Trial Discussion Thread #59 - 14.21.10, Day 48 ~ sentencing~

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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/22/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-sentenced.html?_r=0
AFRICA

Oscar Pistorius’s 5-Year Sentence May Mean Move to House Arrest
By ALAN COWELL, OCT. 21, 2014.

On the street outside the courtroom, some South Africans told reporters that Mr. Pistorius should have been jailed for 10, or even 20, years.
Reuters quoted Johannes Mbatha, 38, a minibus taxi driver in Johannesburg, as saying. “It shows our society hasn’t transformed”...
“If it was a black man, he would have never received such a light sentence,”
Mr. Mbatha said. “But that’s how things are in South Africa.”

that's the heartbreaker in all of this ................ so bloody obvious to all MOO

I venture to add would he have been a ''nobody'' white guy the sentence may have been longer as well MOO

race and advantaged background played heavily
 
FYI opinion:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2014/10/21/oscar-pistorius-sentencing/17649779/
Oscar Pistorius sentenced to five years in prison
Rebecca Weber and Zaheer Cassim, Special for USA TODAY 21 October 2014.

Legal experts said Masipa managed to remain uninfluenced by the public pressure in South Africa over the course of the lengthy trial.
"She's a really, really well-balanced judge," said Mannie Witz, a criminal defense attorney in Johannesburg who mentored Masipa for a year when she was training to be a lawyer in 1991. "She's really what you want in a judge — she's impartial, she doesn't follow media, she won't be influenced by anything."

I may have believed that IF she had made the sentence 5 years plus one day! (at minimum)
 
FYI opinion:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2014/10/21/oscar-pistorius-sentencing/17649779/
Oscar Pistorius sentenced to five years in prison
Rebecca Weber and Zaheer Cassim, Special for USA TODAY 21 October 2014.

Legal experts said Masipa managed to remain uninfluenced by the public pressure in South Africa over the course of the lengthy trial.
"She's a really, really well-balanced judge," said Mannie Witz, a criminal defense attorney in Johannesburg who mentored Masipa for a year when she was training to be a lawyer in 1991. "She's really what you want in a judge — she's impartial, she doesn't follow media, she won't be influenced by anything."

Sadly even by common sense and evidence.
 
FYI opinion:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2014/10/21/oscar-pistorius-sentencing/17649779/
Oscar Pistorius sentenced to five years in prison
Rebecca Weber and Zaheer Cassim, Special for USA TODAY 21 October 2014.

Legal experts said Masipa managed to remain uninfluenced by the public pressure in South Africa over the course of the lengthy trial.
"She's a really, really well-balanced judge," said Mannie Witz, a criminal defense attorney in Johannesburg who mentored Masipa for a year when she was training to be a lawyer in 1991. "She's really what you want in a judge — she's impartial, she doesn't follow media, she won't be influenced by anything."

I can wholeheartedly believe that JM totally ignored the media throughout. She made a pointed comment in her sentencing judgment to show that she became aware of the backlash after the verdict - along lines of society can't get what it wants and popularity contests. (Must admit latter amused me as it sounds familiar. I think public more into justice than popularity.)

From the same article you quote, a member of public says:
"I think it should have been 10 to 15 years and the only reason that it's less is because of his contribution to society and his disability," said Ilanit Chernick, 22, of Johannesburg. "I think he will be out within the next year or two because of good behavior, which is an injustice to the justice system."
In terms of contribution to society I have thought throughout sentence mitigation phase, it would be interesting to measure exactly what he has actually contributed to society other than raising the profile of disabled sports and awareness of disability and rights therein.
I think most of his charitable acts were motivated by raising his own profile. Classic PR strategy. Meaningless in a sense. Good PR= £££ sponsorship.
We know he was of huge PR and symbolic value, on a global level, to the state of SA and we know they love their sporting heroes in SA. But I'd love to hear of some examples of real altruism.
 
Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman 14h14 hours ago

Tune in to the BBC (DSTV 400) at 9:30pm (8:30pm UK) for a special #OscarPistorius report. I’ll be sitting on a panel.

Has this been recorded?
 
I hope there is an appeal...there are so many dissenting voices rising after this verdict and it is quite clear that the sentence is indecently lenient. My opinion about Reeva's parents being OK with this is that they are not vengeful and are emotionally drained.
My thanks to all the posters here for an informative source of info and debate.
 
Thank so much for this!!

A question. Does money have had to come from the accused to prove loss of support? Can't they get money they need and don't have from someone/somewhere else and simply show the paperwork?

After all, not all those accused have money and not all of those who do offer it to the victims.

Plus, what is a loss of support claim for anyway? In the US you can be a billionaire and still bring a civil case against someone.

I just don't get it and must be missing something here.

