Trial Discussion Thread #51 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

[PrimeSuspect]

I've forgotten what that means.

"Intent can occur in three forms: dolus directus, dolus indirectus and dolus eventualis.

"Intent in the form of dolus eventualis or legal intention, which is present when the perpetrator objectively foresees the possibility of his act causing death and persists regardless of the consequences, suffices to find someone guilty of murder.

"Dolus directus, on the other hand, known as intention in its ordinary grammatical sense, is present when the accused’s aim and object is to bring about the unlawful consequence, even should the chance of its resulting be small."

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/D/DolusEventualis.aspx

 

[zwiebel]

andrew harding (@BBCAndrewH) tweeted at 10:59am - 11 Sep 14:

this is key - did #OscarPistorius know his actions might result in killing. Difference here between murder and culpable homicide. (https://twitter.com/BBCAndrewH/status/509989651617435648)

 

[ColonelMustard]

If Judge Greenland is happy, I'm happy. So far, m'lady is seeming appeal-proof imo. I'm a little worried that she's holding Dr. Voerster's GAD opinion in abeyance until later.

Dr V's testimony on GAD was eliminated by the psych hospital panel eval, I thought. They said no GAD, no nothing in the DMS-V at the time of the incident.

 

[eimajjjj]

Relax guys! This was expected, brush away the controversial state evidence and hone in as it goes on.

He'll be found guilty and that he intentionally shot at Reeva. The judge can't go for the reasons for the verdict right away and isn't it more satisfying that it will be OP's own testimony that will sink him.

Plus, she hasn't completely thrown away all witness statements, only that there is an element of difficulty in judging their accuracy.

Have faith, a slow U turn will make itself clear!!

 

[momrids6]

I've forgotten what that means.

The South African Court of Appeal held that mens rea in the form of dolus eventualis is an elastic concept. It can range from bordering on negligence (culpa) on the one hand to dolus directus on the other. However, the test always remains whether the accused person subjectively foresaw the possibility of the death of the deceased and associated himself therewith.[SUP]1

[/SUP]

Dolus eventualis is sometimes said to be the criminal law equivalent to the tort concept of gross negligence.


http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/D/DolusEventualis.aspx

 

[MeeBee]

I don't think OP will be acquitted.

It's seems clear so far that My Lady doesn't believe OP's claim of firing accidentally or firing without intention.

It was also clear to me that this was a very important point to her. While she may feel OP's version is a little closer to the truth, I think she's having trouble reconciling this and realized OP was trying to explain something away a little too hard.

 

[zoran]

I like the way she is handling this. Go milady! great job under immense pressure IMHO

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Dr V's testimony on GAD was eliminated by the psych hospital panel eval, I thought. They said no GAD, no nothing in the DMS-V at the time of the incident.

that's what I thought too CM.

 

[ColonelMustard]

yes. if she has a simple pared-down reasoning and removes all the grey areas, this also removes all the grounds for appeal.

As I'm calming down, I can see that you're right. They said she sticks to the law 100%.

Buuuuuut....

 

[kaydono]

Regardless what the outcome of this trial is....... his crying and carrying on is BEYOND ANNOYING.

 

[momrids6]

As I'm calming down, I can see that you're right. They said she sticks to the law 100%.

Buuuuuut....

Buuuut we may be watching him compete at the next Olympics?

 

[ColonelMustard]

Early on, Reeva's sister said she wouldn't come to court any more because she knew very quickly that he was a "disgusting liar."

 

[buntspecht]

Did the Judge just say that the grouping of shots did NOT indicate he shot 'without' thinking (as he said he did?)

Am I the only one who still think she's going to find him guilty?

no you are not the only one. We wait.
Judge will come back in the judgment to the INCONSISTENCY of not thinking, and then thinking not to shoot too high

 

[MeeBee]

Will she take into account OP's potential fear of the person behind the door?

 

[Giles]

I've forgotten what that means.

Deleted

Someone already did a far better job than I did... [emoji4]

 

[AlwaysShocked]

I think she said a few times that he fired without thinking........she has family and wants to keep them...moo

The Judge was quoting Oscar's testimony when she "said that" a few times. That was not her opinion, that was just her quoting his testimony.

What she did say that WAS indeed her opinion, is that one of his statements indicates that he WAS thinking about the placement of his shots, and therefore was thinking at the time he fired. She said she would be getting back to that point later.

And no, susieq, you are not the only one to think he is going to be convicted. But it sounds like it won't be premeditated murder. Which I still think it should be, because I still do NOT think all of that screaming was Oscar. The description of "blood curdling screams, like someone was in fear for their life, which reached a crescendo and then ended" was NOT Oscar, in my opinion.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Are we in a long break or a short one?

 

[K.T]

Makes sense. He was right there, they were not. The argument could have been coming from anywhere. When security drove by, he didn't hear an argument. It's just common sense.

Nooooo it's not common sense, it gives the impression that in South Africa an angry argument with a female, that keeps a witness awake for an hour in the middle of the night, and then shortly after there is a killing of a female partner, are sounds that can be completely disregarded.

As if angry hour long arguments are unimportant....think on that as an ominous sign for society.

If someone had found and hunted out that argument it's clear IMO than Steenkamp would be alive or at least something very different could have happened.

 

[minor4th]

I predict the judge will reject any assertion that the shooting was an accident or that there was no intent to fire the weapon at the person behind the door, but she'll find that it is reasonably possibly true that Oscar thought there was an intruder in the toilet coming out to harm him.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Diagram time.