Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[Interested Bystander]

Let us not forget as well this was Oscar's cynical ploy to manipulate her strong belief for remorse from the perpetrator. She bent the law to jail a murderer for 235 years for his lack of remorse. Oscar, Roux, et al all knew this and used it to their advantage as evidenced by Jani Allen's "letter to Oscar" in which she claims she has it on good authority he has been taking acting lessons on how to feign remorse and present himself as broken. They could never convince the judge without this tactic. With it they could convince her that black was white.

If this story is true it is about time he/she stood up and be counted before the appeal, if it comes.

 

[whiterum]

What a stingy little so and so. :hilarious: If he continues to pursue the young ones he'll need to do better than that, he's not getting any younger.

Concerning Sam Taylor and co., I don't mind in the least they're selling their story and I believe them too, maybe I'm a sucker for a sob story, obviously J Masipa is too, except it's OP's story.

OP will definitely try to make a killing from all this publicity to facilitate his nightclub, yachting, expensive cars, young blondes, trips to Italy, 'lifestyle'. JMO

I totally believe Sam Taylor's story too, an obvious control freak narcissist she is describing once they feel they have reeled you in. Those recognisable traits, if you ever had the misfortune to hook up with one , so much so that you would never again give one the time of day as your life will be hell. You could compare notes and find that they all sing from the same hymn sheet , stinginess being the least of their nasty list of qualities. Poor Reeva the full truth probably dawned on her that night and she was trying to get out for good. IMO.

 

[vansleuths]

Not that Gerrie Nel and the prosecution team needs any help from us for an appeal, but I believe that a strong public voice behind them shows that there are citizens who believe an appeal is warranted and that the legal costs to proceed with this should not be an issue in the interest of justice.

During the trial, I had sent an email to the National Prosecution Association (NPA) of South Africa through their website ( http://www.npa.gov.za/ReadContent402.aspx ) and did receive a nice comment back from them.

Yesterday, I sent them another email about this verdict and quoted the recent blog post by Prof James Grant in my email. Professor Grant explains why Masipa incorrectly applied the law and he is very well regarded in South African legal circles.

There is not a lot that we can do other than have our voices heard and there are a number of good quotes above from other South African legal experts. If anyone feels so inclined, perhaps take a moment to forward a comment onto the NPA and let them know they have support behind them for an appeal.

Justice should be properly served in this case before that window is closed forever.

 

[cottonweaver]

This is very true. I am South African and there is a great deal of corruption. There is also a programme called BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) that allows employers to hire a black person over a white person even if the white person has more experience and/or better qualifications.

Hi Apples,

Lot of the large public sector organisations over here have positive discrimination quotas for recruitment here in the UK too.
I see where you are going with that and I must admit it did fleetingly cross my mind, but in all the SA published articles I have read on Masipa and on her verdict I haven't found any who either didn't cite her vast experience, intelligence or conversely, any who held back in saying she has got it wrong, has misunderstood x or y.

Anyway I was just reading that mother of STaylor article again, and actually she gives him the benefit of the doubt quite a lot and provides a lot of justifications/attempts at understanding for his behaviour. He really does seem like a very troubled and difficult person to deal with and I can totally appreciate why only one of his fellow athletes has made a supportive comment about him recently. Every one of his peers says he was fantastic operator when it came to the media and so I suppose, even if he had the overnight stay at Weskoppies he may still have been able to fool them too after all?

 

[soozieqtips]

That was my thought exactly - she only found him guilty on the one charge where she almost had no choice but to do so but even then didn't seem to think his blatant lying re the incident had any further implications. The more this sinks in the more things I find to puzzle over - her almost complete rejection of all State evdidence, both expert and layperson, and her almost complete acceptance of Pistorius's version desite acknowledging its many flaws. Plus it is still mind boggling that she could take his tears and remorse after the event as an indication of his thoughts and intentions before the shooting. I guess she has never done or said anything she has immediately regretted and wished could be taken back. I don't want to jump on any bribery bandwagon so all I can think of is she felt sorry for Pistorius and has thus tied herself into legal knots to find him ways out - or she is not nearly as smart as I thought she was. The fact that there was so much evidence she didn't even address in her findings is worriesome in the extreme and as someone else pointed out,
she spent more time dissecting the implications of Darren Fresco's mendacity than she did on OP's.

