Trial Discussion Thread #45 - 14.07.3, Day 36

[Viper]

BBM - in his affidavit, he went from having 'mobility' on his stumps to 'limited mobility', and then to running here and rushing there

Im trying to understand the need to change things now. The only explanation that I can come up with is that the DT is in full on desperation mode and the only thing that they have is to play the Sympathy Card for the fact that OP is a double amputee. They truly have gone from mobility and normalcy regarding OPs life to painting the picture that he is an invalid that should have had a wheelchair next to his bed. Dr. D testified that OP is not able to get a glass of water by himself, and yet OP claims to be the 16th fastest man in the world! The plot for the DT story has changed. Desperation. I hope that Nel uses Dr. D and exploits this to its fullest Monday!

 

[soozieqtips]

Im trying to understand the need to change things now. The only explanation that I can come up with is that the DT is in full on desperation mode and the only thing that they have is to play the Sympathy Card for the fact that OP is a double amputee.
They truly have gone from mobility and normalcy regarding OPs life to painting the picture that he is an invalid that should have had a wheelchair next to his bed. Dr. D testified that OP is not able to get a glass of water by himself, and yet OP claims to be the 16th fastest man in the world! The plot for the DT story has changed. Desperation. I hope that Nel uses Dr. D and exploits this to its fullest Monday!

BBM - It's a complete about turn. Dr D is portraying him as pathetically fearful, weak and helpless, scared of loud noises and almost totally immobile without his legs, but OP certainly didn't see himself that way - at least not before the killing. Cheap tricks which I doubt the judge will buy.

 

[Feynman]

Nel argued with Oldwage about this at length. OP said that he ran to the passage. He then moved slowly like a Ninja, but he did say that he ran to the passage. So he ran before he killed her and he ran afterwards, on his stumps. I believe him, too bad Dr. D does not. OP also walked to the bathroom on his stumps to brush his teeth and walked back on his stumps to get back in to bed. Either OP has mobility on his stumps, as he testified that he does, or he does not have mobility on his stumps, as Dr. D wants us to now believe. This is the DT version(s), LOL!

Ah OK, I missed some of this testimony: So running "to the passage" on his stumps is not a point of contention; it's in the record? And is Derman saying all running on stumps is impossible for OP?

Re toothbrushing, I don't think Derman ever said OP can't walk on his stumps.

 

[Feynman]

BBM - in his affidavit, he went from having 'mobility' on his stumps to 'limited mobility', and then to running here and rushing there

Nothing wrong in clarifying "mobility" to "limited mobility" in the affidavit IMO. He doesn't mention running on stumps in the affidavit, but he does mention rushing on them, but I see no real problem with that, i.e., he can allege he hurried - or rushed - as fast as he could on his stumps back to the bedroom without contradicting himself in the affidavit.

 

[kaos]

I think Professor Derman is trying to patch glaring holes that were left in the defence case. From saying that he couldn't run at all to he could run but that his way of running was different to an able bodied person's running. Prof Derman mentioned continually the pain that OP was in when on his stumps (even though at no point during OP's testimony did he state that he was in any kind of pain on his stumps) but he's also covered that base by saying his adrenalin would have overcome that pain.

I wonder if OP was found not guilty and continued on with his career, if he'd be allowed back in to the able bodied Olympics considering the lengths he's now going to, to prove how disabled he now is?

E.T.A Another part of Prof Derman's testimony was that OP has a tremor in his hand which I don't recall that was mentioned in testimony before and this will probably be used as some kind of defence of his itchy trigger finger.

 

[pandax81]

A brief dream I had:

Professor

Isn't it the case that, on your own version, the 2nd startle response of the night must have been experienced by Reeva, when she suddenly heard the accused shouting and swearing and screaming down the passageway? And in all probability this would have triggered a fight or flight response?

And we know, on your version, that she then slammed the toilet door shut. If we think about it, this involves moving and acting quickly. So she didn't have a freeze response am I right? and later on when she moved the magazine rack she didn't have a freeze response then either?

And we know she didn't fight, do you agree?

