Trial Discussion Thread #52 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

[Cloen]

Thought you may be interested in this article , - another Legal Expert , Martin Hood also says he was shocked at Judge Masipa's Verdict so far. He is a Sky News guest Pundit i've always found to be very good so far on this Trial.

http://www.mid-day.com/articles/legal-experts-express-shock-at-oscar-pistorius-ruling/15595153

 

[Mr Fossil]

"Pistorius and dolus eventualis: do the facts support the finding?"

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...o-the-facts-support-the-finding/#.VBIdKvldV8F

 

[Susza]

Everyone who is fortunate is exceptional to someone else. And many who are lost to violence become exceptional to those following their stories who come to love them. Reeva was beautiful, yes, but intelligent, warm, funny and very loving. She was known for having a huge heart. She helped to financially support her parents. She also had, in her own right, overcome a lot in her own lifetime. To her friends and family, she was very simply adored.

Much of that - who she really was - gets lost in the glare of Oscar's celebrity.

I learned more about Reeva through the neighbour's testimony - whom she hugged upon first meeting him - then I did in days of Oscar's testimony. Friends and family have been kind enough to share a bit of her with the world so for those who would like to know personally what made Reeva exceptional to those who loved her, and by extension a great many strangers, here you go:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/oscar-pistorius-trial-who-was-reeva-steenkamp-9725299.html
http://www.theweek.co.uk/people/osc...eva-steenkamp-life-and-death-of-a-rising-star
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28349666
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHm4926kp9Y&index=8&list=PLb65SDpapC_mjY_PG2P9cOKFjPPMlx41C
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_alyttK-MU&index=3&list=PLb65SDpapC_mjY_PG2P9cOKFjPPMlx41C
http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-...-reeva-steenkamp/story-fndir2ev-1227056060759
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2013-02-14-the-reeva-i-knew/#.VBIa8fldVKM

BBM Thank you. That's what I meant by saying "exceptional like you and me".

 

[foxbluff]

hypothetical, but if he had only shot her once, the first shot hit her in the hip, she would have survived to tell the full story of the evening. which leads on to why there was a pause and 3 more shots. moo

Sorry... I wasn't being clear. I meant had he killed her with just one shot it would have been accepted as a tragic accident and no charges brought against him. imo

 

[Sherbert]

I gotta say, I think she was more exceptional in a lot of ways than me... I need to up my game

Same

 

[Cloen]

As far as I saw it today ,the Judge contradicted herself and believed a Defendant who also Contradicted himself.
When she watched Oscar on the Stand during Nel's Cross-exam,there were moments I thought she'd say "There there"
Gross miscarriage of Justice, and I hope Nel seeks to put things right ,starting with Appealing the Charge.

Why didn't the Judge go to his House and see that toilet and Oscar's bedroom and passageway in situ, because when the Reporters went there this week, and Ulrich Roux, the Defence Lawyer was with one of them, and they said it really hit them how small that toilet was,- and they said no way could Oscar have not foreseen that he would probably kill the person behind it when he fired those shots.

Oscar knew it was Reeva, but the Judge has decided she doesn't want the responsibility of giving the Bladerunner a lengthly prison sentence. Tomorrow she will be under even more scrutiny now, so let's hope she makes the correct decision.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Geezus. I don't know if I can stand Round 2.

My head is still spinning, trying desperately to make the tiniest sense of Masipa's judicial chaos.

I'm already exhausted, got 4.5 hours sleep and now have a freakin splitting headache.

What an unmitigated disaster.

I wonder how she will feel about the reception of her judgement, indifferent, irritated, concerned? The SA DPP apparently are at a loss to explain her decisions. Much like many of us .

 

[WilliamMunter]

Thought you may be interested in this article , - another Legal Expert , Martin Hood also says he was shocked at Judge Masipa's Verdict so far. He is a Sky News guest Pundit i've always found to be very good so far on this Trial.

http://www.mid-day.com/articles/legal-experts-express-shock-at-oscar-pistorius-ruling/15595153

Regarding the photo in this article, I wonder if that's the charm bracelet Pistorius said he bought her?

 

[jay-jay]

To avoid any misunderstanding: I think OP should get at least dolus eventualis and it's terrible Reeva became a victim of this strange man.
However, what I would like to understand: why do quite a lot of people here say Reeva was "exceptionnel"? I mean, was she more exceptionnel than you and me?

