Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[KarenUK]

I have serious doubts Masipa will come down on OP for Tasha's :

1- Masipa said that OP genuinely was distressed at the firearm going off, genuinely concerned about people around him

.

Respectfully snipped by me for space

Good Old Oscars "genuine" distress & remorse, it worked a treat - pass the green bucket please

 

[turaj]

I know this is probably not possible but if I were the Steenkamp family I would want to move as far away from SA as I could...I simply would find it hard to live in a country whose judicial system allowed my daughter's life to be taken by a man she loved and then for all intents and purposes the murderer will not have to alter his lifestyle much at all and he goes on his way...and on the way will make money off her death. I'd be gone.

 

[turaj]

Good Old Oscars "genuine" remorse, it worked a treat - pass the green bucket please

The judge really bought into his crying and vomiting.

 

[Scand]

WOW now I'm really really angry.Alex Crawford has just revealed on Sky News that Arnold Pistorius revealed to her, just prior to the beginning of Masipa's judgement, that the Pistorius clan was now looking to the future for OP. The family have a plan to get OP back into running with a goal towards the next Olympics & also have in place a plan for the rebuilding of the Oscar brand. The sense of entitlement & total lack of empathy for what their family member has done defies logic. This family has no morals & need to hang their heads in shame.

What? Next Olympics? How can he do that from jail? Oh, I see, they don't think he will even get a jail term. If that happens, I will be even more gutted than I am right now.


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[ApplesInMyBra]

The more I read (http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2013/sca2013-034.pdf & http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/1985/41.html etc. & judgement after Jub Jub about the tightening of dolus eventualis about motorists) about "subjective foresight", "reconciling himself towards this possibility" & "volitional state of mind" under dolus eventualis appellant cases, the more I see Masipa ruling as perhaps legally possible. Of course, I completely disagree with not finding a Pistorius guilty of murder, but one needs to look repeatedly at why it happened, and from different perspectives, to stop a miscarriage like this again.

It's complicated and I feel very easy to confuse, or at least it's hard to differentiate between eventualis and negligence. I perceive this law, from reading a very short series of case law about eventualis, as subjective to context, semantic and available for various loopholes. This may be the major problem in this trial, it's convoluted SA law that leads to a loose, easily contested application of the charge. If a judge wants to use a totality of evidence, a choice of evidence, or compartmentalise the evidence leads to a difference in the application of the law - in this trial which Masipa basically threw out the majority of the prosecution evidence.

Here is an article that explains why Masipa was RIGHT about Dolus Eventualis
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...a-was-right-on-dolus-and-murder/#.VBMi5_ldVNR

What does everyone think about it?

 

[Ginro]

What? Next Olympics? How can he do that from jail? Oh, I see, they don't think he will even get a jail term. If that happens, I will be even more gutted than I am right now.


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Yes, the S.A. athletics people (can't remember the organisations name) released a statement that he was welcome to begin training again. Will try and find the link so bear with me.

 

[rachael123]

In front of a grieving family.Could curse.:notgood:

Apparently the Pistorius family gave Masipa a RAND of applause when she left court earlier.

 

[Harmony 2]

WOW now I'm really really angry.Alex Crawford has just revealed on Sky News that Arnold Pistorius revealed to her, just prior to the beginning of Masipa's judgement, that the Pistorius clan was now looking to the future for OP. The family have a plan to get OP back into running with a goal towards the next Olympics & also have in place a plan for the rebuilding of the Oscar brand. The sense of entitlement & total lack of empathy for what their family member has done defies logic. This family has no morals & need to hang their heads in shame.

link?

 

[whiterum]

Apparently the Pistorius family gave Masipa a RAND of applause when she left court earlier.

Hahaha James !!!

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Why did Masipa call on Roux to speak to Oscar’s uncle to ensure there are no more ‘complications’???
What does this mean?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Legal Discussion after court proceedings from Channel 199 (audio)
Bongani Bingwa with David Dadic and James Aveyard:
https://soundcloud.com/giles-10/bongani-1/s-N4Uuj

Thank you again Giles. These are so informative. Looks from this discussion that she got an awful lot else wrong.

 

[DebinGA]

If I understand correctly it just means whether the accused KNEW the possible risks or was ignorant of them and SHOULD have known. In this case the question is whether Oscar knew that shooting at someone as he did, might kill them. Seems a simple and clear yes to me, no complications yet Masipa judged there is reasonable possibility he did not know.

I wish Nel had asked OP how long he'd lived in that house, how often he entered that wc daily when he was home, and then had OP come down and stand in the replica wc to show how impossible it would have been to miss "the intruder".

 

[Ginro]

Here is a link to Sports Illustrated. The IPC told the BBC Pistorius would be welcome to resume training if/when he can.

