Trial Discussion Thread #48

[Greater Than]

Yes, I also find it ugly .. and it looks pretty cheaply built, too. I was surprised to read that it was sold for around the equivalent of £250K .. well, in the south of England, that would get you a small, two bedroomed, terraced house .. so in terms of monetary value of property, he is no more well off than the majority of people here in the SE. I can't believe the size of his bedroom, either, it's no bigger than mine!

It sold for R4.5m

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/Pistorius-sells-Pretoria-house-for-R45m-20140731

 

[AJ_DS]

BIB - Yeah, but let's not forget that OP didn't make it very easy for them to access the contents of the data in his phone. Not only did he keep it for 10 days, after he turned it over he claimed to either not remember his Apple ID or not remember the password. Your Apple ID is your email address, and not remembering the password is highly unlikely since it is needed to download apps, purchase from iTunes, store data in iCloud, even after a software update you have to enter your Apple ID and password. Moller had to fly with the phone to Apple's headquarters in the U.S. to try to get his ID and/or password. OP was hiding something.

All true… but 3 possibilities :

1. OP tampered with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… tamper successful and undetectable by Apple, specialize software or Police investigators… in which case we will never know what was removed… but WHAT could possibly be so damming that OP would go to all that trouble while risking that the tampering would be noticed ?… we know that OP did NOT premeditate the murder in the sense that he had planed it all out and written step-by-step instructions about it on his phone.

2. OP tampered with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… tamper successful but detectable… surely the evidence of tampering would have been presented in Court by Moller.

3. OP did NOT tamper with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… in which case, the aforementioned steps taken by OP and Police just shows that :

- OP thought something incriminating could contradict his yet unplanned/untold mistaken identity intruder story
- Someone other than OP took the phone (Carl, Aimee, Carice, etc..) for some benign reason or with devious motives to 'protect' OP
- OP did not want to cooperate with police investigation
- Police were suspicious and pursued the tampering suspicion to it's full extent

 

[Greater Than]

If you think about it, EVDM's evidence is probably even more damning than the Stipps' and Burgers'. With the latter, the defence can try their 'man-screams-like-a-woman' absurdity but with EVDM, if there was no evidence of anyone else in that vicinity arguing at 1 in the morning, then it has to be attributed to OP if you take into the totality of the PT's case. The defence have only two options with this evidence: prove EVDM was delusional that night or prove there were other people arguing. They have done neither.

Nah, the argument helps suggest a motive but her bloodcurdling screams mean murder. Her screams (heard by several independent witnesses) prove he knew it was her and not an intruder.

 

[Greater Than]

I thought he said "carpet" meaning the bath mat.

There wasn't blood on the bath mat though.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-court-shown-horror-bathroom-shot-Reeva.html

 

[abstr]

BIB - Yeah, but let's not forget that OP didn't make it very easy for them to access the contents of the data in his phone. Not only did he keep it for 10 days, after he turned it over he claimed to either not remember his Apple ID or not remember the password. Your Apple ID is your email address, and not remembering the password is highly unlikely since it is needed to download apps, purchase from iTunes, store data in iCloud, even after a software update you have to enter your Apple ID and password. Moller had to fly with the phone to Apple's headquarters in the U.S. to try to get his ID and/or password. OP was hiding something.

Not defending anyone but I do not know my password because it is saved on my phone....

 

[eimajjjj]

Nah, the argument helps suggest a motive but her bloodcurdling screams mean murder. Her screams (heard by several independent witnesses) prove he knew it was her and not an intruder.

No, I mean the defence can attempt to (absurdley) explain away the woman screams heard as OP screaming like a woman which fits into DT's version but the only way they can explain away arguing at 1am is accuse EVDM of imagining it or finding proof that other neighbours were arguing. Otherwise there is no place at all for it in DT's version.

 

[Greater Than]

All true… but 3 possibilities :

1. OP tampered with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… tamper successful and undetectable by Apple, specialize software or Police investigators… in which case we will never know what was removed… but WHAT could possibly be so damming that OP would go to all that trouble while risking that the tampering would be noticed ?… we know that OP did NOT premeditate the murder in the sense that he had planed it all out and written step-by-step instructions about it on his phone.

