Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[KarenUK]

They just don't know how to behave responsibly, do they?

What a family, eh .. and how proud they must be that those two brothers, Oscar and Carl, are both guilty of having killed a woman each. That family needs to be avoided at all costs, they are some sort of curse.

Cursed, or dangerous?

 

[pandax81]

Count 4: Masipa has made error in law. On such a charge, there is presumption of possession with detention, and it does assist the court that the state could not link it to the father despite efforts to do so. A guilty verdict should have been returned and there should be an appeal by the state.

Firearms Control Act, 2000

PRESUMPTIONS

Presumption of possession of firearm or ammunition
117. (2) Whenever a person is charged in terms of this Act with an offence of which the possession of a firearm or ammunition is an element, and the State can show that despite the taking of reasonable steps it was not able with reasonable certainty to link the possession of the firearm or ammunition to any other person, the following circumstances will, in the absence of evidence to the contrary which raises reasonable doubt, be sufficient evidence of possession by that person of the firearm or ammunition where it is proved that the firearm or ammunition was found—
(a) on residential premises and the person was, at the time—
(i) in control of such premises; or
(ii) over the age of 16 years and ordinarily resident at such premises;

 

[PrimeSuspect]

but he knew someone is behind the door.

yes, but that someone was Reeva. I know it doesn't make sense. She was a human being, even if it was an intruder, it's still a human being, OP shot 4 bullets to kill, but Masipa doesn't see it that way. That's how I am understanding it. IOW, I don't understand. :thinking:

 

[sleuth-d-]

Let's hope Masipa's reputation for tough sentencing holds strong. I think a lot of people who are unhappy now would feel justice had been served if he received a maximum sentence for CH.

yes, i would agree with that. to me it would show that she has done the maximum possible within the law, as she understood it, and as the case was presented to her.

[then ws can have a long discussion on how the case could have been presented better, timelines/netcare/frank/missing phone/bat first/etc... ]

 

[jay-jay]

Let's hope Masipa's reputation for tough sentencing holds strong. I think a lot of people who are unhappy now would feel justice had been served if he received a maximum sentence for CH.

I will never feel that justice has been done, regardless of whether he gets the max sentence for CH, because it has not been acknowledged and officially recorded that he knowingly killed Reeva that night after an argument .. which is most definitely what happened, no question about it.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I almost forgot, criminal lawyer William Booth also said he disagreed with the verdict on the ammunition. He said it was one thing to have either a gun or ammunition and you were going to take them to the cop shop to register or whatever it is, but that it was an entirely different thing to store either of those things for years. He reminded the viewers that OP's father did not sign an affidavit that OP was holding this ammunition for him.

I'd really like to see him get max for CH but I can't believe that will happen now. As someone else said, it's all about the law, not about justice.

 

[Viper]

Good morning friends! I'm just now joining the party/funeral. Has Masipa kissed OP on his *** yet (LOL!), or is she still putting on a show for the rest of us that are expecting justice from her Court? What's happening?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

That tweet seems to have been quickly deleted but it's too late as the picture was captured. Hope Nel turns up with a copy of it to show Judge Masipa at the bail hearing after lunch.

https://mobile.twitter.com/carlpistorius

I hope so, OP and Carl act like little boys instead of men. Wth?!

 

[mirage1]

Amazes me how a high court judge could be so naive or stupid to believe someone firing 4 shots into that toilet door could not foresee the possibility he could kill the person inside. What can a prosecution do in the face of such a mind set? To me it was proven without doubt he intended to kill someone, but he could not even get done on the lesser standard of murder. So sad.

 

[Trooper]

Good morning friends! I'm just now joining the party/funeral. Has Masipa kissed OP on his *** yet (LOL!), or is she still putting on a show for the rest of us that are expecting justice from her Court? What's happening?

what's happening is Oscar is about to swan off into the sunset , is what, Vipey.. its too incredible and beyond words for me..

 

[Giles]

I will never feel that justice has been done, regardless of whether he gets the max sentence for CH, because it has not been acknowledged and officially recorded that he knowingly killed Reeva that night after an argument .. which is most definitely what happened, no question about it.

Well, there must be some question about it because of the verdict that has been given.

I do agree that Reeva's family and friends deserve to know the truth of what happened (as do we all). Unfortunately, we may never know. I hate this as much as anyone. What the judge said about this is difficult to reconcile.

 

[Suthrnqt]

OJ was sentenced not guilty. So here is a better chance. The should try it.
OJ was then K.O. and is in prison now (because of lack of money)

OJ is in prison for Armed Robbery and Kidnapping. He was sentenced to 33 years.

