Trial Discussion Thread #48

[Mr Fossil]

OP said BOTH of his phones were on the left-hand side bedside side table

OP said that after unsuccessfully trying to use Reeva's phone, he went into the bedroom, grabbed BOTH phones, took them BOTH into the bathroom… but used only one of them, the personal 0020 one.

This is a crock… because :

- neither of his phones would be charging
- both charging cables (bedroom and kitchen) would be unused
- contradicts Sam Taylor's testimony about OP's habits
- who needs 2 phones to make phone calls

I suspect that one of OP's 'trips' back upstairs was so he could plant the 4949 phone in the bathroom

Agreed. I think he may well have switched the phones and, if this is the case, there must have been a reason e.g. something he didn't want found that was on the phone (hence its subsequent temporary disappearance). I wonder what. Interesting too that he had the presence of mind to think of this.

 

[AJ_DS]

Agreed. I think he may well have switched the phones and, if this is the case, there must have been a reason e.g. something he didn't want found that was on the phone (hence its subsequent temporary disappearance). I wonder what. Interesting too that he had the presence of mind to think of this.

One must remember OP was in a panicked state… he wasn't thinking clearly… he was not able to analyze the situation correctly… he was reacting on impulse.

The fact is that Moller figured out quite easily that OP had 2 phones and that one of them was missing.

We can see that OP was not successfully trying to hide the 0020 phone BEFORE he planted the 4949 phone in the bathroom :

- OP called Stander, Netcare, Baba on the 0020 phone

- These calls would be an integral part of the evidence and the phone used to make them would also be an integral part of the evidence

Also, we can see that OP was not successfully trying to hide the 0020 phone AFTER he planted the 4949 phone in the bathroom :

- OP plugged the 0020 phone it in the kitchen charger

- OP used the 0020 phone in front of police officer from 3:55AM to 4:11AM

… consequently, I do not believe there was anything truly incriminating on that phone… OP may have thought it a good idea at the time to switch phones BUT in the end, it only served to contradict the evidence and make his version even less credible because he was forced to explain why the unused and turned off 4949 phone was found in the bathroom.

 

[Mr Fossil]

One must remember OP was in a panicked state… he wasn't thinking clearly… he was not able to analyze the situation correctly… he was reacting on impulse.

The fact is that Moller figured out quite easily that OP had 2 phones and that one of them was missing.

We can see that OP was not successfully trying to hide the 0020 phone BEFORE he planted the 4949 phone in the bathroom :

- OP called Stander, Netcare, Baba on the 0020 phone

- These calls would be an integral part of the evidence and the phone used to make them would also be an integral part of the evidence

Also, we can see that OP was not successfully trying to hide the 0020 phone AFTER he planted the 4949 phone in the bathroom :

- OP plugged the 0020 phone it in the kitchen charger

- OP used the 0020 phone in front of police officer from 3:55AM to 4:11AM

… consequently, I do not believe there was anything truly incriminating on that phone… OP may have thought it a good idea at the time to switch phones BUT in the end, it only served to contradict the evidence and make his version even less credible because he was forced to explain why the unused and turned off 4949 phone was found in the bathroom.

Why do you think he planted the 4949 phone e.g. why would OP have thought it a good idea?

 

[44ALLAN]

I was looking at the bathroom photos too and think there's also bloody towels in the bath and you're right, I don't remember him saying he was trying to stem the bleeding in there. They may be ones that Carice Stander had used but I can't believe she'd have been allowed to put them upstairs once the police were on the scene but then again, they did allow OP to wash his face and hands!

E.T.A Just had a look again and didn't pay attention to the wording on the link of the photo but it does say that Van Staden put them into the tub.

Yes but they are the crime scene photos taken by Van Staden before anything was touched.
I doubt the police at the scene would allow OP to clean himself in the bathroom and even if they did he was washing the blood off himself.
So how and why are the towels on the bathroom floor covered in blood?
Has this been covered before and I've missed it?

 

[Interested Bystander]

I'm curious to know what, if anything, was physically found on OP's 0020 iPhone (the one that went missing for 11 days). Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think any evidence was heard in court about any specific data extracted from this phone other than that "the phone was also analysed and the data downloaded by Captain Moller" and whatever was found was submitted as evidence and also provided to the defence. As Lisa suggests in her blog, I wouldn't be surprised if the disappearance of the phone and what was (or wasn't) found on it features in Nel's closing argument.

What has surprised me is that whoever took this phone has not been 'hauled over the coals'. I thought it was illegal to remove anything from the crime scene and any phone must have been considered very important with respect to possible evidence.

I suppose it is too late now but if Roux knew about it and also knew who took it, or had access to it, I think he too deserves a public ticking off from the judge and if members of the Pistorius family were involved with taking the phone AND Reeva's handbag (as we think) they too need to be hauled up in front of the beak. How dare they take her handbag! I imagine they had a good root around to make sure there was no incriminating evidence in it. One wonders if RS kept a diary in it. That could have been very incriminating.