2. OP tampered with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… tamper successful but detectable… surely the evidence of tampering would have been presented in Court by Moller.

3. OP did NOT tamper with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… in which case, the aforementioned steps taken by OP and Police just shows that :

- OP thought something incriminating could contradict his yet unplanned/untold mistaken identity intruder story
- Someone other than OP took the phone (Carl, Aimee, Carice, etc..) for some benign reason or with devious motives to 'protect' OP
- OP did not want to cooperate with police investigation
- Police were suspicious and pursued the tampering suspicion to it's full extent

I have no clue what he was trying to hide. All I'm saying is after he finally turned it over, he withheld his Apple ID and/or password from the investigators. This was intentional and is highly suspicious.

 

[Greater Than]

Not defending anyone but I do not know my password because it is saved on my phone....

Do you have an iPhone? Mine won't let me save my password for security reasons. If you lose your phone and your password is stored you're screwed. My Apple ID is saved, but not my password.

 

[eimajjjj]

All true… but 3 possibilities :

1. OP tampered with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… tamper successful and undetectable by Apple, specialize software or Police investigators… in which case we will never know what was removed… but WHAT could possibly be so damming that OP would go to all that trouble while risking that the tampering would be noticed ?… we know that OP did NOT premeditate the murder in the sense that he had planed it all out and written step-by-step instructions about it on his phone.

2. OP tampered with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… tamper successful but detectable… surely the evidence of tampering would have been presented in Court by Moller.

3. OP did NOT tamper with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… in which case, the aforementioned steps taken by OP and Police just shows that :

- OP thought something incriminating could contradict his yet unplanned/untold mistaken identity intruder story
- Someone other than OP took the phone (Carl, Aimee, Carice, etc..) for some benign reason or with devious motives to 'protect' OP
- OP did not want to cooperate with police investigation
- Police were suspicious and pursued the tampering suspicion to it's full extent

Or he genuinely forgot his password!!

I don't know my Apple ID password and I know I have one. Different to the iPhone pin-code.

 

[AJ_DS]

No, I mean the defence can attempt to (absurdley) explain away the woman screams heard as OP screaming like a woman which fits into DT's version but the only way they can explain away arguing at 1am is accuse EVDM of imagining it or finding proof that other neighbours were arguing. Otherwise there is no place at all for it in DT's version.

Exactly !

OP's version is based on sleeping between 10PM and 3AM in a quiet and dark household.

Anything deviating from that destroys OP's version

An argument, a loud TV movie or even passionate sex heard in that house between 10PM and 3AM directly contradicts OP's version of events.

 

[AJ_DS]

I have no clue what he was trying to hide. All I'm saying is after he finally turned it over, he withheld his Apple ID and/or password from the investigators. This was intentional and is highly suspicious.

I agree about the intentional… I believe it was not the Apple-ID that was withheld but the passcode to access the phone

Suspicious ?… to necessarily… the State charged him with murder… why would OP want to cooperate with them ?… I wouldn't !

 

[AJ_DS]

Or he genuinely forgot his password!!

I don't know my Apple ID password and I know I have one. Different to the iPhone pin-code.

Agreed… I don't know most of my passwords… they are stored on the computer (in my keychain)

But I believe it was not the Apple-ID that was not given… but the 4 digit passcode to access the phone… this posed a problem with detecting deleted or tampered data with the extraction software XRY… that's why they went to Apple-USA… a few days before the Trial started, XRY released a new version of their software which could detect deleted or tampered data even if the phone was passcode protected… that latest version was also used to do the final extraction of OP's phone.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Wonder who was in 284, what they saw/heard and why they did not testify ?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55999&d=1406813769.

Yes. Wouldn't that house be directly across from OP's bedroom balcony? Does anyone know who lived there and if they testified at all?

 

[Cherwell]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55999&d=1406813769.

