Trial Discussion Thread #56 - 14.15.10, Day 45 ~ sentencing~

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I need a bit of help please. I have been thanking posts and some have been accepted and others have taken me to report post. What am I doing wrong? TIA
If it takes you to 'report post' in error, try refreshing the page and try again. The report button is on the left, so it's a bit of a mystery why it's taking you there from the 'thanks' on the opposite side. Are you using a computer or phone?
 
All the definitive ones. Which facts disprove Oscar's version? None of them.
As information was deleted from OP's phone, and the phone mysteriously went walkabouts for almost 2 weeks, I'd say the judge was not in full possession of the facts.
 
I think he will get a custodial sentence. If it were me I would sentence him to whatever it took to have him actually serve about three years. I'll call that a prediction. I actually think a house arrest sentence is not in his own best interests and I'm willing to bet Masipa will think that too. With the public largely gunning for him, and with his personality and impulse control issues it will be harder for him to succeed in reintegrating and rehabilitating with even the small measures of freedom house arrest offers. Better to have the structure of prison and the absence from the public eye for a period of time to give everybody opportunity for healing and perspective. I don't think he'll be a danger to others if he is given house arrest, but I think he'll get in his own way.

Quite right, milady ;) he will be safer in prison. With all those nasty people out there, being nasty about him, we wouldn't want any of them to hurt poor little Oscar, would we?
 
I'm not claiming that it is in the purview of the criminally charged to decide what should be examined as potential evidence, I'm claiming that human nature is what it is.

And because of that we've got the law. Attempting to defeat or obstruct the administration of justice is against the law. See, it's really that simple.
 
Can Nel complain to a higher authority if Masipa keeps chivvying him along like she was doing today?

I don't see how her attitude is serving the interests of justice.
 
N: What you're recommending correctional supervision, house arrest?

AV:.... I would most definitely consider that as an option...

N: So accused would be free to attend events and travel?

AV: That's correct. People should be able to pursue a career....

Nel asks if she's aware lawyers get sent to prison. AV says she has dealt with a caase where someone who stole a slice of cheese was sent to prison.

???Surreal.

BBM
I'm catching up with the morning session. I have NO WORDS to describe what I feel listening to this witness.
Never in my life I'll never be able to forget this. It's beyond everything I ever could have imagined about what could be accepted by a justice system.
 
If it takes you to 'report post' in error, try refreshing the page and try again. The report button is on the left, so it's a bit of a mystery why it's taking you there from the 'thanks' on the opposite side. Are you using a computer or phone?

Thank you for your reply, I am using a computer, I have no idea what I did haha, I am sure I will get the hang of it though
 
Can Nel complain to a higher authority if Masipa keeps chivvying him along like she was doing today?

I don't see how her attitude is serving the interests of justice.

She's made it clear in my mind that she thinks the testimonies of Reeva's family and friends are a waste of court time. I don't know when and where she lost her compassion or if she had any to start with, but it's sad to see a judge give all her sympathy to the accused, yet has nothing for Reeva's family.
 
Photo 55 for one

.. but I want to hear from June which specific facts she was referring to that the D T had on their side. I' m really keen to know what these facts were, because I believe she is confusing fact with opinion (i.e. one of Masipa's 'facts' was hearing how 'remorseful' OP was immediately after the event .. believe it or not, June, that is not ACTUAL FACT, that's OPINION)
 
BBM
I'm catching up with the morning session. I have NO WORDS to describe what I feel listening to this witness.
Never in my life I'll never be able to forget this. It's beyond everything I ever could have imagined about what could be accepted by a justice system.

I feel your pain. Just to clarify the "cheese stealer" - apparently it was his crime #14 :-))

Dadic:
Vergeer makes it sound like the cheese stealer was imprisoned for an insignificant crime. He had 13 previous convictions.

https://twitter.com/DavidDadic/status/522310487074439168
 
.. but I want to hear from June which specific facts she was referring to that the D T had on their side. I' m really keen to know what these facts were, because I believe she is confusing fact with opinion (i.e. one of Masipa's 'facts' was hearing how 'remorseful' OP was immediately after the event .. believe it or not, June, that is not ACTUAL FACT, that's OPINION)

Hear, Hear!!!
 
I feel your pain. Just to clarify the "cheese stealer" - apparently it was his crime #14 :-))

Dadic:
Vergeer makes it sound like the cheese stealer was imprisoned for an insignificant crime. He had 13 previous convictions.

https://twitter.com/DavidDadic/status/522310487074439168

The funny thing is AV was trying to 'one up manship' with Nel, haha, when he said that there are people in prison for tax evasion!! She's that crass!
 
I see many of your points but this family have NEVER wordlessly tolerated anything negative about OP. IMO they have been disengenuous ('we are trying to save two lives here'); immature (to Nel, by an adult woman, 'you should be ashamed of yourself'); confrontational ('how do you sleep at night', muttered by, of all people, the killer); tasteless in flaunting their wealth (the cars analogy), hypocritical (all the religious tweets from OP and his brother when they certainly don't live their lives like any Christian I know) and quite possibly criminal (the phone tampering). As you say, it goes both ways, and they have never been on the back foot when it comes to getting their point across - they must run that PR woman ragged.

