Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[AW2B]

Reasoning - how to think rather than what to think - is a very particular skill, and just one facet of intelligence. Everybody thinks they have the skill of reason in spades, but not everybody does. This verdict absolutely flowed from reason - the same logic that the minority here have been putting forth from the beginning, and the same logic that has been dismissed from the beginning. Rather than seeing the verdict as a challenge to their own thought and meeting that will curiosity and interest, people have accused Maspia of everything from feebleness to insensitivity to corruption. What she's guilty of, along with her assessors, is being a clearer and more efficient thinker than the general population. It's a requirement of the job and probably a component of what draws any of us to our professions: suitability and aptness.

It's very difficult for me to read such post and remain silent..

So the so called efficient thinker "judge Masipa" didn't think to ask these questions to evaluate the reasonableness of Pistorius's story:

-If he heard a noise coming from the bathroom area..why didn't he check to see if Reeva was the cause of the noise?
-If he thought an intruder was in the house..why didn't he try to wake Reeva up by shaking her to warn her of a possible intruder so she can be on her guard and call the police?
-When he heard the noise ...why did he think it was ONE intruder and not intruder(S)?
-If he was so afraid..why did he step into a pitch black bathroom where the so called intruder could have been hiding and could have shot him on the spot?
-If he was so afraid..why did he stand behind the door shooting at a possible armed intruder who could have shot back at him? Why he was so confident that no other intruder can come from behind to stab/shoot him?
-How did he know where to aim at the so called intruder? He could have been anywhere in the toilet area?! He knew where to aim because he saw Reeva closing the door then locking it..
-If he shouted at Reeva to call the police as he claimed...why didn't Reeva take any action? She had her cellphone with her..why didn't she call the emergency number such as 911? If she was already in the toilet area she would have had enough time to dial the emergency number for cell phones which is "112". However, if he was chasing her she wouldn't have a chance to call for help as she desperately needed it..she only had a chance to barely get into the toilet area and lock herself up..
-When he realized Reeva was not in bed..why did he directly conclude it was Reeva he shot? He supposedly shouted at her to call the police..he supposedly shouted at the intruder to get out of his house...then it would have been reasonable for him to first think that she could be hiding somewhere in the house waiting for the police. This illogical chain of thoughts indicate that his story is nothing but a poorly made up lie!

____________

The obvious answers to these questions is that he fabricated his ridiculous nonsense story..he knew it was UNARMED Reeva behind that door because he chased her there.

My heart goes out to Reeva's parents..justice was not served..

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Life for the disabled prisoner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t5BIjYy7pU&list=PL2BJTpLEt7O7zPu-8lpEaye8Os6chwX8G&index=31

Thank you Margaret, that was interesting. Prisoners can keep their prosthetic legs and be held in a single cell.

 

[turaj]

the photo above of June Steenkamp is so telling...I noted her expression during that grueling reading of the verdict and each not guilty was like a knife into her heart and she just sat stunned...I hope based on what has gone down so far that their lawyer prepares them well for him to walk out of that courtroom after "sentencing" as no doubt that will happen and that could be even more devastating. I doubt that any questioning of any of the facts etc. have much point now...this judge believed nothing from Gerry Nel's case...just that simple and she has the authority here to decide. I fully believe based on what I have seen of OP and his whole family he will be in trouble again within the next few years...for sure not before the sentencing...he knows he has an ally now in the judge and basically will be getting off easy.

On another note...Sam Taylor's mother is certainly capitalizing on Reeva's murder and frankly I think using her daughter. I do think much of what she says is probably somewhat true but she is no doubt leaving out all the things she no doubt got from OP and places she went etc. She was loving it and aspires even today to hook her daughter up with fame and fortune. If I were her I would be thanking god her daughter is still alive and would be very very concerned about a free OP as both she and her daughter have done all possible to get him locked up...OP knows exactly where they live and has many friends that to this day would do whatever he says.

 

[turaj]

Thank you Margaret, that was interesting. Prisoners can keep their prosthetic legs and be held in a single cell.