Yes. Wouldn't that house be directly across from OP's bedroom balcony? Does anyone know who lived there and if they testified at all?

No, these neighbours weren't mentioned anywhere to my knowledge.

People probably wouldn't hear anything if the air conditioning was running and the windows were closed. Or of course there may have been nobody at home that night.

 

[Greater Than]

I agree about the intentional… I believe it was not the Apple-ID that was withheld but the passcode to access the phone

Suspicious ?… to necessarily… the State charged him with murder… why would OP want to cooperate with them ?… I wouldn't !

If you have told the truth and you have nothing to hide why would you NOT cooperate with them?

Not to mention, hindering an investigation is against the law.

 

[AJ_DS]

If you have told the truth and you have nothing to hide why would you NOT cooperate with them?

Not to mention, hindering an investigation is against the law.

Nope, sorry…

Having truly nothing to hide and telling the Truth to police investigators does NOT guarantee you that the State will not charge you and attempt to prosecute you for a crime you truly did not commit.

Many plea bargains to lesser charges are struck because the State bullies defendants with purposefully exaggerated charges.

Also, Police investigators are not always honest and/or infallible… nor are witnesses... and the State relies on said investigators and witnesses to provide evidence… so innocent people do get prosecuted too.

Refusing to cooperate with a police investigation is NOT against the Law… it is a fundamental right !

 

[4MrsB]

All true… but 3 possibilities :

1. OP tampered with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… tamper successful and undetectable by Apple, specialize software or Police investigators… in which case we will never know what was removed… but WHAT could possibly be so damming that OP would go to all that trouble while risking that the tampering would be noticed ?… we know that OP did NOT premeditate the murder in the sense that he had planed it all out and written step-by-step instructions about it on his phone.

2. OP tampered with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… tamper successful but detectable… surely the evidence of tampering would have been presented in Court by Moller.

3. OP did NOT tamper with the content of his phone before surrendering it to Police… in which case, the aforementioned steps taken by OP and Police just shows that :

- OP thought something incriminating could contradict his yet unplanned/untold mistaken identity intruder story
- Someone other than OP took the phone (Carl, Aimee, Carice, etc..) for some benign reason or with devious motives to 'protect' OP
- OP did not want to cooperate with police investigation
- Police were suspicious and pursued the tampering suspicion to it's full extent

I am convinced 100% that OP (and "cohorts") attempted to tamper with his phone (no idea what it was he was trying to hide or alter). NO ONE removes an important piece of evidence from a murder scene (which OP's primary iPhone was) . . . AND DOESN'T RETURN IT for 11 days, unless he has a reason. If it was an innocent mistake, that phone would have been back in the hands of the state immediately - as soon as OP, Uncle Arnold or whoever, had advised their attorney (who was on the case that morning) - and their attorney would have pick that phone up so quick & notified the state they had it. The state would NOT have said, "or just hang onto it Roux & bring it in with you at the next hearing".

OP or his Uncle immediately hired a PR person (ended up being a team of 6-8 people if I recall correctly) and had him flown in from UK (guy that was some big name with "The Sun"). That had to cost a pretty penny. So if OP spares no cost in immediate PR control starting within a day or two of shooting/murder....then I would think they would have the funds to find a person/co capable of deleting (permanently & undetectable) info they need "gone". The Pistorius family resources seem to have few limits and very deep pockets (look at all they accomplished for OP with regards to Olympics, blades being allowed, etc).

If they took phone to review it and saw that nothing needed to be deleted, altered, . . . nothing incriminating - they would NOT have held onto it for 11 days. They could have gleened from it all the info needed and be done with it in a matter of hours, or maybe minutes. To hold onto it for 11 days looks & sounds too incriminating, so why risk it if nothing to gain?

So I say...something altered or removed. Likely removed. But if state had been able to retrieve this info, surely they would have included testimony from experts on what & how info retrieved, along with it's significance.

