Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[Hatfield]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29180769

Oscar Pistorius trial: Did Reeva Steenkamp get justice?
By Pumza Fihlani
BBC News, Pretoria

...As the case enters its final stretch, two courts in South Africa are now debating Judge Masipa's verdict - the courts of public opinion and of the legal system.
Some legal experts say she followed the law impeccably, but some have been unsettled by her ruling that Pistorius was not guilty of murder, saying the prosecution had grounds to appeal... Legal expert Prof Pierre de Vos tweeted : "Not sure rejection of [murder charge] is correct here...

...Judge Masipa, has a reputation for fairness in court circles and is well respected - but on the streets this has somewhat changed...

#JusticeForReeva is currently trending among South Africa's Twitter users.

The decision to believe OPs story of intruder and ignore other people's testimony of a woman screaming just shocks me. I cant help but wonder if perhaps she sided with OP due to her condition that also prevented her from walking well. Hopefully it had nothing to do with it.

"....Judge Masipa will once more make the short walk punctuated by a gentle limp that is believed to have been the result of childhood polio, to her seat at the raised bench."

http://www.smh.com.au/world/south-a...or-oscar-pistorius-trial-20140907-10dib9.html

 

[soozieqtips]

Sooz... I am simply gob smacked... I find it hard to take that 5 ordinary lay witnesses, all with no connection to Oscar at all had their evidence dismissed as 'a mistake'.. they had no connection with each other, either.. after that, one didn't need to be a weatherman to see which way the wind was blowing..

I found it odd, that no critique of the defence witnesses took place... apart from Oscar being called 'evasive'.. that seemed to be that.

Yep. It was pretty mind blowing how the most dishonest and unreliable witness (OP himself) was believed, and yet all the independent witnesses with no axe to grind were labelled as mistaken and unreliable. It hasn't quite sunk in yet, but I suppose it will once she passes sentence and sets him free.

 

[Cloen]

Oscar Pistorius verdict: judgment seemed to support charge of 'dolus eventualis'
South African lawyers argue if athlete could have foreseen someone could die, he should be guilty of common-law murder
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/pistorius-verdict-questioned-as-state-prepares-appeal

 

[Trooper]

Yep. It was pretty mind blowing how the most dishonest and unreliable witness (OP himself) was believed, and yet all the independent witnesses with no axe to grind were labelled as mistaken and unreliable. It hasn't quite sunk in yet, but I suppose it will once she passes sentence and sets him free.

just to be clear.. those witnesses lived close by ( therefore, were not poor ) one was a teacher of economics at Witwatersrand University, and also a professional musician.. one was a physiotherapist, one was former game park keeper, one was a Doctor of Medicine and a Specialist in Radiology.. not crack addicts, ice addicts, jail house snitches, street people.. they put their rep on the line.

 

[04009margaret]

“Following today’s verdict, our thoughts remain with all those who have been affected by this terrible tragedy, in particular the family and friends of Reeva Steenkamp who sadly lost her life in this incident. “Throughout this case, the IPC has stressed the importance of differentiating between Oscar’s contribution to the Paralympic Movement and his private life. “As a sports organisation, it would be unwise for the IPC to comment on the conclusion of a court case that is not related to sport.”

"Oscar Pistorius will be allowed to compete at the 2016 Paralympic Games if he is not in jail, the International Paralympic Committee has revealed."
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/disability-sport/29179210
In the words of Reeva's parents, "Oscar is still breathing, their daughter died a horrific painful death." And now the sporting community feel he should be welcomed back, what an insult to Reeva's memory.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...ps-parents-say-justice-was-not-served-n202081

 

[Hoosgirl]

Still several pages back, so apologies if already posted ... Sam Taylor to be on 48 Hours (CBS), on now.

 

[turaj]

View attachment 58728

I don't think it's Carice.

I would not doubt if it is the girlfriend with different hair.

 

[Forensics]

If I understand correctly it just means whether the accused KNEW the possible risks or was ignorant of them and SHOULD have known. In this case the question is whether Oscar knew that shooting at someone as he did, might kill them. Seems a simple and clear yes to me, no complications yet Masipa judged there is reasonable possibility he did not know.

The placement of the bullets is very pertinent. They were not fired in a scattered pattern, above head height, or near the floor. Each bullet was fired at waist height close to the toilet door handle. This was a conscious decision and, in my mind, aimed to kill the person behind the door. Oscar was obsessed with guns, he knew what the bullets would do if they hit their target and he aimed to make sure they did.

 

[jilly]

Does anyone know if he is allowed to have firearms after this verdict? I sure hope not as I honestly feel he would have another accidental or on purpose discharge of a weapon. This guy has a serious case of trigger fingers.

Just like a few others we know who had deadly discharges of their firearms near restaurants or in home. A couple real good examples I can think of are actor Robert Blake and producer Phil Spector

This will be addressed at the sentencing, October 13th, I believe.

 

[jilly]

The placement of the bullets is very pertinent. They were not fired in a scattered pattern, above head height, or near the floor. Each bullet was fired at waist height close to the toilet door handle. This was a conscious decision and, in my mind, aimed to kill the person behind the door. Oscar was obsessed with guns, he knew what the bullets would do if they hit their target and he aimed to make sure they did.

