Trial Discussion Thread #48

[Val1]

Roux talked about the missing extension cord and in reply Nel mentioned that things had been removed by the defence (or gone missing, I can't remember the exact words) from the house. I've always assumed that Nel was referring to the phone and the handbag when he said this.

I have a link in my notes, just a moment...

Edit: Monday, 30 June 2014, Session 3 @41:40 min

Nel: We're talking about lots of things that happened, and...

Judge: Well it doesn't assist to go on and on about that.

Thanks!! That was exactly the bit I was referencing and yes, I suppose we could be wrong on what was being referred to but those are the only things that to my knowledge would be relevant to that discussion.

 

[kaos]

Wow I missed that what a jerk. I thought Nel could have made more of the fact that OP's response to why he was using hollow points.
He said it was simply the ammo for his gun when clearly he could have used normal rounds, maybe Nel will nail this fact home in his summation as the question is already in evidence :idea:.

From 1.01 into this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaPV4dc4VcM

 

[liesbeth]

If you are right handed and you fire a pistol, the recoil pushes against your palm and fingers and forces your hand up and to the right.

So four quick, un-aimed, uncontrolled shots (by a right handed person) would make four holes in the door like this...

...and the fact that the third and fourth shots are lower and grouped together shows the pistol was brought under control and that there was a line of sight between the target, the pistol and the eye of the shooter, i.e. deliberate aiming.


Link for original image of the door:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...rius-i-blame-myself-taking-reevas-life-n79746
More info on shooting a pistol:
http://canadianshooter.wordpress.com/holding-the-pistol/

 

[kaos]

If OP never provided the experts that he claimed would show how the scene was "tampered, disturbed and contaminated" does that mean the court must accept that it wasn't? In the same token, if they didn't prove that OP screamed like a woman, does the court then discard those claims and accept that it was Reeva screaming?

 

[808]

If OP never provided the experts that he claimed would show how the scene was "tampered, disturbed and contaminated" does that mean the court must accept that it wasn't? In the same token, if they didn't prove that OP screamed like a woman, does the court then discard those claims and accept that it was Reeva screaming?

Not being an expert I would say that the womanly screaming has been debunked because even the defence witnesses said a man screaming.
The ear witnesses in totality have cut that line of defence out and Oscar himself with his feeble scream "Get the F out of my house!" on the stand.

The tampering has been deftly skewered by Nel when he pointed out the duvet blood spatter and the forensics guys showed the void created by the magazine rack. While there might have been a power board used to charge a camera or watch missing I think anything of import has been shown not to have been moved or tampered with to "frame" OP and screw up his defence.. The photos of the scene were locked in within hours of the crime not to be tailored by the state later. MOO

 

[liesbeth]

Not being an expert I would say that the womanly screaming has been debunked because even the defence witnesses said a man screaming.
The ear witnesses in totality have cut that line of defence out and Oscar himself with his feeble scream "Get the F out of my house!" on the stand.

The tampering has been deftly skewered by Nel when he pointed out the duvet blood spatter and the forensics guys showed the void created by the magazine rack. While there might have been a power board used to charge a camera or watch missing I think anything of import has been shown not to have been moved or tampered with to "frame" OP and screw up his defence.. The photos of the scene were locked in within hours of the crime not to be tailored by the state later. MOO

Agreed. Add to this the fact that Oscar admitted under cross that he could not remember where things were originally placed that particular morning. He even said the allegations of tampering were made after the defence's experts examined police photographs and discovered that Things Were Moved.



http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/Nel-challenges-Oscars-tampering-claims-20140409

April 9, Session 5 from the start. @ 22:30 if you listen carefully you can hear Roux's teeth grinding.

 

[Feynman]

Reeva no doubt stayed overnight at OP’s house many times.

She stayed the night of Feb. 12.

He did not shoot her any prior night - nor on the 12th.

Obviously, she must have used the toilet many times during her stays (including during the night) as well as opening the bathroom window upon occasion?

WHY was this ONE night so very extraordinarily different?!!

WHY was OP “terrified” of a “noise” this ONE night only?!!

Oscar’s fairytale is simply horrid, grade B film noir.

And this man had heard his wife in the loo many times as well.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

 

[liesbeth]

And this man had heard his wife in the loo many times as well.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

This gentleman did not live in a high security complex. He lived in a township. Big difference. Huge.

While we're on the subject...

