Trial Discussion Thread #52 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

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The stories have started. Just advertised on Sky News. Daily Mirror is publishing an article "My Life of Hell with Oscar Pistorius" before judgement tomorrow. I think it is ST but I cannot find anything yet on the web.


Apparently she said "I had to hide his gun as I was so scared of him".
 
I think she bought into the gun fired before he could think

She clearly bought everything he said. She quotes his testimony as if it is factual and any other witness could not be right. I mean it is shocking how she has dismissed everything else and sets OP up as the only truth teller in the courtroom.
 
IMHO we have the right to be critical, given that there are posters here on Websleuths who seem to have had a better grasp of the timeline than the Judge hearing the case. After all, an exceptional young woman has lost her life due to catastrophic injuries inflicted upon her by the Defendant and I believe that the Judge had an absolute responsibility to get the detail right, for the sake of the victim and her family.

To avoid any misunderstanding: I think OP should get at least dolus eventualis and it's terrible Reeva became a victim of this strange man.
However, what I would like to understand: why do quite a lot of people here say Reeva was "exceptionnel"? I mean, was she more exceptionnel than you and me?
 
Yes, I wonder if it was for dramatic reasons or whether she was about to embark on a new line of judgement which she wouldn't have time to finish today.

This is crazy...she has had one month and today many times she stopped and acted as if she was rewriting and rephrasing as she went. Must say not impressed at all.
 
I wonder which son of a gun he's looking at... he's watching OP like a hawk! Can only imagine what's going through his mind looking at the guy who has taken the life of his princess Reeva
 
This is crazy...she has had one month and today many times she stopped and acted as if she was rewriting and rephrasing as she went. Must say not impressed at all.
I gotta say, I think she was more exceptional in a lot of ways than me... I need to up my game ;)
 
The stories have started. Just advertised on Sky News. Daily Mirror is publishing an article "My Life of Hell with Oscar Pistorius" before judgement tomorrow. I think it is ST but I cannot find anything yet on the web.


Apparently she said "I had to hide his gun as I was so scared of him".

Yes it is indeed Samantha Taylor, claims she had to hide his gun and he used to make her sit on the naughty step.
 
BBM... I totally agree.

I'll take that a step further: imho had OP only shot her once, he would never have been charged... everybody would assume it was a tragic accident.

hypothetical, but if he had only shot her once, the first shot hit her in the hip, she would have survived to tell the full story of the evening. which leads on to why there was a pause and 3 more shots. moo
 
Does anyone on here play Chess?

If so, you will know where I am going with this. If not - go do some Sleuthing.

We might be witnessing a very complex game here.

The end game will not be tomorrow in my opinion. The extended lunch break today was significant.

Judges do not cut short summations & ignore testimony by accident, unless they understand the end game.

Talk about stating nothing but aimless innuendos !!! ;)

1. Why do you believe the extended lunch break significant ?

2. Why do you believe Masipa cut short summations ?

3. Why do you believe Masipa ignored testimony ?

4. What do you believe Masipa's end game is ?

5. Is it your contention that Masipa is playing some sort of legal game which she is betting will not end with her verdict and her sentence but instead will continue to play out in another Judge's courtroom and will result in a different but planned outcome ?
 
I have no idea why she rejected it, but check the Part 2 video on this page at roughly 12:15
http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/
She is describing Dolus Eventualis verbatim.
Thanks so much, will go check it out. I understand it now as she said a reasonable man would have thought and considered his actions of which OP had the time to do ...but he didn't so concluded he was not a reasonable man. Lol, I've been so confused about this reasonable man business and where it fits in but think I got it. Will check link too. :)
 
Yes it is indeed Samantha Taylor, claims she had to hide his gun and he used to make her sit on the naughty step.
Aggg really????? And she couldn't mention this in court! Sickening!
 
She clearly bought everything he said. She quotes his testimony as if it is factual and any other witness could not be right.
I mean it is shocking how she has dismissed everything else and sets OP up as the only truth teller in the courtroom.
Especially as he was the one with the most to lose and the one who was caught lying on numerous occasions.

I'd have thought that alone would have made his evidence unreliable.
 
A TRULY radical idea occurred to me this morning:


Masipa intentionally sabotaged the verdict knowing that it would guarantee it’s appeal.


Here’s my case:


I believe that, even if she is a judge, as a black (woman) in SA in 2014, Masipa is particularly vulnerable on every level imaginable. I don't think it would have take much to “influence” her, and I don't mean money. All it would have taken would be certain look directed her way by the "right" person at the "right" time — JUST as abusers do in cases of domestic violence.


Based on her reading last night of the first part of the verdict, I personally believe “something” has gone on here. It just doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t make sense. We’ll see tonight, but my guess is that "they" decided — for the sake of OPs (imagined) future... sponsorships, etc., ...that the public would be more forgiving of him if he gets a CH verdict (with their “guaranteed” slap on the wrist sentence - Masipa decides) than if he “walked". I mean, he did shoot and kill her, that's not in dispute.


Had this trial not be televised, I think something like that might actually have worked. Who would have known any different? Not me. But this WAS televised and that will make all the difference in the world. I personally believe his imagine future is just that - imagined. No matter what happens I think his future -- personally, professionally, and socially is toast.


After hearing all the evidence and testimony, a huge number of people in the world (not all) following this trial believed - and still believe - he is guilty of murdering Reeva in cold blood. Based on that belief, what was read out last night was inexplicable - to many here (not all) and, apparently, also to many legal experts in the larger world.

Adding to my personal shock in all of this, has been my belief in the opinions of many experts "in the know" who have, throughout the trial, consistently commended Masipa's abilities as a judge. "Don't underestimate her." "She's fair, she's meticulous, she always follows the letter of the law."