So on your own expert knowledge her actions must then be characterised as a flee response. This is the point I want to understand: are you really saying to this court that the accused's disability on his stumps physically prevented him from acting in a similar fashion?

 

[kaos]

I still think the date that Prof Derman was glossing over about when he first met OP in chambers is of more importance than Nel is letting on but it must be on the record somewhere if they met in chambers. I'd have thought anybody coming and going into the courthouse for official business has to sign in somewhere and I'd have expected some of OP's legal counsel to have been there so they'd have the date in their own diaries too.

 

[wb180]

Nothing wrong in clarifying "mobility" to "limited mobility" in the affidavit IMO. He doesn't mention running on stumps in the affidavit, but he does mention rushing on them, but I see no real problem with that, i.e., he can allege he hurried - or rushed - as fast as he could on his stumps back to the bedroom without contradicting himself in the affidavit.

Given the amount of contradictions in affidavit and testimony, I guess this is a small point

 

[PrimeSuspect]

A. When startled by a real or imagined threat, individuals have 3 possible primal non-cognitive responses : FREEZE or FLIGHT or FIGHT

B. As time elapses from the initial startle, the response abates and the cognitive brain regains control.

C. Oscar Pistorius has developed from early childhood a dominating fight response because of his vulnerability


Startle #1 - Bathroom window slams open

– OP froze in place for a moment

This reaction is consistent with a freeze response contrary to his dominating fight response

When he 'unfroze', OP was regaining his cognitive mind and his following actions clearly indicate a cognitive process.

– OP rushed as quick as he could to get his gun
– OP grabbed his gun from underneath the bed
– OP removed his gun from the holster
– OP disengaged the safety on his gun
– OP whispered to RS to get down and phone the police
– OP proceeded in the passageway to the bathroom with firearm extended in front of him
– OP shouted for the intruders to get out of his house
– OP shouted for RS to get down and phone the police
– OP stopped shouting as he approached the end of the passageway

These actions must come from a thinking mind : we find precise actions, awareness of possible threat scenarios, self-preservation tactics, etc.

A primal non-cognitive response could NOT have produced such a deliberate and reasoned succession of actions.


Startle #2 - Toilet door slams shut

– OP proceeded into the bathroom entrance pressing against the wall on the left-hand side

This confrontational act of moving towards a perceived threat is certainly consistent with a fight response.

Surprisingly and contrary to his response to the 1st startle, OP did NOT freeze at all.

The following actions seem to indicate the abatement of the primal response and the return of the cognitive mind.

– OP noticed that the bathroom window was indeed open
– OP peered around the corner to where the shower is and saw nobody
– OP retreated a step or two
– OP screamed for RS to phone the police
– OP kept pointing the firearm at the toilet door whilst keeping an eye on the window
– OP stood there for some time

These actions must come from a thinking mind : we find precise actions, awareness of possible threat scenarios, self-preservation tactics, etc.

This indicates that the fight response had indeed abated.

Interestingly, after hearing the bathroom window slam open and hearing the toilet door slam close, OP's dominating fight response ONLY takes him as far as confirming that the bathroom window is indeed open, that the toilet door is indeed closed and waiting patiently for a 3rd startle !!


Startle #3 - Sound of wood moving inside the toilet cubicle

– OP immediately fired 4 shots at the door in rapid succession

This aggressive act is surely consistent with a fight response.

Surprisingly and contrary to his reaction to the 1st startle, OP did NOT freeze at all.

OP's actions immediately after the shooting are quite surprising

– OP's ears were ringing from the gunshots
– OP was scared to retreat because he wasn’t sure if someone was on the ladder or in the toilet

OP is now even more vulnerable than before : he is on his stumps, in the dark and now he is partially deaf… the 3 startles were purely of an auditory nature… now OP could no longer rely on his hearing to perceive threats... his anxiety and fight response should now be even greater !

OP stated that he perceived further threats on a ladder and in the toilet BUT his heightened fight response does NOT make him confront those perceived threats at all !!… how is this possible ?!?

Instead, OP stated that he wanted to retreat, which would be a flight response but couldn't because he was scared, which would be a freeze response.