BIB - yes, she did. I think that highlighted even more how insignificant Reeva was in all this. She was just "the deceased", someone whose killing warranted no special consideration. All that mattered was that OP's act fooled her, so she didn't need to bother with any other witnesses who provided an alternative scenario. They were all mistaken. Well, I firmly believe she has set (will set) a murderer free, and judging by how out of control OP had become in the months before the killing, I think he'll do it again. I cannot see someone like him feeling humble or grateful that they've got away with murder. On the contrary, I think he gave away how he felt when he told the court he had accepted responsibility, because he'd shown up in court and had to put his life on hold! He will be festering about all this, the nerve of being charged with murder. I can see him getting more and more angry that he was ever put through this, especially if his career comeback doesn't go as planned. Hope Masipa can live with her decision, should it all go wrong.

 

[4MrsB]

Here's link to recent CITY PRESS, S.A. article:
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscar-pistorius-appeal-civil-claim-cards/

Some interesting points that are mentioned:

* NPA highly likely to file leave to appeal. "Appetite for appeal went all the way to the top", referring to National Director Of Public Prosecutors Nxasana. Barry Roux left brief meeting with Gerrie Nel on Friday absolutely convinced Nel would appeal the judgement (Roux comment provided by source close to Pistorius family).

* Reeva's parents set to continue their pursue of civil claim against Oscar. Their lawyer, Dup de Bruyn confirmed they would continue with it after case finalized.

* Police officers keeping close eye on Judge Masipa. The S.A. tactical response team "amaBerete", are stationed outside her house. They check on her every hour & escort her wherever she goes. All due to public's heavy criticism and growing furor around the acquittal of Pistorius's murder charge.

 

[RosieC]

I remember the Judge questioning this possession when Nel was giving his argument. I looked up the legal definition of possession and it's not a simple explanation. It appears that the Judge based her verdict on Oscar not having ownership. Iirc, Oscar had ordered a gun for that ammo? So Judge ignored that factor. Very selective reasoning here imo.

What reason did the Judge give to conclude that Oscar did not have ownership? His father did not testify. The only evidence was Oscar's say so, and she already conceded that he was a poor witness. Or am I missing something? I'm beginning to be surprised that they bothered with a trial at all.

 

[whiterum]

I'm still reading a lot and trying to unpack Masipa's reasoning, the legalese from previous rulings/ articles and the "unanimous" decision. It's extremely contradictory. It needs to go to Supreme Court because this is a terrible precedent. Also, I think that 'subjective foresight' is a problematic part of intention and think that part of the law should be replaced by objective foresight...

The idea of Pistorius writing a book is just wrong. South Africa needs to also introduce a law where the convicted cannot profit from their crime, especially given the extremely high rate of homicide.

Yes, I'm introducing laws now

Good luck with that one ( the book) the majority have heard enough of his balderdash. Who the hell would pay one halfpenny of their hard earned money to line his already bulging pockets with blood money. As for a film ( can still envisage his sister's embarrassing and disgusting re-enactment of Reeva being carried by OP from the toilet on his stumps ) what a family. No thanks to the movie or the book and I hope they are both boycotted by the public as a sign of respect for the victim Reeva and her family!!

 

[soozieqtips]

Good luck with that one ( the book) the majority have heard enough of his balderdash. Who the hell would pay one halfpenny of their hard earned money to line his already bulging pockets with blood money. As for a film ( can still envisage his sister's embarrassing and disgusting re-enactment of Reeva being carried by OP from the toilet on his stumps ) what a family. No thanks to the movie or the book and I hope they are both boycotted by the public as a sign of respect for the victim Reeva and her family!!

BIB - The thing is, it wouldn't even be a factual account. It would just expand on the lies he's told so far. People would pay to read that? Good luck to them.