So what happened? Both things might be true at the same time.

I think she “got the look". I also think she's proud, intelligent, woman, and a skilled barrister who has had to fight for every gain she has ever made in her life. It's entirely possible - and it would hardly be for the first time in her life in white dominated SA - that she would have had to suck it up, swallow her pride, and Kow-tow (bow down) to those in power.



She might have had to do it, but she would resent it to the very core of her being. What better way to follow the letter of the law (of the jungle) by handing down the verdict you were "suggested" to deliver but at the same time standing up for the spirit of the law (actual law), than by playing dumb -- "dumb like a fox."


The only option she would have had with any chance of getting away with it would be to OVERPLAY her hand. She put on her OWN show - sounding serious and measured and thoughtful and thorough while at the same time saying things that were so contradictory and, frankly, inexplicable, that, with intention, she sabotage the case so that it would HAVE TO BE appealed.


One example of the dynamic I'm describing would be the long-known practice among US blacks - slaves and domestic workers - forever cast in the role of cooks in white families, who regularly spit into the food before they served it.


I know my idea is absurd (in Roux-speak "abzuuurd") but, to me, all things taken into consideration, at this point, absolutely nothing else that I can think of makes any sense.
 
Its interesting to note that unlike the OJ trial , the major news channels have accepted the verdict to the point where its no linger headlining on the BBC or CNN

Its the major news channels that will fuel public opinion and not sites like WS. In that regard I doubt whether Milady will change her sentencing gauged on public opinion
 
Yes it is indeed Samantha Taylor, claims she had to hide his gun and he used to make her sit on the naughty step.

Sounds somewhat like a gun-toting control freak. All a bit late IMO but I guess she couldn't say anything whilst the case was live.

We can probably expect all sorts to creep out of the woodwork but I think ST will be believed by most. Yes, she is a woman scorned but that does not mean she tells lies. Maybe she will successfully warn off other young ladies who may think of living with OP and end up dead like Reeva.

Assuming he will be banned from carrying a gun, I somehow think once he is free (and that could be tomorrow) he will not abide by the penalty. I expect there will be a few policemen on his tail requesting to check his car :).

I wonder whether Carl carries a gun?
 
Severely pisses me off no end that Masipa, right out of the gate, sneakily declared electronic records as more reliable than actual witnesses - establishing this as the basis for her rationale. This was a profoundly disingenuous and misleading action.

Electronic records and witnesses are TWO very different types of evidence - one simply cannot replace the other. She essentially equated call logs with human beings - and inexplicably gave favored credence to cold data, which, interestingly, has no bothersome, annoying eyes or ears. One is then free to manipulate and interpret that data at will - even though call logs do not present WHAT was seen, heard or discussed. Electronic records only tell PART of the story, not the whole story.

This move was a deceptive, self-serving, devious sleight of hand by Masipa, as by pronouncing electronic records more “reliable”, she could simply DISREGARD any witness testimony she didn’t like, as if it never existed. This is fraudulent and duplicitous in the extreme.

With one bold declaration, multiple credible state witnesses were simply vaporized into the ether, no longer troubling her chosen verdict.

To dismiss and discredit one ear witness as “unreliable”, “mistaken” or “not credible” for demonstrably logical reasons is plausible - to dismiss and discredit FIVE ear witnesses basically all telling the same story is highly suspect.

I believe Masipa had her mind made up before she ever stepped foot in that courtroom (even if only sub-consciously).

Contrary to what some might believe, judges can absolutely be fallible and biased, not to mention lazy, irrational, devious, manipulative and vindictive. SA is not special - court cases around the world are littered with their victims, wholesale judicial wreckage that destroys lives and families, mind-numbing stupidity and worst of all, bad case law that becomes even worse legal precedence.
 
To avoid any misunderstanding: I think OP should get at least dolus eventualis and it's terrible Reeva became a victim of this strange man.
However, what I would like to understand: why do quite a lot of people here say Reeva was "exceptionnel"? I mean, was she more exceptionnel than you and me?
Everyone who is fortunate is exceptional to someone else. And many who are lost to violence become exceptional to those following their stories who come to love them. Reeva was beautiful, yes, but intelligent, warm, funny and very loving. She was known for having a huge heart. She helped to financially support her parents. She also had, in her own right, overcome a lot in her own lifetime. To her friends and family, she was very simply adored.

Much of that - who she really was - gets lost in the glare of Oscar's celebrity.

I learned more about Reeva through the neighbour's testimony - whom she hugged upon first meeting him - then I did in days of Oscar's testimony. Friends and family have been kind enough to share a bit of her with the world so for those who would like to know personally what made Reeva exceptional to those who loved her, and by extension a great many strangers, here you go:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/oscar-pistorius-trial-who-was-reeva-steenkamp-9725299.html
http://www.theweek.co.uk/people/osc...eva-steenkamp-life-and-death-of-a-rising-star
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28349666
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHm4926kp9Y&index=8&list=PLb65SDpapC_mjY_PG2P9cOKFjPPMlx41C
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_alyttK-MU&index=3&list=PLb65SDpapC_mjY_PG2P9cOKFjPPMlx41C
http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-...-reeva-steenkamp/story-fndir2ev-1227056060759
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2013-02-14-the-reeva-i-knew/#.VBIa8fldVKM
 
One last throw of the dice tomorrow, justice for reeva and family seems far off at the moment, i just hope the judge has made it difficult for a appeal due to the ruling today totally ignoring witnesses experts and legal stuff to come down on op with max jail time of 15 yrs for ch, alas it wouldn't surprise me if it was 15 days the way its gone today
A lot can happen to a person in 15 days. Just saying
 
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