Trial Discussion Thread #40

[CriLondon]

Just a quick idea...

Seeing how some here have posted interesting/relevant reasons re: gunshots/bat strikes timing , i thought i'd add:

The more i re-listen to Michelle Burger testimony the more it feels like there was never bat-strikes afterwards. Sound tests that were done were a bit , let's say, un-definitive (if you'll allow me the non-word haha) but , i'm sure many will agree that it is a loud enough sound to be heard at the distance MB was at . Yet she's so adamant she never heard them ...

 

[fox1lady]

Agreed, and think of RS' family here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-uncle-3258916

I think they have been incredibly insensitive bombarding her like that in public. She is way too classy to tell them to "Fook Off" and they see it as perfect photo opportunities.

 

[Feynman]

You are quite right but for bat hits after the gunshots would not the Stipps have reported this in their evidence, ie 3 sets of sounds? I thought they were pretty good witnesses and didn't miss much of what was going on.

But Stipp said 3 gunshots and then 3 more gunshots, and that can't be right.

 

[patCee]

I think they have been incredibly insensitive bombarding her like that in public. She is way too classy to tell them to "Fook Off" and they see it as perfect photo opportunities.

Agreed, and taking advantage when she was a 'captive audience' while they made themselves feel better.

What shocked me the most was the insensitive comments with drawing attention to how the Pistorius' family were feeling, as though their respective grief was equal, as in quid pro quo.

"I am so sorry for your loss.

"We as a family are just as heartbroken for the life that has been lost.

"Like your family we are trying to fight for a life and also for a life that has been lost."

BBM

Breathtaking if it happened as reported.

 

[Hope4More]

Thank you for that link. So......it's all about intention!

From your link:

....In considering the issue of intention to kill, the test is whether the
[accused] foresaw the possibility that the act in question ... would have
fatal consequences, and was reckless whether death resulted or not.....

He goes into the bathroom with a cocked gun with the intention of shooting. He shoots into the door and then there's the pause. Realizing that he's now done for, he makes another intended decision to finish her off.

Let's try this again.
1. He goes into the bathroom with a cocked gun. ...(fact)
2...with the intention of shooting (speculation)
3.He shoots into the door (fact)
4....and then there is a pause ( according to ear witness, so while not pure speculation still can't be presented as fact)
5.Realizing he's done for (100% speculation)
6.he makes another intended decision to finish her off. (speculation as to both state of mind and intent.)

 

[fox1lady]

I didn't know that OP's brother and sister suffer from anxiety. Re UA I do wonder what he's feeling nervous/anxious about. Could it have been the outcome of that day in court re Dr. V. Watching him in court he mostly looked still, calm and measured to me, sometimes with a slight smile, but not anxious. JMO

I noticed whilst Dr V was being cross examined the only time OP looked up from his drawing and gave any sort of expression was the few times that Nel mentioned that OP had been a bad witness on the stand or that his defence was not doing too well. Interesting!

 

[toevlugsoord]

I think most of us are agreed that no one from Netcare told OP to bring Reeva in unless he deliberately downplayed her injuries. I think it's worth a reminder that he doesn't remember what he said to Netcare... but he does remember what they said to him about bringing her in. There absolutely should be a recording of this call somewhere. Why it hasn't been brought up is beyond me.

Especially since Netcare people are on the witness list (for which side, I don't know)!

 

[TorisMom003]

Let's try this again.
1. He goes into the bathroom with a cocked gun. ...(fact)
2...with the intention of shooting (speculation)
3.He shoots into the door (fact)
4....and then there is a pause ( according to ear witness, so while not pure speculation still can't be presented as fact)
5.Realizing he's done for (100% speculation)
6.he makes another intended decision to finish her off. (speculation as to both state of mind and intent.)

Concerning number 4, it was testified by the ballistics expert (I believe it was) that there had to be a pause after the first gun shot because Reeva had to have time to fall into the position for the 3rd and 4th shots to hit where they did. This backs up the ear witness claim of the pause between the 1st shot and the other 3.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I don't think there were any bat hits after the gunshots. The bat may have been used again, but not necessarily to hit the door. If it was used to pry the cracked panel out, this needn't have made much noise.

Sorry Cherwell, that response was not for you. I clicked on the wrong post. it was meant for the two who thought there were bat hits, gun shots, bat hits. Apologies.

 

[soozieqtips]

Agreed, and think of RS' family here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-uncle-3258916

Yes! The comment I was referring to in my last post is in that link.

"We as a family are just as heartbroken for the life that has been lost.

"Like your family we are trying to fight for a life and also for a life that has been lost."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-uncle-3258916#ixzz320UqkJhc
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

I find it hard to imagine why he thought it was a good idea to say that. Just as heartbroken as Reeva's family over her death? After meeting her once? Beggars belief, really.

 

[Interested Bystander]

But Stipp said 3 gunshots and then 3 more gunshots, and that can't be right.

Yes, he has to have mistaken one set as there is no evidence 6 or 7 bullets were fired. I doubt whether we shall ever know as there have been no realistic tests for the Stipps to hear, ie in situ, to confirm which was which. Understandably this could not be done before or during the trial and after is too late.

Which do you think were bat hits/gun shots?