I don't agree with you at all re the facts of the case. You can certainly trump me there as Mapisa obviously agrees with you, but I still find her pick and mix attitude to all the evidence presented to be very disturbing, as do many South African legal analysts. I would agree that, in retropsect, a charge of dolus eventualis may have been the wiser course, but only in terms of an end result, not in terms of what i think took place that night.

Re the tampering claim, the Pistorii would have lawyers all over Barry Bateman and Mandy Weiner were it not essentially true that he took the phone and wiped stuff off it. If you want to claim he may have done that 'accidentally' then so be it, but it' an incredibly generous way of looking at it, almost to the point of head in the sand. We don't know for sure what was wiped, and it may have been harmless or merely embarrasing, but whatever it was the fact that it happened (again, they have not challenged it) is still disturbing in essence and suspicious IMO that he/they would do/condone that course of action. Very suspicious in fact.

If you see this from their perspective Oscar made a terrible, fatal mistake and is a shattered person because of it. If the state and the public turn his horribly misplaced and fatal judgement that night into vicious domestic violence and a man trying to escape his murderous actions his family has a right and even obligation to be angry about that. To resist it without exception. That's what families do for an 'innocent' man or woman. It is that disconnect between what the facts say and what the state and public say that makes their position almost an impossible series of damned if you dos, damned if you don'ts. I think it's absurd to think they don't care about the loss of Reeva and her family's pain. Of course they do. But they're in a tough spot walking a tough line. And Nel IS an a$$ sometimes. I can see why she said that. I wasn't really bothered by what Oscar said to Gina Myers, and though I totally empathize with her discomfort, I think if you speak publicly about a trial and appear at a public trial you should not expect to be insulated from the environment of that trial, including the defendant.

The verdict and fact finding of Masipa and the assessors is thoroughly misunderstood in my view. It was NOT pick and mix. It was a logic and reason based verdict of elimination - if fact A is true and unopposed and supported by evidence then facts B and C cannot be true. It was perfectly reasoned on facts and arguments that were proposed and supported here by a few posters for months.

When I said accidentally I meant that the wiping of the phone might have happened through incompetence or lack of knowledge rather than just happenstance. For example he might have been trying to make targeted changes to files or folders but screwed up and deleted the entire contents. Or wanted to just wipe out some embarrassing but otherwise irrelevant things and not known how so just reset the whole thing. Or might have wiped out the phone trying to do an OS upgrade or other maintenance. We really don't know. I'm not trying to make excuses, and I agree that it is completely appropriate to view it with disapproval and suspicion, but I'm just not comfortable jumping to conclude the worst. We simply don't have enough information.
 
She's made it clear in my mind that she thinks the testimonies of Reeva's family and friends are a waste of court time. I don't know when and where she lost her compassion or if she had any to start with, but it's sad to see a judge give all her sympathy to the accused, yet has nothing for Reeva's family
And Reeva's family have had to witness this day in and day out for eight months, and that's without the year they waited for it to come to trial. If OP is "broken", it's 100% his own doing, his own fault, even though his supporters would like people to believe it's the media's fault for writing mean things about him. But Barry Steenkamp is broken through no actions of his own. He's suffered a stroke due to the immense pain and heartache at losing his little girl under awful circumstances. One man is broken though his own actions, and one man is broken because of the other man's actions. Yet Masipa has compassion for only one of them.
 
So which facts were they, you haven't answered my question (mainly because you can't).

I've discussed what I, others, Masipa and the assessors saw as the definitive facts ad nauseum here. The judgement to me is very clear. Perhaps you could point out what facts prove Oscar's version to be untrue. Hint: there are none.
 
If you see this from their perspective Oscar made a terrible, fatal mistake and is a shattered person because of it. If the state and the public turn his horribly misplaced and fatal judgement that night into vicious domestic violence and a man trying to escape his murderous actions his family has a right and even obligation to be angry about that. To resist it without exception. That's what families do for an 'innocent' man or woman.
Nope your wrong, many families would refuse to talk or associate with their children.

Happens all the time, sons going to help terrorists, girls who violate some cultural taboo.

The verdict and fact finding of Masipa and the assessors is thoroughly misunderstood in my view. It was NOT pick and mix. It was a logic and reason based verdict of elimination - if fact A is true and unopposed and supported by evidence then facts B and C cannot be true. It was perfectly reasoned on facts and arguments that were proposed and supported here by a few posters for months.
Are you saying Pistorius' version which he contradicted himself and contradicted forensic and photo evidence, is unopposed?

Do you know what a version is?

This is important, it is not the intruder excuse.

When I said accidentally I meant that the wiping of the phone might have happened through incompetence or lack of knowledge rather than just happenstance. For example he might have been trying to make targeted changes to files or folders but screwed up and deleted the entire contents. Or wanted to just wipe out some embarrassing but otherwise irrelevant things and not known how so just reset the whole thing. Or might have wiped out the phone trying to do an OS upgrade or other maintenance. We really don't know. I'm not trying to make excuses, and I agree that it is completely appropriate to view it with disapproval and suspicion, but I'm just not comfortable jumping to conclude the worst. We simply don't have enough information.
So if someone kills a girl, lets just say this, and then the family of said girl is found dead days after.

We should not suspect some connection here?
 
Watching the Sky News round up with Kim's testimony. It's as upsetting now as it was this afternoon.
 
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