11 DAYS...just too weird. But why was this not hashed out while OP on stand? Nel would have had a field day of fun. My thoughts, . . . perhaps something hashed out behind closed doors with judge before trial, so not rehashed again. Some agreement or declaration by OP that was worked out behind closed doors and approved to by Judge M.

 

[jay-jay]

It sold for R4.5m

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/Pistorius-sells-Pretoria-house-for-R45m-20140731

Yes, R4.5m converts to 250, 000 British pounds.

 

[foxbluff]

BIB - I don't think so. I think Nel would've specifically asked OP if Frank was in the house if he was planning to use it as a lie against him. I'm not sure about SA, but in the U.S. closing arguments aren't evidence. Nel can only argue and tie together evidence that is already before the court.

I totally agree with your 4th sentence.

However, I suspect the evidence Nel needs is already before the Court:

#1 - Nel has OP's testimony saying that he and RS were the ONLY people in the house that night.

#2 - IF any other witness testified that Frank was in the house that night [OR] if someone knew that Frank was in the house that night (i.e. the police officer Frank told he was sleeping there that night), AND that "someone" made a deposition to that effect AND IF said deposition was entered into evidence, imho, that would constitute evidence.

 

[AJ_DS]

I am convinced 100% that OP (and "cohorts") attempted to tamper with his phone (no idea what it was he was trying to hide or alter). NO ONE removes an important piece of evidence from a murder scene (which OP's primary iPhone was) . . . AND DOESN'T RETURN IT for 11 days, unless he has a reason. If it was an innocent mistake, that phone would have been back in the hands of the state immediately - as soon as OP, Uncle Arnold or whoever, had advised their attorney (who was on the case that morning) - and their attorney would have pick that phone up so quick & notified the state they had it. The state would NOT have said, "or just hang onto it Roux & bring it in with you at the next hearing".

OP or his Uncle immediately hired a PR person (ended up being a team of 6-8 people if I recall correctly) and had him flown in from UK (guy that was some big name with "The Sun"). That had to cost a pretty penny. So if OP spares no cost in immediate PR control starting within a day or two of shooting/murder....then I would think they would have the funds to find a person/co capable of deleting (permanently & undetectable) info they need "gone". The Pistorius family resources seem to have few limits and very deep pockets (look at all they accomplished for OP with regards to Olympics, blades being allowed, etc).

If they took phone to review it and saw that nothing needed to be deleted, altered, . . . nothing incriminating - they would NOT have held onto it for 11 days. They could have gleened from it all the info needed and be done with it in a matter of hours, or maybe minutes. To hold onto it for 11 days looks & sounds too incriminating, so why risk it if nothing to gain?

So I say...something altered or removed. Likely removed. But if state had been able to retrieve this info, surely they would have included testimony from experts on what & how info retrieved, along with it's significance.

11 DAYS...just too weird. But why was this not hashed out while OP on stand? Nel would have had a field day of fun. My thoughts, . . . perhaps something hashed out behind closed doors with judge before trial, so not rehashed again. Some agreement or declaration by OP that was worked out behind closed doors and approved to by Judge M.

I get what you are saying… but

- Moller received from Hilton Botha the 4 phones on 15 February

- Moller determined the numbers of both iPhones and both Blackberries

- Moller had to leave Pretoria

- Moller asked a colleague to fill out the forms for a section 205

- The forms need to be approved and signed by a Judge before submitting them to Vodacom

- The forms were sent to Vodacom

- Vodacom made the necessary queries and produced the data

- Vodacom sent the data back to Moller

- Moller analyzed the data and realized that a phone was missing : the 0020 phone

- Moller contacted the State to inform them that the 0020 phone was missing

- The State contacted the Defence and asked them to produce and surrender the 0020 phone

… all this takes time… so I don't know how much time elapsed between the asking for the phone and the giving of the phone.

Furthermore, it does NOT take 11 days to erase/tamper with the data on a phone.

The 0020 phone left OP's house on that morning, an expensive watch, Reeva's purse, … and who knows what else… however, none of it was deemed significant enough to make a big deal out of it in OP's Trial.