He didn't even need to wait to find out what sentence he'd get before telling the world about his possible career comeback, a book, a movie. Well, I guess at least we know he's not 'severely' depressed anymore. So pleased for his rapid recovery :sick:

 

[whiterum]

BIB - yes, she did. I think that highlighted even more how insignificant Reeva was in all this. She was just "the deceased", someone whose killing warranted no special consideration. All that mattered was that OP's act fooled her, so she didn't need to bother with any other witnesses who provided an alternative scenario. They were all mistaken. Well, I firmly believe she has set (will set) a murderer free, and judging by how out of control OP had become in the months before the killing, I think he'll do it again. I cannot see someone like him feeling humble or grateful that they've got away with murder. On the contrary, I think he gave away how he felt when he told the court he had accepted responsibility, because he'd shown up in court and had to put his life on hold! He will be festering about all this, the nerve of being charged with murder. I can see him getting more and more angry that he was ever put through this, especially if his career comeback doesn't go as planned. Hope Masipa can live with her decision, should it all go wrong.

Excellent post and totally agree. Remember his unbelievable statement ' I will stand trial if I have to '. IMO he will be seething inside that the Judge had the audacity even to find him guilty of culpable homicide, such is his arrogant self- serving mindset.

 

[Viper]

RSBM
* Police officers keeping close eye on Judge Masipa. The S.A. tactical response team "amaBerete", are stationed outside her house. They check on her every hour & escort her wherever she goes. All due to public's heavy criticism and growing furor around the acquittal of Pistorius's murder charge.

Anyone think that Masipa is still ignoring the TV news programs, the newspaper, the Internet, and calls from friends, family, and colleagues? Now, <modsnip> Judge Masipa, about that 15 year sentence for CH and 5 year sentence for the weapons violation, are you going to have them run concurrently? Nah, I didn't think so, consecutively is so much better.

 

[delilah]

What reason did the Judge give to conclude that Oscar did not have ownership? His father did not testify. The only evidence was Oscar's say so, and she already conceded that he was a poor witness. Or am I missing something? I'm beginning to be surprised that they bothered with a trial at all.

Masipa said it was for the state to prove that he had the intention to possess the ammo. She said that the fact that pistorius senior had refused to give a statement saying the ammo was his had no bearing at all. OP said it wasn't his, even though it had been in his safe for years. She accepted that version saying the state had not proved intention.

The legal definition of possession is 'the control a person intentionally exercises toward a thing. In all cases, to possess something, a person must have an intention to possess it.' Masipa cited a bizarre example of a robber in a vehicle with an accomplice, the latter being in possession of a loaded AK47, but the former having also been charged with possession. The charges were subsequently dropped against robber no 1.

I don't recall Nel putting forward much evidence in relation to this charge. Maybe he thought it was so obvious OP was guilty there was no need to do so. I don't even recall him raising the point about OP having ordered a firearm compatible with the ammo.

I think this is a case in which commonsense indicates a person is guilty as charged but the pedantry of the law finds otherwise.

 

[cottonweaver]

yes, remember in closing arguments in August, Roux was explaining why Masipa did not have the "animus" for that ammo and there being a bit of discussion, which at that point i thought - were they having to explain it to her.
Correct me if wrong, but that's how i remember it

 

[jilly]

Reeva is dead and the only words were her texts/writings which clearly indicate her fears of an increasingly angry OP. So the judge dismisses the only words we have from Reeva saying relationships are "dynamic" and meanwhile takes the words of OP as truth.

Exactly, the point is Reeva is dead subsequent to her written statement that Oscar scares her sometimes. With all the other reckless gun evidence, Masipa could have made the inference that he killed her. She neglected to put the pieces of that circumstantial puzzle together as she should have. If Oscar had said that he was so mad at Reeva that he could kill her, Masipa would have chalked that up to "ups and downs" in a relationship.

 

[cottonweaver]

"Pistorius family joy

However, Roux is understood to be very hesitant to appeal&#8201;&#8211;&#8201;even if Pistorius is sentenced to time in prison, said the family insider. But his family does not expect this to happen.

A close family source said his lawyers were convinced Pistorius might avoid jail time altogether and be handed a suspended sentence instead.

The insider said Pistorius&#8217; uncle, Arnold, had told them it was a &#8220;very good judgment and they shouldn&#8217;t mess with it&#8221;.