 

[AJ_DS]

Why do you think he planted the 4949 phone e.g. why would OP have thought it a good idea?

2 basic possibilities :

1. OP did NOT plant the 4949 phone… something happened that night which led the phone to end up in the bathroom… e.g. Reeva grabbed it downstairs when fleeing from OP and brought it upstairs in the bathroom before OP shot her… it ended up under a towel and OP did not realize the 4949 phone in the bathroom would be a problem in his version of events

2. OP did plant the 4949 phone… in a panicked state, trying to cover up a crime scene, one does stupid things that end up doing more harm than good… in this case it did all harm and no good.

The State has from Vodacom the detailed billing of the phone… and all the internet activity is logged not only in the phone's application data but also on the social media server and the recipient's phone application data and the recipient's detailed billing… so it's not an easy thing to completely 'disappear' a phone or something incriminating on said phone.

 

[eimajjjj]

OT but Pistorius in his defence rendition of what happened: "I took the small fan the floor fan, I placed it pretty much just inside the room"

No you didn't.

 

[kaos]

2 basic possibilities :

1. OP did NOT plant the 4949 phone… something happened that night which led the phone to end up in the bathroom… e.g. Reeva grabbed it downstairs when fleeing from OP and brought it upstairs in the bathroom before OP shot her… it ended up under a towel and OP did not realize the 4949 phone in the bathroom would be a problem in his version of events

2. OP did plant the 4949 phone… in a panicked state, trying to cover up a crime scene, one does stupid things that end up doing more harm than good… in this case it did all harm and no good.

The State has from Vodacom the detailed billing of the phone… and all the internet activity is logged not only in the phone's application data but also on the social media server and the recipient's phone application data and the recipient's detailed billing… so it's not an easy thing to completely 'disappear' a phone or something incriminating on said phone.

Is that phone the one with the cover off?

 

[AJ_DS]

Is that phone the one with the cover off?

No…

The detached cover phone that was found near the gun is Reeva's phone

The 4949 phone was found near the bathtub under a towel

 

[808]

BiB… totally agree : if Frank spoke, he could never again find a similar job.

The manner in which you phrase your post seems to suggest you believe Frank was walking freely about the house as one of OP's friend would.

I was under the impression Frank was a not a butler but a handyman/gardener… I don't see such an employee being allowed to roam inside OP's house.

Nevertheless, the fact remains we have absolutely no evidence Frank was even there… all we know is that Frank was present outside OP's house, fully dressed, at around 2:30AM when the Standers arrived (IIRC).

No one testified as per seeing Frank inside the house or come out of the house or go into the house.

Does anyone have info on where exactly on OP's property Frank lived, slept, ate, etc… ?

http://www.malawivoice.com/2014/05/06/malawian-housekeeper-oscars-house-night-shot-girlfriend/

Adjacent ground fl kitchen ..

 

[kaos]

No…

The detached cover phone that was found near the gun is Reeva's phone

The 4949 phone was found near the bathtub under a towel

That dismisses my idea that he could have been trying to to get the sim card out but then realised he never had enough time so had to abandon it.

 

[AJ_DS]

http://www.malawivoice.com/2014/05/06/malawian-housekeeper-oscars-house-night-shot-girlfriend/

Adjacent ground fl kitchen ..

Makes sense… servants quarters are usually found near the kitchen.

So it would be like this :

 

[AJ_DS]

That dismisses my idea that he could have been trying to to get the sim card out but then realised he never had enough time so had to abandon it.

Also, the sim card on that iPhone requires a small tool like a needle or paperclip to remove it

… and no point really in removing (or swapping) the sim cards… it would be immediately discovered and indicate tampering of evidence which would be damming in the 'intruder mistaken identity' story.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

BiB… totally agree : if Frank spoke, he could never again find a similar job.

The manner in which you phrase your post seems to suggest you believe Frank was walking freely about the house as one of OP's friend would.

I was under the impression Frank was a not a butler but a handyman/gardener… I don't see such an employee being allowed to roam inside OP's house.

Nevertheless, the fact remains we have absolutely no evidence Frank was even there… all we know is that Frank was present outside OP's house, fully dressed, at around 2:30AM when the Standers arrived (IIRC).

No one testified as per seeing Frank inside the house or come out of the house or go into the house.

Does anyone have info on where exactly on OP's property Frank lived, slept, ate, etc… ?

LOL most definitely not, haha. Imo he would be in a seen and not heard type of situation. OP has said in an interview that Frank kept the house clean, I can't imagine he actually cleaned the house but maybe he was responsible for hiring housecleaners etc. and overseeing their duties.
Frank had a room that comes off the kitchen.

Just found this -

-----------------------------------------

Frank Chiziweni is understood to have slept in the domestic quarters next to Pistorius's kitchen on the ground floor of his home.

The housekeeper has been referred to in several profiles of Pistorius, a world-famous Paralympic athlete, written before the shooting.

