Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[Lyra500]

Is it considered not professional for a judge in reading this verdict to call Reeva Steenkamp by name? I find calling her the "deceased" revolting. I realize that is what she is but she does have a name...she was a person. Gerry Nel always used her name. I guess that is a tactic the defense uses to make it seem less personal but at the point of verdict OP was accused of murdering Reeva Steenkamp.

I think even worse than that is that JM actually referred to her as "Steenkamp" on at least one occasion from what I recall.

There was something so rude, dismissive and belittling about that - almost as if she had some beef or disapproved of her in some way. I wondered at the time if it was just protocol, but thinking of British trials where a female has been killed, I can't imagine that during the summing up in the April Jones or Joanna Yeates murder trial these victims were referred to as "Jones" or "Yeates" by the judges concerned.

It just felt incredibly disrespectful and I was taken aback by it.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I don't use Twitter but I note many of you do. Any chance one of you tweeting someone like Karen Maughan, David Dadic or even Judge Chris Greenland and asking if they can tell us/find out what his current bail conditions are. I know that they are the same as those existing before the verdict. Masipa confirmed this right at the end of her statement but what are they, exactly? I am betting there is virtually nothing in place. I think many of us are interested in what exactly he is allowed to do and whether he is permitted to carry a gun. Masipa did ask where he was staying and was told at Uncle Arnold's but I see he and his sister stayed somewhere else at least the night after the trial.

 

[jilly]

What reason did the Judge give to conclude that Oscar did not have ownership? His father did not testify. The only evidence was Oscar's say so, and she already conceded that he was a poor witness. Or am I missing something? I'm beginning to be surprised that they bothered with a trial at all.

Exactly. It was (obviously based on what Oscar told her, which was, the ammo belonged to his father. I believe it was in Nel's closing that Masipa questioned Nel about the ownership of the ammo. Iirc, Nel told her that it was in Oscar's safe and therefore it went to possession.

http://citizen.co.za/241836/oscar-asked-firearm-judge/

She said he could not be found guilty of the unlawful possession of .38 ammunition either. Pistorius claimed the ammunition belonged to his father Henke, although his father never confirmed this.

He said he did not have the intention to possess the ammunition, although he did not have a license for a firearm capable of firing the ammunition.

Masipa concluded that the state had not proved that Pistorius had the necessary mental intention to possess the ammunition in the legal sense and he could therefore not be convicted on the charge.

 

[Ginro]

I know a few of us Websleuthers were wondering what Gerrie Nel was doing when the verdict was being delivered. He appeared to be industriusly taking notes with his head down for most of the time. Maybe the following extract gives us a clue.

"From the moment on Thursday when it became clear Masipa was going to find him not guilty of murder, Gerrie [Nel] started talking to the team about a possible appeal. Mark my words, he is studying case law as we speak," said a senior member of the prosecuting team.

Nel and everyone involved in the prosecution, including the team of detectives and experts, were "completely gutted" at the judge's verdict, the Sunday Times was told.

"We have all lost cases ... we listened to Masipa, with the greatest of respect, and the finding just didn't make sense.

"We will do what we always do. Calm down, sit around a table and look at the facts and then fight back," said the senior member of the prosecuting team.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/special/...dge-under-fire-while-state-is-urged-to-appeal

That's a decent article. As someone commented on the piece itself:

"When justice is supposed to be done, and is supposed to be seen as being done - the majority of society including the victims of the crime and their loved ones, witnesses, legal experts, media and all ordinary people out there are supposed to feel good and right about it, and about all repercussions of it - and have faith, trust and confidence in the justice system, and in the judge's competence or rationale in particular."

And therein lies the unhappiness the majority of people feel towards the verdict.

 

[cottonweaver]

Completely irrelevant to main topic thread but .....Interesting aside about Fresco in the ST book article .

ie. not what I expected about Fresco.

"In the book Taylor writes that Pretorius’ friend Darren Fresco phoned Samantha after their break up to tell her “the whole of Johannesburg” knows what a “*advertiser censored*” she is and that “our entire family had all better ‘watch our backs’ if we came to Johannesburg again”.

Samantha was insulted on Twitter by Pistorius’ friends so often that she later felt the need to write to Pistorius, asking him “please put a stop to this”.