&#8220;They realise they were lucky to get away with culpable homicide.&#8221;

Pistorius spent Friday night with his sister, Aimee, away from the home of uncle Arnold and aunt Lois Pistorius where he has been staying since the shooting.

Despite looks of relief on Friday, the family remain worried about the sentencing and the possibility of an appeal."

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/state-vs-oscar/
published 14 September,

Something tells me the recent trail related tweets from the Pisto clan will cease for the foreseeable- they won't want to be further antagonising public feeling.

 

[cottonweaver]

"The source close to the Pistorius family said despite being offered millions of rands for an interview, Pistorius was not speaking to anyone.

Television networks and foreign newspapers have been prepared to pay whatever it took for an interview&#8201;– even “six figures in pounds”.

However, Pistorius is not interested. Neither is his sister, Aimee, who has also been offered lucrative media deals."

How very high-minded of them. Saving it up for the book?

And arguably, they have already been paid by the media just last month:
"The Australian TV network which broadcast the re-enactment footage of Pistorius that was filmed by a US company as preparation for their forensic evidence allegedly paid $500&#8201;000 (R5.5&#8201;million) for the footage."

meanwhile oscar has been spotted as a regular visitor to a high-security, gold and diamond trading centre.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/state-vs-oscar/

 

[turaj]

I am South African and it is part of our culture to NEVER show up empty handed, much less when you visit loved ones. It is considered very bad form, and downright rude.

well that would describe Mr. Pistorius...bad form ..I would say murder is really bad form and definitely rude. Thanks for the Sa perspective.

 

[jslk]

I continue to feel depressed about all this.

Here is an interesting piece of commentary: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-just-a-chapter-in-a-scary-story-9731388.html

Three women a day in SA lose their lives at the hands of current or former partners [emoji17]

Opinion amongst my acquaintances is virtually complete acceptance of the intruder story and heavy scepticism about a domestic violence scenario, as though Reeva's case is being co-opted by a domestic violence lobby. I don't know why people don't seem to (want to?) believe it. I don't think mainstream media has gone into enough detail about why the defence just doesn't add up. JMO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[aa9511]

Let us not forget as well this was Oscar's cynical ploy to manipulate her strong belief for remorse from the perpetrator. She bent the law to jail a murderer for 235 years for his lack of remorse. Oscar, Roux, et al all knew this and used it to their advantage as evidenced by Jani Allen's "letter to Oscar" in which she claims she has it on good authority he has been taking acting lessons on how to feign remorse and present himself as broken. They could never convince the judge without this tactic. With it they could convince her that black was white.

I posted something from the Daily Mail a couple of days ago from Samantha, Oscar's ex-girlfriend's, mom. She said that whenever she would confront Oscar about something (being rude to her family, treating them badly, or some other thing), he would break down crying and apologize and beg for forgiveness. THE EXACT PATTERN WHICH YOU DESCRIBED. When he was caught in something wrong, that is what he would resort to.

I don't know if you saw Jodi Arias' trial or not, but one thing they kept repeating is pattern, pattern, pattern. There is usually some pattern of behavior that the person exhibits throughout their life.

I guess Judge Masipa could not comprehend this pattern of Oscar's.

 

[turaj]

Hi Apples,

Lot of the large public sector organisations over here have positive discrimination quotas for recruitment here in the UK too.
I see where you are going with that and I must admit it did fleetingly cross my mind, but in all the SA published articles I have read on Masipa and on her verdict I haven't found any who either didn't cite her vast experience, intelligence or conversely, any who held back in saying she has got it wrong, has misunderstood x or y.

Anyway I was just reading that mother of STaylor article again, and actually she gives him the benefit of the doubt quite a lot and provides a lot of justifications/attempts at understanding for his behaviour. He really does seem like a very troubled and difficult person to deal with and I can totally appreciate why only one of his fellow athletes has made a supportive comment about him recently. Every one of his peers says he was fantastic operator when it came to the media and so I suppose, even if he had the overnight stay at Weskoppies he may still have been able to fool them too after all?

I think all the skills he developed over the years in terms of dealing with the media etc. carried right over into the courtroom and he applied them in getting support from this judge. I think the same skillset in another courtroom...another judge would probably have failed.