– OP stood in bathroom for a while
– OP kept on shouting for RS to phone the police
– OP retreated backwards to the bedroom

3 successive startles have led OP to shoot 4 times at a perceived threat but WITHOUT any confirmation or even any indication of the absence of the other perceived threats, OP consciously decides to retreat.

This indicates that the fight response has abated AND with the return of his cognitive mind, OP's choice is to retreat.

Interestingly enough, OP's cognitive mind had also returned after the 1st and 2nd startles BUT OP NEVER choose to retreat on those occasions !?!


Even if one believes every single word of Oscar's latest version of events, Oscar's actions contradict Wayne Derman's expert testimony.

Yet another Defence witness which contradicts Oscar Pistorius… at least the Defence is perfectly consistent and predictable… that's at least something, isn't it ?

Your post is absolutely fantastic!!! When I was reading it, it was like a step by step reenactment of OP's version, you really placed me right in the scene of the crime. I wish you could show this to the PT and they in turn, to the Judge. :clap:
Of course, it never happened but Prof D convoluted fright/freeze/flee/fight narrative pertaining to OP just didn't add up. jmo

 

[wb180]

I've been busy travelling for work and am just catching up on this week. Did this witness say that he didn't read the record of what has gone on thus far and then later say that he had to read the record AGAIN to be sure of what he was talking about?

This psych delay ruined this trial for me. It was going to end before my work went crazy and now I have less time to think about this.

DT should be given a yellow card for faking a GAD

 

[sicknote]

Prof D defined running as both feet being off the ground at the same time. If he then states OP didn't run, can he be wrong under that definition if OP did not have his prosthetics on?

Running around with a loaded gun in one hand while carrying out a number of tasks in the pitch black certainly gives me the impression that OP would be able to fetch a glass of water, pick up a remote control or carry out a number of other tasks in the Profs long list. I look forward to Nel ripping this guy a new @rsehole on Monday.

Nel has been clever leaving the Prof hanging all weekend. Let him stew knowing your also going to have a long conversation with a psychiatrist.

 

[cottonweaver]

Whilst we wait to see what happens next week and whether Nel re-opens his case with a rebuttal witness it’s worth looking at freelance journalist Nick van der Leek’s e books, if you haven’t come across them specifically the one called Resurrection.

There’s a sample here:
http://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Oscar-Pistorius-Reeva-Steenkamp-ebook/dp/B00LHJ1WI2
But it’s a cheap download too.

In Resurrection, in chapter titled Paralympian or Olympian Valid and Invalid? he uses interviews with R.Wicksell ( Oscar’s first agent when he was 17yrs old, before Van Zyl) and an early quote from OP which the author thinks is the key to Op: “I don’t think I’d be doing athletics if I was able-bodied.” This, the author feels, is key to the whole OP dichotomy.

The author then covers the sponsorship deals where he likens OP’s muscle as similar to Tiger Woods- sponsors just asking “yes how much”, dubious decision to appear at Olympics (in his ascendancy in terms of fame,) big money stakes and a growing sense of entitlement, the “circus” and the court battles and an IAAF back-off for cynical reasons.

 

[cottonweaver]

This excerpt also helps to put some PVZ’s Bocelli invites into perspective and speculation around the Feb 13th argument.

http://www.destinyman.com/2014/03/05/oscar-and-reeva-a-loving-couple/

“........But context is important. At the time of the alleged murder, Oscar’s brand was in jeopardy. Despite the numerous M-net billboards all over Johannesburg with Oscar as the face of the channel’s 2013 Academy Awards publicity campaign, he was facing the real possibility that his star was about to slip from its zenith.
Just a few months earlier he had suffered a shock defeat at the 2012 London Paralympic Games by Brazil’s Alan Oliveira – also a double amputee – in the 200-metre final. And, just a few weeks earlier, he had given a lacklustre performance at the able-bodied Olympics he had fought so hard to take part in.
It stands to reason that Pistorius must have been feeling the pressure to keep his celebrity flame burning as brightly as possible.
When Oscar invited Reeva to attend the SA Sports Awards in November 2013 — a few weeks after his disappointing performance — she was initially reluctant to go. She also stalled Heat magazine, which was pushing for a story about the couple, postponing interviews and asking them to delay putting them on the cover.
With her television appearance on the reality show Tropika Island of Treasure imminent, Reeva felt her own brand image was at stake, and wanted more time to figure out the relationship.
But Oscar wanted her in his spotlight.