This is interesting but this is not just a "disabled prisoner" it is OP and they just won't put him in prison with or without legs.

 

[Viper]

so public opinion can play a part in sentencing/penalties in sa? ... ... ...

Public opinion is important in any and all aspects of government. Government is there to serve the population, not vice versa, so of course they care and respond when things are perceived as being done wrongly. The NPA is a government entity and I do believe that public opinion will influence their decision (even more) to appeal Masipa's judgement, her sentencing too if it is perceived to be unfairly leanient. The judgement represents a dangerous precedant if it is left standing, I cannot see it going unchallenged; throw in public outrage and its a given that an appeal is inevitable.

 

[DarKHawK]

How will OP travel to UK and States with a criminal record? It has to be declared and they should just block him.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[turaj]

How will OP travel to UK and States with a criminal record? It has to be declared and they should just block him.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

If he is traveling for the olympics etc. my very uneducated guess is there are ways around it. It seems that Uncle Arnold has a full time job managing the Pistorius boys and he is very good at finding ways around everything including MURDER.

 

[cottonweaver]

How will OP travel to UK and States with a criminal record? It has to be declared and they should just block him.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Sticking my neck out again - but he's destined for Kgosi Mampuru* EVENTUALLY. lease:

*aka Pretoria Prison

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Tonight (Saturday) on CNN:

7:30PM (EDT) CNN Spotlight: Oscar Pistorius: What led to the verdict in the South African Olympic sprinter's trial for the murder of Reeva Steenkamp?

 

[Z&BsMommy]

Good post. I tend to agree that the conditions of SA prisons gave her no choice but to go the way she did. If the prisons were of the standard of Australian jails then she may have gone for murder. Sending a pretty white boy with no legs to a living hell hole is beyond extreme and yes Reeva is dead and she is gone however there is "punishment' and there is living hell. The question is which does OP deserve? I would like to get some opinions on this especially from the staunch anti OP members

I can understand her line of thinking, HOWEVER, from all accounts, OP was aware that his trigger happiness was wrong.. ie: blaming someone else for one of the incidents. Imo, he should have thought about how horrible prison was BEFORE he gunned down an innocent woman in cold blood.. again only my opinion.

 

[Lyra500]

I can understand her line of thinking, HOWEVER, from all accounts, OP was aware that his trigger happiness was wrong.. ie: blaming someone else for one of the incidents. Imo, he should have thought about how horrible prison was BEFORE he gunned down an innocent woman in cold blood.. again only my opinion.

Believe me - not just your opinion.

 

[jacalyn]

Masipa has totally tarnished her reputation as well as the justice system.

I can understand the anger of so many prominent legal experts like judge Greenland, she basically represented them to SA and the law, and, she represented them as faulty in the extreme in
judgement, so much so, that to a layperson, even someone off the street would come out with a more competent verdict.

Honestly, i think she deserves it, i hold alot of sympathy for people in professions solving a problem that the layperson could not solve, however
if your judgement is so faulty that a layperson can in fact do a better job in judgement, i have the highest contempt.

Agree, thought Oh Good, a Judge has experience, will realize facts and take them into consideration, with experience can basically see-through-people, instead of 12 people having to agree 100%. What a bad, very, very joke this was.

Saw several mentioning awful conditions in the SA prisons. Its PRISION, too bad, good nice people aren't there. Years ago I was at a Block Buster movie rental in line to PAY. Women in front of me got hers FREE, you know why. They were for the prisoner's! There out-of-business now, but I left mine on the counter, never went back leaving my opinion behind.

I want to ask a question and could of been discussed, but never saw anything here. Why only 4 shots? He was in a rage and would of unloaded his gun. Did they look for bullet holes in the bathroom direction, or check if any left in the gun (doubt)?

Oscars tears were for himself. Tears at Reeve's funeral were directed correctly, for her. Discussed and sad with the ruling.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

This is interesting but this is not just a "disabled prisoner" it is OP and they just won't put him in prison with or without legs.

I agree.