 

[sicknote]

For the life of me I cannot see how it can be proved whether the door was hit by the bat before the shots were fired. If the bat struck the door in different places from the bullets, how could anyone tell? Just because the bat may have been used after the shots causing the crack, it doesn't mean it couldn't have been used before as well.

OP's close neighbours must have slept through the gunshots if the gunshots came first. They seem to be up right after the second bangs. I have to admit, I have never heard my neighbours shooting through a door or hitting the same door with a cricket bat in the middle of the night. Common sense tells me I wouldn't sleep through the gunshots.

If the gunshots were first then you have to believe that Oscar did indeed sit with a dead body for 5 minutes doing nothing. I just can't get my head around that. It is more than sick.

Then we have the screaming from the rest of the neighbours.......

I will be very surprised if Nel states the gunshots were first. If he does then I have to start believing that OP might be telling the truth. That might mean a ghost pulled the trigger of a gun in a restaurant, his ex and mate didn't witness him firing a gun out a sunroof, he was the victim of a drive by shooting, he lied about not knowing if Reeva could work the alarm system or not, Reeva didn't eat a few hours before her death, Reeva never uttered a sound after 9-10pm, he was going to take Reeva to the jewellers, he has night vision, he can sound like a woman and sometimes sound like a woman and man at the same time.........I could go on all night but its a Saturday.

 

[44ALLAN]

-The very moment OP shot his 4th and last bullet (not the last in the gun though), the screaming suddenly stopped. Coincidence? Hmmm.

Hyper vigilant as well fgs................dear me.

Mr Pistorious....................did you fall asleep that night with your head on your girlfriends tummy with your balcony doors open ?

Yes.

But you were scared ................................

Well..............I told her to close them so when I awakened and realised they were open with the fans outside I immediately put my face in my hands with my back to where she was......................:floorlaugh:

 

[Emz73]

Especially since Netcare people are on the witness list (for which side, I don't know)!

I've found this on another forum.
Donovan s jaggs.
Netcare


State witness.

 

[BatGunKick]

Before 3:17am Bat on stumps, then Gun on stumps at 3:17am... then after 3:17am Kick on prosthetics, and all state witness testimony and forensics fit. This is my first post on here (I live in South Africa, and have been following the Oscar Pistorius trial)... Since April we have thought that the crack through bullet hole D is CRUCIAL, and thrilled to see people on here are also considering it. We have a "bat gun kick" theory outlined here fully with timeline and testimony lined up: take a look and let me know if you think it has merit? http://batgunkick.blogspot.com/
You all seem to be as intrigued with this case and I am.

 

[44ALLAN]

I have a question. What window was the ladder under? After Frank came into the picture as residing at OP'S I am curious to know if he assisted Oscar very quickly and moved the ladder to set up the fear factor. Oscar keeps saying he had his eyes on toilet door and the window where the ladder was. Was the ladder right outside the bathroom window?

You have been following the trial right?
Are you suggesting the ladder was actually elongated and had both feet on terra ferma with it's extremities on the sill of a window somewhere in the house ?

Please elaborate as your question has no bearing on the case at present

Apologies for my pompous attitude:floorlaugh:

 

[DebinGA]

After learning of what kind of person he is, I find it hard to believe that he got up to bring the fans in without saying anything to her. He did after all apparently ask her to bring them in before he went to sleep. He claims that she had gone to sleep as well which means the balcony doors were left open whilst they were both asleep.... are we supposed to believe that he would be ok with that?? Hell No ! :twocents:

Ditto OP's being ok with finding Reeva's jeans on the floor, which, being on his stumps, he could have tripped over in the pitch blackness, ... before tripping on the duvet now also on the floor.

 

[44ALLAN]

The brother could be suffering from anxiety because of the fallout to his own career/personal life due to his own killing of a woman. The sister could be suffering from anxiety because she is living in Uncle Arnold's house with OP and knows that her brother killed an innocent, unarmed woman in the toilet because he was very ticked off. I am curious as to when the two other siblings began having their anxiety.

MOO

I wonder if Aimee goes for a pee in the dark?
Or Arnold for that matter....................................

 

[Suthrnqt]

Let's try this again.
1. He goes into the bathroom with a cocked gun. ...(fact)
2...with the intention of shooting (speculation)
3.He shoots into the door (fact)
4....and then there is a pause ( according to ear witness, so while not pure speculation still can't be presented as fact)
5.Realizing he's done for (100% speculation)
6.he makes another intended decision to finish her off. (speculation as to both state of mind and intent.)

Concerning #2, iirc, Dr. V testified to the fact that OP told her he intended to shoot an intruder. This was part of her testimony while Nel was doing his cross.
I think that pretty much wraps up intent.
So, if he intended to shoot an intruder (his version) or he intended to shoot Reeva ( my version) either way intent has been proven and he should be found guilty of murder. Or to put it more eloquently, dolus eventualis.
:moo: :cow: :moo:

 

[Greater Than]

I don't think there were any bat hits after the gunshots. The bat may have been used again, but not necessarily to hit the door. If it was used to pry the cracked panel out, this needn't have made much noise.

Agreed. I should've said bat strikes --> gunshots --> bat used to pry panel out.

Main point is the bat was used both before and after the gunshots. MOO