Now I understand why ST says that OP was always particularly meticulous in paying for every meal/bar bill for his "boys". (But as reported earlier incredibly stingy when it came to the GFs etc)

All his friends were "bought and paid for"....

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/samantha-taylor-tells/

 

[Viper]

I'm wrestling with the idea that there's incompetence here or a hidden agenda.

My bet is on incompetence. Masipa and her two assessors just could not get it, and it does not appear that they applied much effort to even try. That's alright, an appealate panel of judges will get another shot at it, thankfully.

 

[bajas]

Interesting article from the Australian ABC:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-12/dixon-pistorius-verdict-wont-answer-all-our-questions/5739506

 

[jilly]

My bet is on incompetence. Masipa and her two assessors just could not get it, and it does not appear that they applied much effort to even try. That's alright, an appealate panel of judges will get another shot at it, thankfully.

Even their questions throughout the trial (which were few) - whether Reeva knew how to activate the alarm and that pesky extension cord, to name a couple, lacked substance when it came down to it.
I'd sure like to know the background of the Assessors. They sat on the bench like 2 zombies.

 

[cottonweaver]

I don't use Twitter but I note many of you do. Any chance one of you tweeting someone like Karen Maughan, David Dadic or even Judge Chris Greenland and asking if they can tell us/find out what his current bail conditions are. I know that they are the same as those existing before the verdict. Masipa confirmed this right at the end of her statement but what are they, exactly? I am betting there is virtually nothing in place. I think many of us are interested in what exactly he is allowed to do and whether he is permitted to carry a gun. Masipa did ask where he was staying and was told at Uncle Arnold's but I see he and his sister stayed somewhere else at least the night after the trial.

Interesting point. I never spotted that - so if he stayed at Aimee's after final verdict he could already be breaking bail?
I bet he was paralytically drunk as all these new exposes reveal, wonder if he set a fire on the living room floor again and danced around it as previously? Very ******up!

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

Paul -

Respectfully snipped by me.

Thanks Bobbie, I really appreciate your kindness. I've always followed this forum throughout but rarely posted. I was so tempted to when the discussions were about the Pistorius family using (abusing) their faith to justify/affirm their actions but I refrained. Mainly because you make yourself a target and, if one comments in a professional capacity, even more so. Like you I think this faith aspect is an important part of how his family's mistaken understanding of their faith make them "enablers" of his anti-social behaviours. It is a common phenomenon.

Perhaps we should start a new thread on that aspect or is religion per se forbidden, I wonder?

Thank you Paul

I'm not sure if you are joking with your suggestion that we start a thread on the role of mistaken understanding of faith in case. But, I gave it some thought. Apart from being a minefield, it would be impossible to set the parameters for such a discussion, and it could easily end up in a bunfight.

My major interest in crime comes from my interest in human evil and why people do the dreadful things that they do. Religions of all kinds are being, and have been, used to defend and perpetrate heinous acts throughout history. I'm not blaming religion per se. People use all kinds of high and mighty reasons to justify their bad behaviour. IMO in this case, it happens to be religion. But in the larger picture, there are factors like narcissism, feelings of entitlement etc.

I could go on and on, but I won't.

 

[cottonweaver]

This morning I noticed a lot of debris and dog hair on our floor (I have 3 jack russell terriers) so I decided to vaccuum. I chose to use our Dyson because it is the most efficient in performing the task. As I vaccuumed, I noticed a strange looking leaf, and as I vacuumed over it, I realized it was not a leaf but a dog turd. I had mistaken a leaf for a turd!!! My husband reckons that I am still responsible for cleaning the soiled vaccuum machine, since I was the one who made the error...

Inform your husband that unless he can prove it's a case of eventualis/clear foresight you can't possibly be held responsible...

 

[soozieqtips]

Interesting point. I never spotted that - so if he stayed at Aimee's after final verdict he could already be breaking bail?
I bet he was paralytically drunk as all these new exposes reveal, wonder if he set a fire on the living room floor again and danced around it as previously? Very ******up!

Yes. He broke his bail conditions. Do you think anything will come of it? Me neither.

 

[lonetraveler]

I must say that I'm disappointed in this verdict or lack thereof. IMO this was a simple case of domestic violence that resulted in death. Domestic violence wasn't even considered in this verdict. I say that this judge is a disgrace to her office. :banghead:

 

[lithgow1]

I think even worse than that is that JM actually referred to her as "Steenkamp" on at least one occasion from what I recall.