 

[BritsKate]

This is one family that really needs a blanket ban on all forms of social media. What are the chances of two men in one family killing women - just a couple of years apart - and neither truly being held accountable for their actions?

Two women's loved ones lives forever marred...and they tweet on.

 

[K.T]

black talon versus standard ammunition
can anyone clarify the fact that masipa stated the type of ammunition in the gun was irrelevant? was this stated in relation to a specific point, or across the board.

did she not understand the effects and intent associated with black talon?

I think it was around the time the judge was talking about dolus eventualis or murder about intention and how the accused could not have foreseen the death of the victim from shooting four shots at the toilet door.

"There was little room to manoeuvre" said Masipa on the toilet size, yet somehow thinks black talons, and four of them, shoot into the door just "might have caused death".

Quite a lot of mental gymnastics at play - almost as contradictory as Pistorius about the fans, the shooting, the calls and, well, everything.

 

[HauntsForHope]

I believe in Karma... have seen it with my own eyes. When someone gets away with such an injustice, it (guilt) drags them down to their ultimate destruction. In this case, alcohol, fast cars and guns will surely be the means....

 

[believe09]

I am lost and it has to be attributed to the finer points of SA Law Perhaps:

Sunroof weapons charge-
"Fresco was not an impressive witness at all when he gave evidence on this count," she said. "In fact he was proved to be a dishonest witness."

but then-
"It is the opinion of this court that Mr Darren Fresco answered frankly and honestly all the questions put to him, accordingly he is discharged from prosecution for the offence specified in the indictment as count three," she says.

Dolus Eventualis:
"This court has already found that the accused can not be found guilty of murder dolus eventualis.
"It could not be said that he foresaw that either the deceased or anybody else for that matter might be killed when he fired the shots at the toilet door"

but then:

"A reasonable person therefore in the position of the accused with a similar disability would have foreseen that possibility that whoever was behind the door might be killed by the shots and would have taken steps to avoid the consequences and the accused in this matter failed to take those consequences."

I am certain you all covered this already. This is where I will be forever confused and disheartened by this verdict.

 

[Trooper]

no sentence or possibility of freedom has addressed Oscar's main problem.. the problem that becomes everyone else's problem, and that is, he cannot distinguish sounds that require action and sounds that don't. ( this is if you believe he heard 'sounds' , I don't, but hey) ... surely any judgement will have to address how Oscar can move back into society and society be reasonably safe from his perceptions?


He is currently, supposedly , living with his family.. they apparently are not nervous re the sounds and instant firing of black talons at supposed source of sound.. which means they are either collectively brainlessly idiotically brave, or they don't for one moment believe Oscar fired at random in a panic, it cannot be both, it has to be one or the other..

 

[sleuth-d-]

They just don't know how to behave responsibly, do they?

What a family, eh .. and how proud they must be that those two brothers, Oscar and Carl, are both guilty of having killed a woman each. That family needs to be avoided at all costs, they are some sort of curse.

both had courtroom drama and both the near death accidents, [carls leg nearly amputated too?!]
it is like some kind of dark sibling competition.

 

[Datchery]

I still can't get past the idea that it is in any way plausible that your automatic assumption wouldn't be that the strange person in the bathroom would be, you know, THE PERSON WHO LIVES WITH YOU. No one suggested that OP had a history of sleepwalking or nighttime hallucinations. Masipa rejected the heightened anxiety claim, and he wasn't found to be mentally incapacitated in any way at the time of the shooting. If he had time to get his gun and position himself to fire, he had time to check the bed and realize Reeva wasn't there.

This isn't just a case of mistaken but honest fear. That is something you might claim if you shot someone who approached you while you were walking on a dark street at night, and made a gesture you perceived as aggressive. In that case, we might still decide that the fear wasn't reasonable enough to justify the response, but it would be somewhere in the realm of comprehensible human behavior. But if you can legitimately claim that you were afraid because you heard the toilet flush EVEN THOUGH you already knew there were others in the house, then we're living in a very dangerous world.

And from what I've read about domestic violence, the fact that OP was apparently devastated afterward doesn't prove anything. Men who kill their partners don't usually plan it out in advance, they do it in a moment of rage and don't think about the consequences until it is too late. That doesn't mean firing four bullets into someone isn't intentional murder in that moment.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I think it was around the time the judge was talking about dolus eventualis or murder about intention and how the accused could not have foreseen the death of the victim from shooting four shots at the toilet door.

"There was little room to manoeuvre" said Masipa on the toilet size, yet somehow thinks black talons, and four of them, shoot into the door just "might have caused death".

Quite a lot of mental gymnastics at play - almost as contradictory as Pistorius about the fans, the shooting, the calls and, well, everything.

Well said.