Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[Fuskier]

Robyn Curnow
@RobynCurnowCNN
National Prosecuting Authority tells CNN they're disappointed #OscarPistorius wasn't convicted of premed murder. But they respect decision


From inside the courtroom:

Robyn Curnow
@RobynCurnowCNN
National Prosecuting Authority says they will wait until after the sentencing to decide if they will appeal. #OscarPistorius
Sep. 12, 2014ReplyRetweetFavorite

by emily.smith 7:49 PM

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4

 

[Mr Fossil]

"NPA disappointed with Oscar ruling"

http://citizen.co.za/241826/npa-disappointed-oscar-ruling/

 

[sleuth-d-]

True. Masipa has found that he should have foreseen death, but didn't. Surely, this means he's way too dangerous to be granted bail?

another great point that nel could have put forward.

 

[Sherbert]

It beggars belief that it was unanimous. It's too bizarre for my liking.

I may be wrong, but my gut tells me that the female assessor was quite vocal in defence of OP and the others went along with it. Pure speculation, of course, but I think I read that she has a special interest in psychology.

 

[Emz73]

So who thinks he'll be given bail, taking in mind he doesnt think about the consequences when hes fearfull of somebody attacking him.(according to the judge) After all this hes going to be a great deal more fearful than before!!!

 

[mirage1]

another great point that nel could have put forward.

arguing over bail is a token issue. she will clearly give him bail regardless now its clear she believed his comical story, that it was all an accident.

 

[Jim Kirk]

Yeah sentencing isn't going to be today.

 

[Trooper]

I recall Oscar's first day in the witness box, his wretched snotty sobbing , his poofy wailing but most of all I recall him and his sudden , newfound hatred and disgust with guns. His 'deep love' for guns was remarked upon by at least two witnesses in the stand, Rens, and I think, Fresco... 'I hate guns now'.. he sobbed, ' I hate them, '....

lets' hope he doesn't take up archery..

 

[K.T]

Why? Objective vs Subjective when it's the same instance. It's one or the other, at least you'd imagine.

This point about "subjective" and "objective" seems very important in the technicality of dolus eventualis: Article posted previously by law professor Pierre De Vos about his view on these terms

In 2013 Judge Fritz Brand reminded us in the Humphreys case that it is not sufficient for the state to show that the accused should (objectively) have foreseen the possibility of fatal injuries to convict him or her of murder on the basis of dolus eventualis. The state must show that the accused actually foresaw the possibility of his actions killing someone (in this case, the person – whomever it might have been – behind the toilet door). It is not about what a reasonable person would have foreseen.

In this case the judge found Pistorius did not actually (subjectively) foresee as a possibility that he would kill the person when he pumped four bullets through the door.

For me the puzzling part of the judgment is the reasoning employed by Masipa to come to this conclusion. Among others, she found that all the evidence suggests he was truly distressed about having killed Steenkamp. How could he subjectively have foreseen that he would kill her if after the fact he were so distressed?

But although this might show that he did not subjectively foresee that he would kill Steenkamp, it says nothing about subjectively foreseeing that he would kill who he had thought was an intruder hiding behind the door.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...o-the-facts-support-the-finding/#.VBK9nefd2BA

 

[Jake18]

I am lost and it has to be attributed to the finer points of SA Law Perhaps:

Sunroof weapons charge-
"Fresco was not an impressive witness at all when he gave evidence on this count," she said. "In fact he was proved to be a dishonest witness."

but then-
"It is the opinion of this court that Mr Darren Fresco answered frankly and honestly all the questions put to him, accordingly he is discharged from prosecution for the offence specified in the indictment as count three," she says.

Dolus Eventualis:
"This court has already found that the accused can not be found guilty of murder dolus eventualis.
"It could not be said that he foresaw that either the deceased or anybody else for that matter might be killed when he fired the shots at the toilet door"

but then:

"A reasonable person therefore in the position of the accused with a similar disability would have foreseen that possibility that whoever was behind the door might be killed by the shots and would have taken steps to avoid the consequences and the accused in this matter failed to take those consequences."

I am certain you all covered this already. This is where I will be forever confused and disheartened by this verdict.

I genuinely feel like I've fallen down the rabbit hole.

It sounds like an appeal by the State could be upheld though.

 

[mister happy]

OP in a holding cell waiting for sentencing. Found guilty of culpable homicide. We're preparing ourselves for no jail time.

Wait.. I thought sentencing would take place 2 or 3 weeks from now. ?

 

[zwiebel]

Court due to recommence any minute now.

 

[K.T]

Nel should have stated that a bail or societal risk is that negligent gun expert Pistorius' current home contains a large collection of guns.

 

[sleuth-d-]

So.... according to Masipa, anyone in SA can now set up a secure hold in their basement and store all the guns and ammunition they like, invite anybody they like to use it. How on earth is this not animus to possess? To draw a parallel with co-robbers carrying a gun, or returning a lost gun in the street, is just one more bizarre nail in the coffin.

yes the parallels didn't seem very, parallel. why was she using examples involving guns?

 

[JudgeJudi]

She just disregarded Eventualis on the same grounds she just seemingly said he was guilty of negligence!

What I've been hearing is that the main difference between CH and eventualis is that eventualis is gross negligence.

IMO CH would have been negligently firing 1 shot, and 4 would be grossly negligent in that tiny little room. He could and should have known that someone was likely to be killed.

 

[Jamtart]

So Carl Pistorius is in Wild Beast mode? I think his tweet is vaguely threatening, and entirely inappropriate for a family member of a man currently applying for bail in a culpable homicide case.

https://mobile.twitter.com/erinmarisabates/status/510359080771518464/photo/1

What are horrible family they are. 2 young women dead, one nephew cleared of CH, the other convicted and Uncle giving everyone the thumbs up this morning on his way into court. Threatening anyone who speaks out against them. OP telling people not to worry about him going to jail because he always wins....really? Shooting someone dead is 'winning'? Disgraceful.

 

[Summerfun]

This is not the verdict I wanted. But somehow I cannot see the pre meditated murder he was charged with. I do not think he planned it.

 

[zwiebel]

Whoop explaining that the moment a verdict was brought in, bail lapsed, and that's why OP had to go straight into custody.

I'm personally thinking his bail will be extended as there's very little flight risk now he has been found not guilty of murder, despite what Nel hinted.

 

[salberg7]

The Pistorius "boys" are so irreverent, immature, ignorant & self absorbed. Why would Carl feel the need to tweet at all at this crucial time? Do they think that their opinions are so important that they have no respect for for appropriate timing & decorum that they actually have to compose a tweet during court? Obviously not. CNN reporting OP is guilty of culpable homicide & will follow with an update on possible sentencing. I am satisfied with CH, I never thought it was premeditated. I hope he gets *some* jail time as IMO it is a serious crime, Reeva lost her life. OP has proven he is very careless with firearms. I hope they take his gun license away as well.

 

[believe09]

I agree that in the current court environment, bail is inevitable.