There was something so rude, dismissive and belittling about that - almost as if she had some beef or disapproved of her in some way. I wondered at the time if it was just protocol, but thinking of British trials where a female has been killed, I can't imagine that during the summing up in the April Jones or Joanna Yeates murder trial these victims were referred to as "Jones" or "Yeates" in the Judges summing up and verdict announcement.


It just felt incredibly disrespectful and I was taken aback by it.

I didn't notice to be honest but I couldn't watch too much of it before coming here to read the rest - I knew what was coming or at least could make a good guess at it and just didn't want to see any Pistorius family smirking. Now though it all makes me wonder if that's why Uncle Arnold always had that creepy smirk on his face, even when things seemed to be going bad for Pistorius.

But as you say it is unfeeling to refer to her only as 'the deceased' and even worse to call her by her last name. Pistorius was given the respect of a 'Mr' before his name so you'd like to think that the woman he blasted to death was at least deserving of a 'Ms' if not her first name.

 

[Lyra500]

Interesting point. I never spotted that - so if he stayed at Aimee's after final verdict he could already be breaking bail?
I bet he was paralytically drunk as all these new exposes reveal, wonder if he set a fire on the living room floor again and danced around it as previously? Very ******up!

I thought both Oscar and Aimee lived with Uncle Arnold in his big swanky mansion.

 

[turaj]

Even their questions throughout the trial (which were few) - whether Reeva knew how to activate the alarm and that pesky extension cord, to name a couple, lacked substance when it came down to it.
I'd sure like to know the background of the Assessors. They sat on the bench like 2 zombies.

agree...the only time they conferred is about when to "take tea" and how long...often you could hear the whispering.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Interesting point. I never spotted that - so if he stayed at Aimee's after final verdict he could already be breaking bail?
I bet he was paralytically drunk as all these new exposes reveal, wonder if he set a fire on the living room floor again and danced around it as previously? Very ******up!

I think Aimee also lives at Uncle Arnold's but I could be wrong and probably am as I remember him saying he rang Aimee when he was hiding in a cupboard but, thereagain, he could have been ringing her mobile phone in another part of the house. Uncle Arnold's house is very large and I am sure I read OP lives in a bungalow in the grounds. I thought it sounded as though they both together went somewhere else. I have always thought Aimee knows her brother committed murder, hence her extreme anxiety in court. I think she was petrified of him being sussed.

 

[turaj]

Interesting point. I never spotted that - so if he stayed at Aimee's after final verdict he could already be breaking bail?
I bet he was paralytically drunk as all these new exposes reveal, wonder if he set a fire on the living room floor again and danced around it as previously? Very ******up!

In all honesty that psy report while I now see in fact dismissed the GAD did allude to many issues OP has and conclusion as I remember it is that he is a mess. I would think given some liquor and no doubt taking meds to cope with just getting out of bed during this trial...he could do significant damage to himself or more probably those around him.

 

[Really?]

Here's link to recent CITY PRESS, S.A. article:
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscar-pistorius-appeal-civil-claim-cards/

Some interesting points that are mentioned:

* NPA highly likely to file leave to appeal. "Appetite for appeal went all the way to the top", referring to National Director Of Public Prosecutors Nxasana. Barry Roux left brief meeting with Gerrie Nel on Friday absolutely convinced Nel would appeal the judgement (Roux comment provided by source close to Pistorius family).

* Reeva's parents set to continue their pursue of civil claim against Oscar. Their lawyer, Dup de Bruyn confirmed they would continue with it after case finalized.

* Police officers keeping close eye on Judge Masipa. The S.A. tactical response team "amaBerete", are stationed outside her house. They check on her every hour & escort her wherever she goes. All due to public's heavy criticism and growing furor around the acquittal of Pistorius's murder charge.

BBM:

maybe they should keep in eye on her off-shore accounts.................bwahahahha.....just kidding*

 

[Really?]

In all honesty that psy report while I now see in fact dismissed the GAD did allude to many issues OP has and conclusion as I remember it is that he is a mess. I would think given some liquor and no doubt taking meds to cope with just getting out of bed during this trial...he could do significant damage to himself or more probably those around him.

Is it legal for him to purchase a nightclub?