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2014/09/12/oscar-pistorius-verdict-paralympics-rio-2016

 

[AJ_DS]

Yes, in fact she gave reasons why he must have known:

1. She rejected the startle response

2. She accepted that he had criminal capacity

3. She accepted his proficiency with firearms

4. She called his story 'peculiar' (apologies for the paraphrasing)

5. She accepted that the toilet cubicle was small

I would not be surprised that Janet Henzen-du Toit surreptitiously manipulated little old confused meemaw Masipa throughout the Trial.

Masipa was solely in charge of courtroom proceedings whilst Janet was mainly responsible for the evidence and its interpretation which she spoon-fed to Masipa.

If anyone was bribed, my guess is that it was Janet and not Masipa.

 

[patCee]

Here is an article that explains why Masipa was RIGHT about Dolus Eventualis
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...a-was-right-on-dolus-and-murder/#.VBMi5_ldVNR

What does everyone think about it?

It was brought up in court by the DT how the gun ownership test has a similar question to the example given in the article re lawful v unlawful shooting. I don't remember the example exactly, but it was about shooting blindly without seeing a potential attacker. OP answered correctly that shooting in that circumstance would be unlawful. How does that fit with the writer's argument that JM was correct re Eventualis because OP thought it was lawful for him to shoot through the door. To me it doesn't fit at all.

 

[04009margaret]

OK everyone apparently the IPS have said that OP will not be banned & they would welcome him back.This was disclosed on Sky News, I really should stop watching this channel as my blood pressure can't deal with the information they are disclosing. We should all be outraged about this. If you are as outraged as I am, then consider voicing your opinion to them. Here is The International Paralympic Committee website & list of management..................... http://www.paralympic.org/the-ipc/about-us

Also confirmed on BBC.......http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/disability-sport/29179210

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Apparently the judge was voluntarily keeping herself away from any exposure to published articles and news broadcasts about the trial during the course of it. What an insular little world she must have created for herself by doing so.

Based on her wholesale rejection of the testimony of the witnesses who heard the screams, right then and there I lost all respect for this particular judge. And for her then to go on and say that these witnesses were likely confusing what they had read and heard with what actually happened (yes, she said that) was just totally disrespectful to these citizens. This judge then went on to further justify her rejection of these testimonies by citing that one had the flu, that they had been sleeping and just woken up, etc. But she then goes on to say something like "we must not speculate". After she had just done a whole lotta, lotta speculating herself.

In addition, this judge made numerous incorrect and at times almost bizarre statements throughout her "explanation". I won't even list them, there were so many. Oscar called 911? (An ambulance had to be called for AFTER the doctor neighbor arrived on the scene) Oscar performed resuscitation measures? (He had his fingers in her mouth, forgodsake.) And on and on.

THIS was a trial that was supposed to be going to showcase the South African justice system to the world? Good Lord!

 

[Giles]

Here is an article that explains why Masipa was RIGHT about Dolus Eventualis
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...a-was-right-on-dolus-and-murder/#.VBMi5_ldVNR

What does everyone think about it?

Wow, great article. Thanks for posting. The finer details are a little beyond me but it does help to know that she has applied the law correctly. I guess if this is accurate, Gerrie Nel is less likely to appeal.

 

[4MrsB]

I no longer believe Marsipa will sentence OP to any jail time behind bars.

If she was going to, I believe she would NOT have granted OP bail, instead - taking him into custody now (or at least made his DT work much harder at convincing her otherwise). This would have laid the ground work of what's to come. In other words, just because he is found guilty of CH (and not guilty of murder) he is not getting off Scott free, he will pay a price for taking a life due to foreseeable negligence.

BUT Marispa granted bail, so I think her message is clear - a slap on the wrist is waiting for self-serving, no rules apply to him, "Teflon coated" Oscar.

Man, I sure hope sponsors steer clear of this jerk.

 

[AJ_DS]

Apparently the judge was voluntarily keeping herself away from any exposure to published articles and news broadcasts about the trial during the course of it. What an insular little world she must have created for herself by doing so.

Based on her wholesale rejection of the testimony of the witnesses who heard the screams, right then and there I lost all respect for this particular judge. And for her then to go on and say that these witnesses were likely confusing what they had read and heard with what actually happened (yes, she said that) was just totally disrespectful to these citizens. This judge then went on to further justify her rejection of these testimonies by citing that one had the flu, that they had been sleeping and just woken up, etc. But she then goes on to say something like "we must not speculate". After she had just done a whole lotta, lotta speculating herself.

In addition, this judge made numerous incorrect and at times almost bizarre statements throughout her "explanation". I won't even list them, there were so many. Oscar called 911? (An ambulance had to be called for AFTER the doctor neighbor arrived on the scene) Oscar performed resuscitation measures? (He had his fingers in her mouth, forgodsake.) And on and on.

THIS was a trial that was supposed to be going to showcase the South African justice system to the world? Good Lord!

Agreed.

Perhaps Masipa suffers from onset dementia and/or senility… which would make her quite pliable and receptive to suggestion.