BIB . . . good question

I don't know at all how civil claims work in SA or the US (or any other country for that matter :). From Greenlands words I took it that they have to show need for support towards OP. Assuming if they got financial support from another source it may have compromised their claim.

Actually, I am guessing, more or less . . . :thinking:
 
Someone upthread asked what this meant:

"@carlpistorius : Buddy, your self righteousness or money wont save you @realDonaldTrump - time to consider eternity."


If it's a serious question, my feeling is that most, perhaps ALL, of what Carl tweets can best be understood through the lens of his Christian beliefs.

In this case, "Trump you better think twice. Right now, you're only interested in temporal, earthly things while, at your peril, you are ignoring/rejecting your soul. The latter will have greater and long-lasting (eternal) consequences."

Shorthand: Carl tweets: "WE'RE going to heaven. You're going to hell."

Hi, and thanks a lot. Really liked the shorthand interpretation you kindly offered ;)

I was one of the people seriously trying to make sense of it. The other was Susza if I am right. Being no native english speaker I sometimes struggle getting to the bottom . .
 
Oscar Trial Channel ‏@OscarTrial199 17h17 hours ago

Coming up at 7 PM tonight @KatyKatopodis hosts a one-hour special #199editors broadcast. With @Eusebius @waldimar @MaridaFitz @gwala
 
I've been thinking about why the Pistorius case matters so much to me.

It is because a man shot and killed his partner in a moment of rage and hubris, and now as far as the law is concerned, it didn't happen. DV is brushed under the carpet.

It is because a one-time hero has been protected from this ugly truth about himself being recognised, and his family is indignant that it is raised. A man with anger issues certainly, and possibly deeper psychiatric issues, is defined as an anxious man now in mourning for a woman he loved. I cannot understand any of the psychiatric assessments he had. How can someone come to terms with and deal with what he actually did if he invented a more "respectable" crime for himself?

It is above all because a lie is now reported as the truth. This is bad for justice - the verdict is a nonsense - how can it serve as precedent for other cases? And it is perversion of our sense of reason.

It is not about June Steenkamp. She is happy with the verdict, and that is a personal decision for her.

I am prepared to accept that a person is found not guilty because the case against him is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt. But I am not prepared to accept a "story" that is an obvious lie, because a judge who is a trier of fact declares that it is a fact. It was a trial of smoke and mirrors and a judgment deficient in analysis and reasoning.

I am not South African, but the judiciary took a very bold decision to broadcast the trial live, so that justice could be seen to be done. All that happened is it was seen not to be done.

:goodpost: .. espesh BBM .. it will now be written into history that Pistorius's version of events was the absolute truth, and that's just plain wrong when there is so much evidence to say otherwise.

Had this been a jury trial, in the UK, with all those things placed in front of them that we were made party to .. and more (i.e. things that the judge had in her posession) .. together with things like the jury visiting the scene of the crime, etc, etc .. there would be absolutely no question that the jury would've arrived at a verdict of premeditated murder and Pistorius knowingly killing Reeva .. absolutely no question at all. There have been trials like this already where the evidence has been no different to that in this case (i.e. where the evidence could be argued away one way or another) but when you have twelve reasonable people, sitting there taking in all that is being said, and all weighing up the overall picture, then you have the best chance of arriving at a correct and competent verdict. If it wasn't for our juries, then we would have people like Stuart Hazell and Mark Bridger more or less walking free, as a judge like Masipa would've believed their lies (both of them tried to make out their crimes of murder were accidents). Our jury system isn't perfect, but it's one hell of a lot safer than the system I have witnessed in this trial.
 
After Masipa's reasoning behind her verdict, I understand the thought process of those who are pleased with today's outcome because they expected no jail time at all, but I'm sorry, that's a cop-out..not justice. When sentencing for CH is 0-15 based on the level of negligence and aggravating factors, how much more negligent can one be? What are the actions of someone who would get 6-15? Five years for pumping a trapped defenseless woman's body with three black talon bullets is incomprehensible to me.

But then it gets worse? Masipa gives him a sentence dressed up as 5 years with no suspension, when in actuality it's under some subsection that allows him the possibility of being paroled after a mere 10 months?!! Disgraceful!

That said, Reeva's parents accepting the sentence is understandable to me. They want closure, they NEED closure...and no one can fault them for that. They had to sit through 7 months of hearing from the PT how their daughter was tragically executed, and from the DT how the man who executed her is a victim himself and should not be held accountable. Reeva deserved far better justice IMO, but true to form, her parents accepted the court's decisions with grace, dignity, and class. They are the type who should be admired and regarded as an inspiration to the citizens of SA, not some self-righteous trigger-happy athlete with deep pockets. MOO

Couldn't agree more, GT .. everything you've said there.
 
