Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[cottonweaver]

BIB

The inverse of your comment would imply that many would like to hear what the family says and holding a press conference is the only way for them to get their message out to the masses. You do have the option of turning off the television if you do not want to watch their press conference.

Along the same lines, the Steenkamp family has now gone public after the verdict. First they have voiced their displeasure with the verdict and second, while I haven't watch it, I have heard that they have also gone on NBC to share their comments about this trial with the world.

If we are going to come down hard on one family, we need to have equal justice and do the same on both sides

If we are going to come down hard on one family, we need to have equal justice and do the same on both sides

Respectfully Vans but I don't think it will be possible to gain a broad consensus on that - from either WS posters or members of the public. The majority of opinion is now set - including mine - it's probably down to the very different ways the two families have conducted themselves up to this announcement.

For whatever reason ( potential lawsuit?) Steenkamps maintained more restraint than Pistorius family and didn't go on a PR offensive and they didn't keep trying to trump all naysayers by saying that God was on their side. A surfeit of pride and seeming arrogance hasn't helped them either.
General public, WS posters included, aren't masters of the law, but they do have usually have an innate sense of what's appropriate in circumstances like these.

I know its not at all what you stated but also I don't think it's what some dub the "politics of envy" ie Pistos being rich, Reeva's side being poor - but certainly, any suspicion of abuse of power and wealth, manipulation is readily sniffed out.

And of course in SA, I am sure you will agree, that point is of even of greater significance. Average man/woman on street in SA,right or wrong, is going to compare eg. the Jub Jub case to Oscar's, even though they are very different cases, and that's not a good thing for SA. JMO

 

[soozieqtips]

.. yes, and now this case has set a precendent for many more woman to be allowed to be killed in DV situations, with no comeuppance .. life will not 'go on' for them, will it. This case is really important in terms of not setting precendents, and I really object to that type of glib, smug type comment '.. and life goes on ..'

Yes. Judge Masipa really showed what she thinks of Reeva - nothing. Sad day when a judge cares more about a killer and his tears than a dead woman who died alone in terror as a result of the killer's bullets. So shocked at how she bought all that tripe. If crying, puking, praying and lying is all you have to do to get a judge to believe you're innocent of murder (while the judge discards huge amounts of expert witness testimony) then that judge is not fit to pass judgement on anyone.

 

[cottonweaver]

Thank you.

You'll love Professor James Grant's column

http://criminallawza.net/

have a look, see what you think

 

[lithgow1]

Interesting read. I agree with his and milady's interpretation of the law. I don't think that the prosecution proved, beyond a reasonable doubt, that OP knew Reeva was behind that door.

By his own words he knew SOMEONE was and went ahead and fired four times into the tiny cubicle we have all seen. What is that if not shooting to kill?

 

[soozieqtips]

What's sad too jayjay, when the attention on OP dies down, in months and years to come we will hear in the news of the next round of 'mistakes' of OPs, another shooting, reckless driving where someone is injured or killed, nightclub fights etc. etc. and all we can do is shake our head. I don't believe this is the end of it but we will become to tired to care. (speaking for myself here)

His past escapades and the death of Reeva should give us an inkling into his future. :crystalball:

JMO

BBM - I expect his family will ensure OP is not breathalysed for at least 12 hours after any such incident. OP has got away with murder, and he knows it. He must be feeling invincible after this. The danger is what will he do next? In the months before Reeva's killing, he'd been on a binge of escalating bad behaviour, which eventually culminated in Reeva's violent death. And then to know his piss poor performance on the stand was enough to convince the judge of his innocence, well, what can't he do now?

Sam Taylor's mum said that OP could lie as easily as he could breathe, and yet a highly-regarded judge known for tough sentences for crimes against women, totally bought his lies. If another woman comes to harm at OP's hands, will Masipa feel guilty? I don't think so.

 

[jay-jay]

BIB

The inverse of your comment would imply that many would like to hear what the family says and holding a press conference is the only way for them to get their message out to the masses. You do have the option of turning off the television if you do not want to watch their press conference.

Along the same lines, the Steenkamp family has now gone public after the verdict. First they have voiced their displeasure with the verdict and second, while I haven't watch it, I have heard that they have also gone on NBC to share their comments about this trial with the world.

If we are going to come down hard on one family, we need to have equal justice and do the same on both sides

The Steenkamp family are the ones who have had an injustice served, they are the one's who have lost a member of their family .. Reeva .. to a killer (and imo, a murderer).

The Pistorius family are nothing but the protectors of that killer, I don't want to hear them but I'm not exactly stopping those who do want to hear them am I .. all I said was 'many' of us don't want to hear them, it's entirely your choice if you do. It is still inappropriate, regardless of whether you wish to see them or not. The people who matter here are the Steenkamps, and the rest of Reeva's friends and family, no-one else.

 

[AW2B]

By his own words he knew SOMEONE was and went ahead and fired four times into the tiny cubicle we have all seen. What is that if not shooting to kill?

I guess according to Masipa.. he was shooting hoping to miss!