No one heard him or his wife argue before the shooting.
No one heard the blood curdling screams of a woman in fear of her life.
He did not phone a friend first.
He never told security that everything was fine moments after he'd shot his wife.
(Edit) He only fired a single shot when he saw the door opening.
(Edit) He wasn't screaming for someone to get out of his house, etc.
(Edit) His wife hadn't locked herself in the toilet cubicle with her phone.
After he'd shot his wife this man immediately rushed his wife to hospital, called the police, handed them the gun and gave a statement.
Neither he nor a family member removed evidence, e.g. a phone or a handbag, from the crime scene.
No tweets about a similar incident where he almost shot a household appliance.
No witness saying she was with him on a previous occasion where he heard a similar sound but he spoke to her first before investigating, i.e. no fear/panic/adrenaline induced temporary insanity.
(Edit) He accepted guilt and entered into a plea bargain and got 8 years suspended for C.H.

The same can not be said of Oscar et al.

Edit: The incident happened in 2011. The man said he heard the window sliding open... Interesting, no?


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ad-19-14-04-07-Day-17&p=10423614#post10423614

 

[liesbeth]

http://www.gfsa.org.za/latest-news/resources/

Interactive map showing latest gun violence incidents reported in selected media. Here's a screenshot:

It is estimated that 18 people (500 a month and 6000 a year) are shot and killed and between 18 and 72 survive gun violence every day in South Africa (2009 figures).

To provide a human face and to describe the circumstances of the shootings Gun Free South Africa tracks online media coverage from the following sources:
www.iol.co.za, www.looklocal.co.za, www.mg.co.za and www.news24.com.

It should be noted that this does not represent a comprehensive recording of shootings – less than a third of fatal shootings are featured in these media. Nevertheless the articles do serve to give a name, a face and a story to some of our gun violence victims and survivors, otherwise presented as stark statistics.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Just checking in. Been busy with RL for the past month.
So, any highlights would be much appreciated. TIA

 

[808]

I hope that when OP looks back on the way that he has handled this that he has deep regret for not copping a plea because judging from that case of man shoots wife ... :jail: for OP.
I was thinking they were going for the "Pistorius defence" legal precedence in SA.
(Thanks Liesbeth)

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Yes. Also...if Oscar broke the upper part of the door with the bat (but not the lower panels) at about 03:00 am it would explain a lot of things:

a) The muted light that Mrs Stipp saw through the toilet cubicle's window,
b) the fact that the screams from the cubicle was heard by the Stipps and Burger and Johnson,
c) the escalating intensity of the screams before the shots means Reeva saw him with the gun and
d) this also explains her defensive position (why would she try to defend herself with her arms lifted to her head if she couldn't see Oscar with the gun?)
e) and the fact that she was standing upright (with arms lifted?) in front of the door when the first bullet hit her in the hip. Lastly it makes sense that
e) the crack that runs through the bullet hole on the lower panel was made when he used his hands (as he testified) to tear open the panels.

The most horrifying thing of all is that Reeva must have seen OP with the gun. It's the only thing that explains the light, the audible screams escalating in intensity, her upright position with hands lifted to protect her face.

Outstanding observations, Liesbeth!

The reverse order of the two sets of sounds (bat>gun) - contrary to what defense claims (gun>bat) - really does explain so many things. It’s like a Rubik’s Cube swiftly falling into place.

The more we discuss the second-by-second nitty gritty of events, the more horrific the visual becomes.

Rearranging the time line into a more logical order to align with witness testimonies certainly puts a whole new perspective on that night. It’s even worse than I first thought.

Can you imagine a raging man, literally tearing open a locked door to get to you?!!

(I'm really starting to wonder about the good docs at Westkoppies and their "report".)

OP didn’t just shoot her - he committed unspeakably cruel terrorism.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Somebody asked earlier where OP washed himself, it was at a sink in the kitchen.

Listening to some more of OP, I forgot about him trying to get one over on Nel when asked about the black talons, that Nel had been to the same shooting range as him and used the same gun too - and then said it again obviously trying to rattle Nel. I wonder who told him that info about Nel though?

Wow. That is just how ARROGANT Oscar Pistorius is.

The big difference though, is that Nel never murdered anyone.

(Would you happen to have a handy link to that video and/or audio? Thanks )

 

[kaos]

Wow. That is just how ARROGANT Oscar Pistorius is.

The big difference though, is that Nel never murdered anyone.

(Would you happen to have a handy link to that video and/or audio? Thanks )

It's in post 942

 

[jay-jay]

So, in a nut shell, Botha is supporting the state’s case, while Van der Nest is supporting the defense’s case! LOL I’m getting SO confused!

Bingo! Your analysis is the only logical scenario. I’ve long thought the very same thing. The first set of sounds was the cricket bat, the second set, the gunshots.

This makes the murder all the more horrific.