The court in its judgment did find OP intentionally shot in putative self defence.

It didn't make a finding as to whether his mistaken beliefs were reasonable, but it did make a finding that he took steps in response to his mistaken beliefs which the reasonable man would not have done as he would have foreseen the possibility of unlawfully killing the person behind the door as a consequence.

This properly constitutes culpable homicide, and was not contradicted in the sentencing judgment.

(Please be assured I'm not picking on you mrjitty, I do always reply when I feel something significant is not quite right)

No that is fine.

I worked as a barrister and solicitor so I am more than used to some issue based rough and tumble.

At least I understand your argument now.

So in summary I would have expected the result you articulate as the only way the judge could find CH

Namely Self Defence + Unreasonable Mistake

However I find no evidence she found self defence applied - in fact she fails to work through the test in any coherent fashion and even states the law incorrectly.

The accused had intention to shoot at the person in the toilet but
states that he never intended to kill that person. In other words he
raised the defence of putative private defence.

As pointed out by Prof Grant - with self defence you intend to kill (direct or eventualis) lawfully


In particular we would have expected her to work through the test for self defence and make factual findings as to each element.

If you are also a lawyer then I am teaching you to suck eggs here, but the Appeal Court should not have to guess what findings the Court is making and what legal tests are being considered.

I don't think we can just assume she found self defence.

In particular the force was not reasonable in the circumstances and there was no imminent threat - therefore self defence could not apply.

Furthermore OP ruled out self defence in his own testimony.

So no - I don't think that explains it at all.

You can actually see in her judgement that she begins to consider self defence but then instead of working through the law of self defence, she proceeds to consider entirely different matters.

The Court cannot simply assume self defence applied without considering the tests. And certainly if the judge has failed to work through the tests for self defence, the Appeal Court cannot assume that the Judge so held.

Indeed as you can see in the judgement - she only makes a specific finding on the "putative" mistake part - and not on the self defence part.

Indeed the findings she goes on to make about the options open to the accused demonstrate that the force deployed was not reasonable in the circumstances.

From Prof Grants blog:

To succeed with a claim of self or private defence, one must satisfy a number of specific requirements. These requirements can be divided into those which relate to the attack, and those that relate to the response. The requirements of the attack are as follows:

1) One must be under an unlawful attack;

2) Which has commenced or is imminent;

3) Against a legally protected interest – such as life, bodily integrity, or property (of significant value), or the life, bodily integrity, or property of another.

The requirements of the defence are as follows:

4) Force used in response must be directed at the attacker (and no-one else);

5) Force must be necessary;

6) The extent of force must be necessary and reasonable.

So the judge made finding against points 5 and 6, and furthermore, point 2 does not apply.

But you know - a Court has to run through this list and put the facts to it.

You can't just assume SD applied, and no Appeal Court would either.
 
I hope there is an appeal...there are so many dissenting voices rising after this verdict and it is quite clear that the sentence is indecently lenient. My opinion about Reeva's parents being OK with this is that they are not vengeful and are emotionally drained.
My thanks to all the posters here for an informative source of info and debate.

I agree Libra.

Reeva's parents must be drained in every possible way - physically, mentally, emotionally and financially. I'm drained by it, and all I had to do was sit in front of the computer with a stiff drink and rant and rave.
 
I agree with you that the court found that Oscar shot in putative self defence. It did not make a finding as to whether his mistaken beliefs were reasonable, but it did make a finding that he had those beliefs and they motivated his shooting, in other words, that his version was reasonably possibly true, or even stronger, that it was true.

To do this, JM had to accept the ludicrousness of his version. e.g. Oscar knew Reeva was awake, so before drawing the curtains and plunging himself in total darkness, why wouldn't he have said "Angel do you mind switching on your bedside light so that I can draw the curtains and see my way to move the fans and avoid tripping over the extension cords and put your jeans on that LED light that is bothering me before getting into bed?"

JM also had to reject strong evidence which contradicted his version, including expert witness testimony, e.g. Mangena's analysis that Reeva's body fell after shot 1, so later shots hit her repositioned body, hence a beat between shots 1 and the later shots. According to Masipa, he shot very quickly so she could not have screamed, contrary to what Prof Saayman testified and Mangena implied.

All this makes about as much sense to me as a creationist rejecting palaeontology. A judge is required to reason through all the evidence. Masipa accepted that Oscar didn't intend to kill because he aimed low, but she didn't explain how or why Oscar thought that the person was upright so that aiming low would avoid killing. She accepted it because Oscar said so.

(last para snipped) .. another brilliant post, RosieC!
 
june-steenkamp-barry-steenkamp.jpg


June and Barry Steenkamp - the relief of the trial being over is written on their faces. I'm glad that they know that most people watching this trial had them and Reeva in their thoughts.
 
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