 

[vansleuths]

Viper,

I hope you see this msg, I know we've had a bit of back and forth on this.

I've always felt this was a murder case, but corruption in Africa means that justice is never quite what it should be. It didn't surprise me that Masipa went with CH. I'm really interested to see just how she is going to handle the punishment phase. Pressure from colleagues in the lunch room could force her to come down a bit harder than she may want to.

However, if I go with my original feelings on this subject, OP will only get a suspended, non custodial sentence and here's why.

1. OP has a major disability that most prison guards and citizens will not understand
2. OP is a celebrity and prisons will not be able to guarantee his safety in the prison system.
3. OP NOW HAS general anxiety disorder

Because of these points, OP will either spend his time at a hospital to serve his sentence OR he will do so at his uncle's home.

I also said that OP will not be harmed financially from this crime and it looks like such is the case because:

1. The paraolympic committee has invited him to compete for South Africa at the next Olympics if he has finished his sentence
2. Many pundits are now saying OP will make millions from book deals and biographies

I never knew who OP was before this incident but now I will never forget his name and I'm sure there were many others outside of South Africa that were in the same boat. This trial has certainly increased his celebrity status, whether anyone likes it or not and higher celebrity status means more money.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Agree, thought Oh Good, a Judge has experience, will realize facts and take them into consideration, with experience can basically see-through-people, instead of 12 people having to agree 100%. What a bad, very, very joke this was.

Saw several mentioning awful conditions in the SA prisons. Its PRISION, too bad, good nice people aren't there. Years ago I was at a Block Buster movie rental in line to PAY. Women in front of me got hers FREE, you know why. They were for the prisoner's! There out-of-business now, but I left mine on the counter, never went back leaving my opinion behind.

I want to ask a question and could of been discussed, but never saw anything here. Why only 4 shots? He was in a rage and would of unloaded his gun. Did they look for bullet holes in the bathroom direction, or check if any left in the gun (doubt)?

Oscars tears were for himself. Tears at Reeve's funeral were directed correctly, for her. Discussed and sad with the ruling.

Gerrie Nel tackled OP on that point, why 4 shots, not one or unload the gun?

I don't remember OP's different answers, it might have been he kept bullets if there were more intruders? But surely that means he had his wits about him for someone so terrified. He knew not to shoot a warning shot into the shower because it might ricochet and hit him.

I remember OP saying he didn't think at the time, he just fired his gun, he was scared an intruder was going to storm out of the toilet. Nel had a habit of going back to a question he had asked earlier, so there was more than one response.

Also, OP stopped momentarily after the first shot, why? Was it because Reeva was screaming? We'll never know, I suspect.

Masipa doesn't believe the ear witnesses heard Reeva scream, she believes they heard OP screaming, yelling, talking etc..... She doesn't believe the State did a good enough job to convince her Reeva spoke/screamed/cried, she was totally mute from her perspective.

Why Reeva never phoned the police is the question Masipa should ask herself. She didn't seem to associate any normal activity from Reeva on that night. Reeva was a faceless, silent 'thing' that happened to just be there. Quite amazing really. :facepalm:
I find it pretty disgusting and unsettling. jmo

 

[vansleuths]

It was already inappropriate for him to have held a press conference of this nature so soon after court finished it's session this morning. The whole family should've just kept quiet and gone home .. many of us do not want to see or hear of them any more than we have to, vile lot.

BIB

The inverse of your comment would imply that many would like to hear what the family says and holding a press conference is the only way for them to get their message out to the masses. You do have the option of turning off the television if you do not want to watch their press conference.

Along the same lines, the Steenkamp family has now gone public after the verdict. First they have voiced their displeasure with the verdict and second, while I haven't watch it, I have heard that they have also gone on NBC to share their comments about this trial with the world.