I'm not sure they have said that, have they? She was obviously a very bubbly person who loved life, but basically the main reason why people want her to get justice is because of the hell she went through that night, and not because we all think she was 'exceptional' or any kind of saint/angel .. I'm sure she probably had her faults just like any of the rest of us .. just a normal person, really .. and normal people like her, and the many other women who are regularly killed by their partners, deserve justice and they deserve to have their stories told and heard, in order that people can learn from them and in order that this kind of abuse against women can be stopped, or at least reduced, at some point in the future. With the kind of attitude that Masipa is currently displaying is giving the green light to men to continue killing their wives and girlfriends without any comeuppance at all .. disgusting (sorry, gone off on a bit of a tangent there .. but I'm so cross and thoroughly disgusted with her!)

 

[Tink]

I haven't posted much but I have followed the trial pretty closely. I too am very disappointed with the verdict and with the Judge's reliance on OP's testimony. I worry that he will get off with nothing but a slap on the hand and the message that "you can get away with murder."

 

[Sherbert]

As far as I saw it today ,the Judge contradicted herself and believed a Defendant who also Contradicted himself.
When she watched Oscar on the Stand during Nel's Cross-exam,there were moments I thought she'd say "There there"
Gross miscarriage of Justice, and I hope Nel seeks to put things right ,starting with Appealing the Charge.

Why didn't the Judge go to his House and see that toilet and Oscar's bedroom and passageway in situ, because when the Reporters went there this week, and Ulrich Roux, the Defence Lawyer was with one of them, and they said it really hit them how small that toilet was,- and they said no way could Oscar have not foreseen that he would probably kill the person behind it when he fired those shots.

Oscar knew it was Reeva, but the Judge has decided she doesn't want the responsibility of giving the Bladerunner a lengthly prison sentence. Tomorrow she will be under even more scrutiny now, so let's hope she makes the correct decision.

Exactly. Even in minor neighbour disputes in the UK, the Judge will often want to come and inspect the locus. I was very surprised that Milady didn't request a site inspection in such a high profile murder trial.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Debora Patta @Debora_Patta  12h
#OscarTrial Judge says OP couldn't have made up the defence that he thought he shot his girlfriend thinking she was burglar so quickly

What a bizarre declaration.

Lies can be long-range and complex (i.e. propaganda) - or instant (on the witness stand). One doesn’t need a plan and mission statement to LIE.

Of course OP could create a story on the fly. When you know you’re gonna be up for murder, you get creative real fast. In fact, considering the bloody scenario he created, an “intruder” was the ONLY remotely plausible “version” available to him.

Just by this one outlandish statement alone (never mind all her other convoluted, cherry-picking nonsense), I seriously question Masipa’s fitness for the bench.

 

[Interested Bystander]

What a bizarre declaration.

Lies can be long-range and complex (i.e. propaganda) - or instant (on the witness stand). One doesn’t need a plan and mission statement to LIE.

Of course OP could create a story on the fly. When you know you’re gonna be up for murder, you get creative real fast. In fact, considering the bloody scenario he created, an “intruder” was the ONLY remotely plausible “version” available to him.

Just by this one outlandish statement alone (never mind all her other convoluted, cherry-picking nonsense), I seriously question Masipa’s fitness for the bench.

That is ludicrous. It is one of the most commonly produced alibis in SA in an attempt to avoid doing life after killing someone. He was probably rehearsing it as he was pulling the trigger.

 

[soozieqtips]

What a bizarre declaration.

Lies can be long-range and complex (i.e. propaganda) - or instant (on the witness stand). One doesn’t need a plan and mission statement to LIE.

Of course OP could create a story on the fly. When you know you’re gonna be up for murder, you get creative real fast. In fact, considering the bloody scenario he created, an “intruder” was the ONLY remotely plausible “version” available to him.

Just by this one outlandish statement alone (never mind all her other convoluted, cherry-picking nonsense), I seriously question Masipa’s fitness for the bench.

It's ridiculous. OP had two options. He could say he killed Reeva after an argument, or he could say he thought she was an intruder and that's how he ended up killing her. How long did Masipa think it would take to come up with one of those two options? OP had to think fast, and he didn't have a lot of excuses to come up with. So he took the obvious option (rather than admit murder) and said he thought she was an intruder. Then all he had to do was to repeat the same words to anyone who showed up at the house, and wait for five days to get his affidavit sorted out. Why on earth Masipa would think he came up with the intruder story too quickly for it to be false is skewed logic to me.

 

[vanatos]

The main problems i have with Masipa.

1. Throwing out eyewitness testimony wholesale
I just don't see how you can do that.

2. Accepting Oscar's version because she believes no one could make up a lie so fast and Stipp (or whoever) saw him crying and thought it was genuine.
This compounds (1), multiple eyewitness testimony confirm a female screaming, this is thrown out, but arbitrarily just believing Oscar's version
because some people saw him cry after killing someone, this is less subjective and more reliable?