This means that OP was bashing on the toilet door with the bat (as well as the metal bathtub plate and wall tiles) and yelling/screaming at her for 15 full minutes.

I cannot imagine the pure terror poor Reeva suffered - ALONE, defenseless, in a dark toilet for that length of time. It’s nothing short of torture.

I swear, Oscar Pistorius should be publicly drawn and quartered for the heinous coward he is.

If that is what he did (and I now believe this to be the only possible scenario) that he bashed the door in at 3:00am(ish) and then executed her at 3:15, and now for him to lie in court in the way he has been lying (not to mention the cocky bouts of laughing at Nel), the man is pure evil.

Poor Reeva, bless your heart.

 

[jay-jay]

Can you imagine a raging man, literally tearing open a locked door to get to you?!!

It was bad enough when my abusive ex partner, in a drunken rage, grabbed hold of me by the arms and slammed me up against the kitchen cabinets .. I suddenly realised at that point that he could kill me (he had told me that he had held a knife to a man's throat previously, and that it was only something he would ever do to someone who had annoyed him .. just like I had 'annoyed him' right then), and I screamed like I had never screamed in my life, but even that would've been nothing like actually seeing a gun being pointed at you, so you can see just how loud Reeva would've screamed when she saw that .. hence the neighbours describing it as a 'bloodcurdling' scream. (Fortunately for me, ex abuser was so drunk, and I was reasonably physically fit at the time, I was able to wrestle him to the floor .. but in that split second I really did fear for my life and it's amazing how much scream you can summon up in such circumstances).

 

[liesbeth]

Just checking in. Been busy with RL for the past month.
So, any highlights would be much appreciated. TIA

The State filed their written argument on Thursday. The defence/defense will file theirs on Monday, 4 August. The verbal arguments are scheduled for 7 and 8 August at which time the written arguments may be published. That's it in a nutshell.

Unless you meant on this thread? We gossiped about Frank, Oscar's housekeeper/gardener. Bickered a bit about how the judge will..well, judge. Bickered some more about racism. Oh, and AJ got snipped. Same old, same old. We're all waiting for Thursday.

 

[Fuskier]

Yes. Also...if Oscar broke the upper part of the door with the bat (but not the lower panels) at about 03:00 am it would explain a lot of things:

a) The muted light that Mrs Stipp saw through the toilet cubicle's window,
b) the fact that the screams from the cubicle was heard by the Stipps and Burger and Johnson,
c) the escalating intensity of the screams before the shots means Reeva saw him with the gun and
d) this also explains her defensive position (why would she try to defend herself with her arms lifted to her head if she couldn't see Oscar with the gun?)
e) and the fact that she was standing upright (with arms lifted?) in front of the door when the first bullet hit her in the hip. Lastly it makes sense that
e) the crack that runs through the bullet hole on the lower panel was made when he used his hands (as he testified) to tear open the panels.

The most horrifying thing of all is that Reeva must have seen OP with the gun. It's the only thing that explains the light, the audible screams escalating in intensity, her upright position with hands lifted to protect her face.

Well thought through Liesbeth. Finally a scenario which fits.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Just checking in. Been busy with RL for the past month.
So, any highlights would be much appreciated. TIA

Hi Suthrnqt, They're all due back in court 7 August, I presume 9.30 am SA time.



JOHANNESBURG, FRIDAY, 01 AUGUST – The prosecution in Oscar Pistorius's murder trial has until today to submit its closing arguments to the High Court in Pretoria.

The defence is expected to file its documents on Monday, ahead of the oral presentation of the arguments in court on Thursday and Friday next week.

http://ewn.co.za/2014/07/30/Oscar-Pistorius-Prosecution-to-submit-closing-arguments

 

[liesbeth]

Outstanding observations, Liesbeth!

The reverse order of the two sets of sounds (bat>gun) - contrary to what defense claims (gun>bat) - really does explain so many things. It’s like a Rubik’s Cube swiftly falling into place.

The more we discuss the second-by-second nitty gritty of events, the more horrific the visual becomes.

Rearranging the time line into a more logical order to align with witness testimonies certainly puts a whole new perspective on that night. It’s even worse than I first thought.

Can you imagine a raging man, literally tearing open a locked door to get to you?!!

(I'm really starting to wonder about the good docs at Westkoppies and their "report".)

OP didn’t just shoot her - he committed unspeakably cruel terrorism.

Thank you. A broken door also explains the grouping of the shots.

For the last two shots the pistol was under control. Roger Dixon said that OP must have had line-of-sight (aiming with his eye, the pistol and target in line) for the last two shots. So Oscar brought the pistol down and controlled it. He aimed. At what? Why aim if he couldn't see what was behind the door?