If we are going to come down hard on one family, we need to have equal justice and do the same on both sides

 

[foxbluff]

Reasoning - how to think rather than what to think - is a very particular skill, and just one facet of intelligence. Everybody thinks they have the skill of reason in spades, but not everybody does. This verdict absolutely flowed from reason - the same logic that the minority here have been putting forth from the beginning, and the same logic that has been dismissed from the beginning. Rather than seeing the verdict as a challenge to their own thought and meeting that will curiosity and interest, people have accused Maspia of everything from feebleness to insensitivity to corruption. What she's guilty of, along with her assessors, is being a clearer and more efficient thinker than the general population. It's a requirement of the job and probably a component of what draws any of us to our professions: suitability and aptness.

Thank you.

 

[4MrsB]

There are obviously too many articles posted all over the internet from retired Judges, lawyers, media and more to link to. However, most of them that I've been able to read all state much the same . . . outrage in S.A. over Judge M's light verdict. Confusion over her reasoning for CH.

A couple of different commentators (both legal & laypersons) pointed out a surprising contrast in verdicts between the S.A. black rapper "Jub Jub" Maarohanye who was found guilty of murder & sentenced to 20 years in prison for drag racing in the streets of Soweto & crashing into some boys.

"Jub Jub was driving his car at high speeds and gets MURDER, while Oscar goes and retrieves his gun and fires 4 shots into a small cubicle (after testifying he KNEW there was a person inside) and gets CH." ???????

One S.A. radio station commented on the public's vocal outrage. Stated they have received hundreds of calls, with 99% of them outraged over the lenient verdict.

(Apologies if these references have already been posted. Can't keep up with postings.)

 

[IndianSummer]

For what it's worth, I do understand Masipa not wanting to send him to a South African prison for murder. The prisons are a disgrace, and no normal person would want to even spend a weekend there, let alone 15-25 years housed with some of the country's worst offenders, a lot of who are HIV positive and have TB. By finding him guilty of culpable homicide allows her to send him to a more open prison, where the offenders a are a better class of inmates. Is she going to suspend his sentence? That will be insulting to the steenkamp family. I will be shocked if he gets no jail time, clearly there was an argument before the shooting, but she is disregarding these witnesses. She seems to have favoured the defence throughout the trial, but I thought she was just trying to appear unbiased against OP, but I was wrong. I thought people saying he will get off were just crazy, and hadn't listened to all the evidence. Now I don't know what to think anymore. Maybe he will get off Scott free, and maybe he will run in the next Olympics.

No normal person would want to have their arm amputated, walk with a limp or have brain damage/be in a vegetative state. If Reeva had lived she would have been sentenced to a lifetiime of any of those.
I'm with Reeva's mom...I could care less what happens to Oscar.
I will say that IMO the only way he will ever get peace is to finally face some very difficult truths about himself. The path he chose, the cause and effect in his life led to him murdering a woman that wanted to simply love and be loved by him.
He can put it off but it will forever be there whether he's in a dungeon or house arrest.


JMO

 

[turaj]

Viper,

I hope you see this msg, I know we've had a bit of back and forth on this.

I've always felt this was a murder case, but corruption in Africa means that justice is never quite what it should be. It didn't surprise me that Masipa went with CH. I'm really interested to see just how she is going to handle the punishment phase.

If I go with my original feelings on this subject, OP will only get a suspended, non custodial sentence and here's why.

1. OP has a major disability that most people will not understand
2. OP is a celebrity and prisons will not be able to guarantee his safety in the prison system.
3. OP NOW HAS general anxiety disorder

Because of these points, OP will either spend his time at a hospital to serve his sentence OR he will do so at his uncle's home.

I also said that OP will not be harmed financially from this crime and it looks like such is the case because:

1. The paraolympic committee has invited him to compete for South Africa at the next Olympics if he has finished his sentence
2. Many pundits are now saying OP will make millions from book deals and biographies

I never knew who OP was before this incident but now I will never forget his name and I'm sure there were many others outside of South Africa that were in the same boat. This trial has certainly increased his celebrity status, whether anyone likes it or not and higher celebrity status means more money.

Nice summary and just my views exactly...and do not be surprised if that sentence is tailormade so he can compete in the next olympics...apparently he used to dedicate his runs/victories to his dead mother..,not he can do the same for Judge Masipa who made it all possible.