 

[soozieqtips]

They believe his story is reasonably possibly true. That is a long distance from "believing" his story.

Not such a long distance when the verdict is the same either way.

 

[cottonweaver]

Viper,



However, if I go with my original feelings on this subject, OP will only get a suspended, non custodial sentence and here's why.

1. OP has a major disability that most prison guards and citizens will not understand
2. OP is a celebrity and prisons will not be able to guarantee his safety in the prison system.
3. OP NOW HAS general anxiety disorder

Because of these points, OP will either spend his time at a hospital to serve his sentence OR he will do so at his uncle's home.

RSBM

I really hope your gut is wrong Vansleuth on this but I respect that your view comes from experience of SA. I'm still hoping for more and going for eventual prison time.*

*give or take an unexpected turn outside anyone's control such as flight/suicide etc.

 

[soozieqtips]

BIB

The inverse of your comment would imply that many would like to hear what the family says and holding a press conference is the only way for them to get their message out to the masses. You do have the option of turning off the television if you do not want to watch their press conference.

Along the same lines, the Steenkamp family has now gone public after the verdict. First they have voiced their displeasure with the verdict and second, while I haven't watch it, I have heard that they have also gone on NBC to share their comments about this trial with the world.

If we are going to come down hard on one family, we need to have equal justice and do the same on both sides

BIB - I guess it depends where your sympathy lies. Mine is with Reeva's parents who will never recover from this. OP is just fine, probably won't see the inside of a prison, and is even hoping to make a comeback in his career. Meanwhile, Reeva's parents will be scarred by their memories of her last moments on this earth, and will now have to watch OP go on with life as normal (pretty much as he has done since he killed Reeva). I don't think both families deserve equal justice, as one family has enabled OP to be the monster he is today, the monster that got away with murder.

 

[vansleuths]

Respectfully Vans but I don't think it will be possible to gain a broad consensus on that - from either WS posters or members of the public. The majority of opinion is now set - including mine - it's probably down to the very different ways the two families have conducted themselves up to this announcement.

For whatever reason ( potential lawsuit?) Steenkamps maintained more restraint than Pistorius family and didn't go on a PR offensive and they didn't keep trying to trump all naysayers by saying that God was on their side. A surfeit of pride and seeming arrogance hasn't helped them either.
General public, WS posters included, aren't masters of the law, but they do have usually have an innate sense of what's appropriate in circumstances like these.

I know its not at all what you stated but also I don't think it's what some dub the "politics of envy" ie Pistos being rich, Reeva's side being poor - but certainly, any suspicion of abuse of power and wealth, manipulation is readily sniffed out.

And of course in SA, I am sure you will agree, that point is of even of greater significance. Average man/woman on street in SA,right or wrong, is going to compare eg. the Jub Jub case to Oscar's, even though they are very different cases, and that's not a good thing for SA. JMO

When you look at the scrum of media that was in the courtroom when Arnold was about to speak for the family, it was clear that it was a madhouse. This was even seen when Pistorius left the courtroom, flanked by police officers on all sides as he entered his car.

The media will only follow a story if there is public interest and they will only post a story online or on TV if they believe that this is something that readers/viewers want to watch. I live on the other side of the world and the Arnold Pistorius comments were broadcast on radio, made its way into print and were shown on TV as well. This wouldn't have happened if people weren't interested in this story or in his comments.

Whether they were distasteful or not is another point, but again, I believe that whatever the rules, they should apply to both sides equally.

What I feel sorry about in regards to the Steenkamp family is that they appear to be a family with humble means whom Reeva was financially assisting. They certainly do not have the financial means to do a PR blitz such as the the Pistorius family.

 

[vansleuths]

Nice summary and just my views exactly...and do not be surprised if that sentence is tailormade so he can compete in the next olympics...apparently he used to dedicate his runs/victories to his dead mother..,not he can do the same for Judge Masipa who made it all possible.

The world of sports is very small and top athletes from different sports often can use the same PR firms to represent them.

When Tiger Woods was called out for his infidelity with escorts, the world looked at him as a sleaze ball and no company wanted to be associated with him. At that time, his PR team went to work.

We saw Tiger apologize for his actions, say he was giving up on the game of golf for an indefinite period of time while he went back to discover his roots and when he came back, he found god. It took a while, but he put this entire incident behind him and he's back on the golf circuit again.

Assuming that OP is not found guilty of murder on appeal if this happens, the same will happen with OP. His image will be rehabilitated in time. It is only a matter of time. These PR companies are that good. I don't believe anyone on this forum that have followed the trial as closely as us will be moved, but these PR companies are not interested in us. They are interested in the masses that have been superficially following the trial and may know just the broad strokes

 

[vansleuths]

You'll love Professor James Grant's column

http://criminallawza.net/

have a look, see what you think

I'm very much looking forward to reading his comments. During the trial, he was sitting a bit on the fence saying that he didn't want to overstep Masipa who had access to all of the evidence, some of which was not available to the public.