3.load gun, go down corridor, pump 4 bullets into bathroom:
This is not intention to kill, huh? exactly how then do you test intention to kill? obviously if i pump someone with less then 4 bullets, i should always get off a murder charge.

 

[Sherbert]

Here are a couple of excerpts from the SA appeal case Combrink v The State (2011) regarding dolus eventualis.

'In an appeal to the Supreme Court of Appeal, it was held that, accepting the evidence of the witness, the appellant (who was a very good marksman) must subjectively have foreseen, when he aimed the second shot at the same place as the first, the possibility that the bullet could ricochet after striking a stone or some other object and in the process strike the deceased. Regardless of that foreseeable possibility, he went on to shoot. He was therefore guilty of murder, the intention being dolus eventualis.'

'Subjective foresight, like any other factual issue, may be proved by inference. To constitute proof beyond reasonable doubt the inference must be the only one which can reasonably be drawn. It cannot be so drawn if there is a reasonable possibility that subjectively the accused did not foresee, even if he ought reasonably to have done so, and even if he probably did do so.

As already stated, in the present case Combrink fired the second shot knowing that the bullet might fatally strike the deceased. In my view he is
guilty of murder, the intention being dolus eventualis.'

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2011/sca2011-116.pdf

IMO 'even if he probably did so' may throw a bit of a spanner in the works, but the rest of the judgement supports a finding of dolus eventualis in the OP case.

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

Call me cynical, but there were perhaps only a number of people on this site who would spot my post and as expected, one of the most balanced since my time as a Member since May this year, has.

My answers AJ:

Talk about stating nothing but aimless innuendos !!!

1. Why do you believe the extended lunch break significant ? There was an interjection by the State which delayed the proceedings.

2. Why do you believe Masipa cut short summations ? The State had just made it clear she could not deliver her intended verdict

3. Why do you believe Masipa ignored testimony ? Who can say? It is baffling that she can say OP is a bad witness & believe him, but say that neighbours with no axe to grind cannot be trusted.

4. What do you believe Masipa's end game is ? Your best question, which allows me to ignore the next. Appeals against Murder are easy and often upheld before retrial. Appeals against CH are more difficult & mean that there is the chance of an increased sentence. However, no-one is surprised when an immediate custodial sentence is handed out for CH.

5. Is it your contention that Masipa is playing some sort of legal game which she is betting will not end with her verdict and her sentence but instead will continue to play out in another Judge's courtroom and will result in a different but planned outcome ? See Q4 Response

OP is still Goosed IMHO

 

[AJ_DS]

Call me cynical, but there were perhaps only a number of people on this site who would spot my post and as expected, one of the most balanced since my time as a Member since May this year, has.

My answers AJ:

OP is still Goosed IMHO

Flattery will get you nowhere with me… but keep on trying dear !

Thanks for the answer !

 

[TartLemon]

In SA, can the judge do any private investigation of the facts of the case before rendering a verdict? In US, if the jury does, it is grounds for a mistrial or appeal.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Here are a couple of excerpts from the SA appeal case Combrink v The State (2011) regarding dolus eventualis.

'In an appeal to the Supreme Court of Appeal, it was held that, accepting the evidence of the witness, the appellant (who was a very good marksman) must subjectively have foreseen, when he aimed the second shot at the same place as the first, the possibility that the bullet could ricochet after striking a stone or some other object and in the process strike the deceased. Regardless of that foreseeable possibility, he went on to shoot. He was therefore guilty of murder, the intention being dolus eventualis.'

'Subjective foresight, like any other factual issue, may be proved by inference. To constitute proof beyond reasonable doubt the inference must be the only one which can reasonably be drawn. It cannot be so drawn if there is a reasonable possibility that subjectively the accused did not foresee, even if he ought reasonably to have done so, and even if he probably did do so.

As already stated, in the present case Combrink fired the second shot knowing that the bullet might fatally strike the deceased. In my view he is
guilty of murder, the intention being dolus eventualis.'

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2011/sca2011-116.pdf

IMO 'even if he probably did so' may throw a bit of a spanner in the works, but the rest of the judgement supports a finding of dolus eventualis in the OP case.

Thank you for that. The problem I have with Masipa over this issue is that she contradicts herself as soon as she starts speaking about CH where she clearly states that he must have known he was likely to have killed someone. How on earth can he not foresee killing someone when pumping 4 bullets into a small cubicle, which then precludes him from a verdict of dolus eventualis, and yet needs to be aware of the risk of doing so to meet the criteria for Masipa to find him guilty of CH. (I know we haven't quite got there yet but that looks like where we are going). Doesn't stack up to me.