Exactly! Judge could have easily made the inference.

 

[pandax81]

Does anyone know if he is allowed to have firearms after this verdict? I sure hope not as I honestly feel he would have another accidental or on purpose discharge of a weapon. This guy has a serious case of trigger fingers.

Just like a few others we know who had deadly discharges of their firearms near restaurants or in home. A couple real good examples I can think of are actor Robert Blake and producer Phil Spector

Masipa has caused a big problem. We deal with Section 103 of the Firearms Control Act "Declaration by court of person to be unfit to possess a firearm". All revoked permits, and references to surrendering guns and ammunition refer to possession.

According to Masipa, he can still keep someone else's gun and ammo at his home/room, and this would be perfectly legal. No-one can ever do anything about it, he just says it was for safekeeping. He can even take the gun outside every day, and on the off chance he gets caught say he was on his way to returning it, and no-one can ever do anything about it.

 

[turaj]

"In a controversial move, the lawyer reads out the address of Pistorius's Uncle Arnold, with whom the athlete has been staying for 18 months."

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...ge-masipa-delivers-her-decision#ixzz3D8hv5xrE

There will probably be a lot of angry stalkers camping outside of Uncle Arnie's house?

i also found that very strange along with so many things done by this judge

 

[turaj]

I wonder if Masipa is reading any of the new coverage, public and legal outcry because of her verdict, and questioning herself whether she's done the right thing? Or does she look in the mirror and think "you were absolutely 100% right"???

I sincerely hope that she I thinkgives OP jail time. But sadly, I doubt that she will.

I think she is looking in the mirror and saying "I did what I had to do"....I think she has "pressure" big time from many above her...same with the sentence...I would like to know from those on the ground in SA as to what the majority of people think about this verdict? Just the average people on the street. I am thinking it is not going over well and there is a glimmer of hope that in order to "passify the masses" she may be encouraged to give him a short stint in prison...but that is remote.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Legal Discussion after court proceedings from Channel 199 (audio)
Bongani Bingwa with David Dadic and James Aveyard:
https://soundcloud.com/giles-10/bongani-1/s-N4Uuj

Thank you Giles for this excellent link. This brilliant interview covers so many issues that we're all discussing here. I recommend everyone should listen to this.

 

[Cloen]

Stephanie Findlay ‏@SJFindlay
The prosecution is very disappointed. Police photographer Bennie van Staden says "I don't have words, it's pathetic"

 

[turaj]

Wow so the South African courts say yes to domestic violence? What a *advertiser censored* - I am disgusted he is free. He had better not get back into athletics, surely no one would support a murderer walking free...

I think you may be wrong on that one....

 

[jilly]

Oscar , within the first few seconds of him being in the witness stand when the defence took the lead , in a puddle of snot and tears went to a great deal of trouble claiming how he now 'hates guns... just hates them.'.... a sort of self imposed ban, if you will. The Judge may find that to be all that is necessary.. Oscar's proclaimed distaste for the hardware. Two witnesses did testify about Oscar's 'great love' of guns, though.. not that it will count.

OMG. Why did they even have a trial. What farce this has been. What role did the Assessors play I wonder. Seems like the Judge had total control.

 

[04009margaret]

Sky News Verdict Analysis featuring Martin Hood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0rI1SohO7Y&list=PLG8IrydigQffS-nHd4SaGcDO7DsxxygzY

 

[turaj]

If he gets 10-15 years I wonder if they'll both appeal?

The NPA are, in my view, sending out a strong message by expressing their dissatisfaction with the verdict. I think this case will be hanging around for a while.

Personally, had the judge summarised all the evidence and explained her weighting I'd understand her verdict better. However, she's seemingly ignored huge chunks of evidence from both sides, dismissed the ear witnesses, believed OP whilst conceding he wasn't truthful and made her decision based on his courtroom dramatics and prayers to his god.

I agree that her attitude was almost maternal. Along those lines, while it shouldn't and I hope it doesn't make any difference, I hope the appeal judges (are there three of them?) are all fathers with daughters.

Well it was crystal clear she weighed OP crying very heavy...very heavy and all of his words too were taken as the truth. She was equally clear no weight was given to just about anyone or anything else. It really was pretty simple. I understood it very well. I think anything not spoken of was just not heard or disregarded. I would imagine Gerry Nel is having a tough time as he really put forth a great effort in my mind. I guess the only thing that maybe could have been better for him was the timeline...that was weighed heavily and only phone records were considered valid.

 

[Hatfield]

Some of the ruling is just incredible. She really is contradicting herself even in this part where she says it doesnt mean the witnesses cant be believed but just that their testimony has to be taken with caution. No judge, you chose to disbelieve 2 witnesses so dont try to tell us otherwise. That WAS the states evidence. Good Grief.

"Masipa says this does not always mean a witness's whole evidence is tainted, but caution is warranted.......

Masipa says this does not necessarily mean she was out to implicate the accused, but again her evidence must be taken with "a certain degree of caution". As Pistorius denied the incident, it is up to the prosecution to prove that it happened. Masipa announces that the state has failed to establish that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt on this count and therefore has to be acquitted on one charge of discharging firearms in public."

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...ge-masipa-delivers-her-decision#ixzz3D8hv5xrE