In one, written in October 2011, he is reported to be asked by Pistorius, who addresses him as “brother”, to bring him his prosthetic legs. In another, written the following year, he is referred to as a “live-in caretaker who keeps his home spotless”.

A policeman who arrived at the scene an hour after the shooting confirmed Mr Chiziweni had been sleeping in a room off the kitchen and was awake when they arrived.

He said the man spoke good English. “We said to him, you were here. What did you hear?” the policeman said, adding that he had replied: “No, no, no, I didn't hear anything”.

He said police had been unconvinced by his response: “We were all asking ourselves how he could not have heard anything,” he said.

The housekeeper is the second member of South Africa's massive but often invisible domestic worker class to be referred to in the murder trial.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10809123/Oscar-Pistorius-trial-Malawian-housekeeper-was-at-Pistorius-home-on-night-of-shooting.html

 

[AJ_DS]

That dismisses my idea that he could have been trying to to get the sim card out but then realised he never had enough time so had to abandon it.

Also, the sim card on that iPhone requires a small tool like a needle or paperclip to remove it

… and no point really in removing (or swapping) the sim cards… it would be immediately discovered and indicate tampering of evidence which would be damming in the 'intruder mistaken identity' story.

 

[eimajjjj]

Makes sense… servants quarters are usually found near the kitchen.

So it would be like this :

View attachment 55997

Which houses of those who testified can we see on that photo?

 

[Giles]

I have a question for anyone who understands how the legal process works:

If Oscar is found guilty of Murder (the judge rules out that he intentionally killed Reeva, but finds him guilty of murdering whoever was in the toilet) what could happen if he decides to appeal? I understand that his conviction could be reduced to one of Culpable Homicide or even acquittal, but could Premeditated Murder be put back on the table? Could it be dangerous for him to appeal a lesser charge?

 

[AJ_DS]

LOL most definitely not, haha. Imo he would be in a seen and not heard type of situation. OP has said in an interview that Frank kept the house clean, I can't imagine he actually cleaned the house but maybe he was responsible for hiring housecleaners etc. and overseeing their duties.
Frank had a room that comes off the kitchen.

Just found this -

-----------------------------------------

Frank Chiziweni is understood to have slept in the domestic quarters next to Pistorius's kitchen on the ground floor of his home.

The housekeeper has been referred to in several profiles of Pistorius, a world-famous Paralympic athlete, written before the shooting.

In one, written in October 2011, he is reported to be asked by Pistorius, who addresses him as “brother”, to bring him his prosthetic legs. In another, written the following year, he is referred to as a “live-in caretaker who keeps his home spotless”.

A policeman who arrived at the scene an hour after the shooting confirmed Mr Chiziweni had been sleeping in a room off the kitchen and was awake when they arrived.

He said the man spoke good English. “We said to him, you were here. What did you hear?” the policeman said, adding that he had replied: “No, no, no, I didn't hear anything”.

He said police had been unconvinced by his response: “We were all asking ourselves how he could not have heard anything,” he said.

The housekeeper is the second member of South Africa's massive but often invisible domestic worker class to be referred to in the murder trial.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10809123/Oscar-Pistorius-trial-Malawian-housekeeper-was-at-Pistorius-home-on-night-of-shooting.html

Thanks… but it raises a lot of questions

1. what about the house alarm ?… if Frank moved in that house or entered/exited the house it would trigger the alarm

2. what about noise ?… if Frank would go to the bathroom during the night, that would make noise which would surely freak OP out

3. if Frank was there he surely went upstairs after hearing the gunshots and the screaming… but this would have triggered the alarm since OP only deactivated the alarm a while after the shooting.

 

[eimajjjj]

I have a question for anyone who understands how the legal process works:

If Oscar is found guilty of Murder (the judge rules out that he intentionally killed Reeva, but finds him guilty of murdering whoever was in the toilet) what could happen if he decides to appeal? I understand that his conviction could be reduced to one of Culpable Homicide or even acquittal, but could Premeditated Murder be put back on the table? Could it be dangerous for him to appeal a lesser charge?

From what I understand, you can challenge either the verdict or the sentence but it's only the sentence that has the danger of being extended. The appeal courts would be looking to either uphold or throw out the charge, not change it:

"Should he appeal against sentence only his sentence can be made worse yes. Should he only appeal against the conviction the judges cannot make a different finding on sentence in the event that the appeal against conviction is set aside."

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistorius-trial/2014/07/pistorius-guilty-can-appeal-win/

 

[Giles]

From what I understand, you can challenge either the verdict or the sentence but it's only the sentence that has the danger of being extended. The appeal courts would be looking to either uphold or throw out the charge, not change it:

"Should he appeal against sentence only his sentence can be made worse yes. Should he only appeal against the conviction the judges cannot make a different finding on sentence in the event that the appeal against conviction is set aside."

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistorius-trial/2014/07/pistorius-guilty-can-appeal-win/

Thanks eimajjjj, that clears things up and makes a lot of sense. Cheers!