 

[turaj]

When you look at the scrum of media that was in the courtroom when Arnold was about to speak for the family, it was clear that it was a madhouse. This was even seen when Pistorius left the courtroom, flanked by police officers on all sides as he entered his car.

The media will only follow a story if there is public interest and they will only post a story online or on TV if they believe that this is something that readers/viewers want to watch. I live on the other side of the world and the Arnold Pistorius comments were broadcast on radio, made its way into print and were shown on TV as well. This wouldn't have happened if people weren't interested in this story or in his comments.

Whether they were distasteful or not is another point, but again, I believe that whatever the rules, they should apply to both sides equally.

What I feel sorry about in regards to the Steenkamp family is that they appear to be a family with humble means whom Reeva was financially assisting. They certainly do not have the financial means to do a PR blitz such as the the Pistorius family.

"humble means" with much integrity as compared to the other family.

 

[whiterum]

You'll love Professor James Grant's column

http://criminallawza.net/

have a look, see what you think

Thanks cottonweaver, what an excellent article. It appears that Masipa has made a few *advertiser censored* in her interpretation of certain points of law. She has got her knickers in a twist in her explanations which do not appear to fit the criteria needed for such decisions. So hopefully the astute Mr Nel with step up to the plate and vigorously untangle said knickers? So to speak !

 

[turaj]

The world of sports is very small and top athletes from different sports often can use the same PR firms to represent them.

When Tiger Woods was called out for his infidelity with escorts, the world looked at him as a sleaze ball and no company wanted to be associated with him. At that time, his PR team went to work.

We saw Tiger apologize for his actions, say he was giving up on the game of golf for an indefinite period of time while he went back to discover his roots and when he came back, he found god. It took a while, but he put this entire incident behind him and he's back on the golf circuit again.

Assuming that OP is not found guilty of murder on appeal if this happens, the same will happen with OP. His image will be rehabilitated in time. It is only a matter of time. These PR companies are that good. I don't believe anyone on this forum that have followed the trial as closely as us will be moved, but these PR companies are not interested in us. They are interested in the masses that have been superficially following the trial and may know just the broad strokes

Totally agree and they are working right now as we hash over the verdict...Uncle Arnold had them ready to go and no doubt they anticipated this result.

 

[vansleuths]

GAD? OP has GAD, and GAD keeps criminals out of prison in SA? You missed it, the psych eval showed that OP does not have GAD.

Enjoy your weekend!

<snipped for brevity>

<modsnip> He has Generalized Anxiety Disorder post incident. This clearly came out in the psych reports , and this will be one of the mitigating factors that Roux will try and use to get a non-custodial sentence.

There are lots of people in the prison system with GAD, but again, we're talking about a celebrity double amputee whose safety cannot be guaranteed in the prison system.

Please show me another world famous double amputee GAD inmate in the prison system.

There is backlash and pressure on Masipa to give a custodial sentence and Nel eluded to this in his argument against bail but we'll see if Masipa folds.

 

[cottonweaver]

The world of sports is very small and top athletes from different sports often can use the same PR firms to represent them.

When Tiger Woods was called out for his infidelity with escorts, the world looked at him as a sleaze ball and no company wanted to be associated with him. At that time, his PR team went to work.

We saw Tiger apologize for his actions, say he was giving up on the game of golf for an indefinite period of time while he went back to discover his roots and when he came back, he found god. It took a while, but he put this entire incident behind him and he's back on the golf circuit again.

Assuming that OP is not found guilty of murder on appeal if this happens, the same will happen with OP. His image will be rehabilitated in time. It is only a matter of time. These PR companies are that good. I don't believe anyone on this forum that have followed the trial as closely as us will be moved, but these PR companies are not interested in us. They are interested in the masses that have been superficially following the trial and may know just the broad strokes

Hi Vans, can appreciate why you are cynical - me too.

But.......Tiger Woods isn't a homicidal non-maniac (c. Weskoppies) - drugs and hyper promiscuity, infidelity. A sleazeball for sure but
not convinced you can compare public response to Tiger's transgressions to OP.
OJ for sure.

 

[jay-jay]

Thanks cottonweaver, what an excellent article. It appears that Masipa has made a few *advertiser censored* in her interpretation of certain points of law. She has got her knickers in a twist in her explanations which do not appear to fit the criteria needed for such decisions. So hopefully the astute Mr Nel with step up to the plate and vigorously untangle said knickers So to speak !

Ah .. something has just occurred to me < lightbulb moment > .. perhaps Judge Masipa is just playing with OP, and she is stringing this all out, and deliberately made errors, in order to make OP think that he has gotten away with it, only to have intentionally paved the way for the PT to appeal, and then for the PT to win it, and get him slammed up .. perhaps she is trying to make the eventual verdict/sentence as long drawn out and as painful as possible for him!

.. yeah .. if only ..

 

[jay-jay]

Totally agree and they are working right now as we hash over the verdict...Uncle Arnold had them ready to go and no doubt they anticipated this result.

I don't see them as the same thing at all though .. Pistorius is a killer, TW isn't.