This difference alone may have been a huge bone of contention between these two very driven, ambitious people. Oscar, used to being at the centre of his romantic relationships, may have become irritated or impatient with the idea of having to step back and respect Reeva’s brand and image needs.” March 2014

I’d love to hear some of the Myers family evidence but doubt we’re going to be that lucky to go that far down the character rebuttal. Nel might just re-open the case to get rebuttal of the dodgy science of Derham’s evidence and to show that OP lied to psych panel. ( As Nel said himself on trial resumption day – certain factual questions may be asked of the report.)

Amputee physiology & vulnerability is the new GAD after all!

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

With OP avoiding gorgeous women left and right and staying with one partner or no partner at all for long stretches of time, it seems to me that he had a fairly low labido, sex drive in life.

Funny you should say that. I was telling my husband last night that I thought exactly the same thing.

 

[Interested Bystander]

If Nel reopens the case he could easily enough call Samantha Taylor and ask all these questions. She was a frequent overnight guest at his home and in his bed and would have all the answers.

 

[JudgeJudi]

WEBSLEUTHS will be offline in about 1 hour for a software upgrade, should last approx. 2 hours. You can get updates about the upgrade during that time on Twitter via #websleuths.

https://twitter.com/search?q=websleuths&src=typd

The search feature will not be fully operational for a couple of days after the upgrade, due to the amount of information on our site. It takes awhile to get that data back online.

Love the new look, but
1. The posters' names are very small
2. The quotes are way too small and as a lot of us here are older, it's very hard to read.
3. "The following Users say thank" is in a huge font IMO and would look better if it was the same size as the names themselves. They just jump out from the page as they're so prominent. JMO

 

[JudgeJudi]

Is there a mobile device viewing option? I could not find it in the user CP. I'm going to go blind reading here, I cannot even see the names of the posters! LOL!!!

I agree. The quotes are very small and as a lot of us here are older it does make it very hard. I'd like the posters' names bigger and "The following Users say thank" made the same size font as the names themselves. Hopefully a mod can have a look at this.

 

[lithgow1]

Agreed!


OT. I absolutely love your avatar! I'm so jealous!

Brazil 2 - Colombia 1 (Colombia's one goal was thanks to a BS penalty kick that they should not have been given! But I digress. :smile

It seems you and I should never discuss politics or football Viper as Colombia's penalty was not the only BS in that game. I've gone from neutral when it comes to Brazil to actively wanting them to lose, an attitude that began with the shocking refereeing in their opener against Croatia and has gotten steadily stronger. With both my teams out, go Costa Rica is my new mantra!

To get back OT and keep out of trouble, I am looking forward to seeing the progression of the Prof's cross-examination. I read a tweet from a journo (Natasha Tay IIRC) that one of Pistorius's 'people' was seen wagging her finger at him outside the courtroom on Thursday arvo - maybe we will see a less belligerant professor come Monday.

 

[lithgow1]

Love the new look, but
1. The posters' names are very small
2. The quotes are way too small and as a lot of us here are older, it's very hard to read.
3. "The following Users say thank" is in a huge font IMO and would look better if it was the same size as the names themselves. They just jump out from the page as they're so prominent. JMO

Agree - it all looks a bit out of whack with some things huge and others tiny. I feel like I've wandered into the large print section of the library, though in a year or two I may be thanking webslueths for that look. But I guess it is always odd when things change and I'm sure that in a week or two I'll have forgotten what it used to look like anyway.

 

[eimajjjj]

If the case is reopened and OP did come back to the stand, one question I'd like answered is the 'breathing' contradiction.

If you guys had one more question or statement to put to OP that Nel didn't, what would it be?