Trial Discussion Thread #59 - 14.21.10, Day 48 ~ sentencing~

[Estelle]

These are my idealist hopes, wishes, thoughts and predictions for OP:

1. The State mounts an appeal on the verdict. If they can on the sentence too to make it appropriate to the verdict of murder and also for the illegal ammunition. While the Appeal is being sought after, that OP is not given bail as IMO he could flee. He may as well be in prison to serve his time as it is not likely to be reduced.

2. That OP will never compete in athletics again anywhere but could contribute voluntarily.

3. That he eventually tells someone the truth as telling the truth sets you free and he later tells the Steenkamps. But I am not banking on it. I hope he at least tells a Psychologist instead of playing games in therapy puking, crying and lying and wasting his and everyone else's time. (I don't think Harsenburg is the right one for him now.) Otherwise, he will always have demons/ghosts in his mind and have to live a lie. Age 30yo, is the time most people reach maturity so it is important for his personal growth to be able to own up to things in his past, seek forgiveness and let his subconscious mind be free to be creative. He could get depressed and try to commit suicide otherwise. Anger management would be a start.

4. That he occupies his mind and considers completing his degree online while he is in confinement as there will be few distractions.

5. As I predict he has NPD, he will probably be very attention-seeking in prison and I have little hope for real change as he cannot be honest. he is a Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde character who will charm some wardens and nurses who give him attention but will be nasty to others.

6. That he does not associate with ex-crims again because that will be his undoing. Several ex-crims are already his enemy so he may be safer in Mozambique if they will let him in. He could even need a bodyguard once he is out and around again as he will not have a gun.

7. That he never has a secret gun again or steals one as I think he is "addicted" to them like a baby is to its security blanket.

8. That he works with Van Zyl with his Projects for the disabled one day but not sure where the money would come from now unless his grandfather or father dies and he inherits some or Uncle Arnie contributes.

9. That he never drinks heavily again once he is able to nor drinks too much coffee as he used to.

10. That no blonde models ever date him again! But there will always be Pistorians who will be around him and there's always Jenna. However, she will probably be married by the time this is over. I doubt he will marry until much older if at all and doubt whether he will want children.

11. That his family are trained not to coddle him any more.

12. That he has to live in the confines of his uncle's house after prison until the five years are up so at least someone is keeping a close eye on him.

13. That he sets some goals and achieves them even in prison instead of moping around feeling sorry for himself.

14. Instead of hiding behind religion, that he gets some solace from it.

15. I read that he is Category B and after a few months, good behaviour is rewarded by being put up to Category A where he can have a Coke or beer! I don't think they would be great incentives to him but I think they can also have more visitors than the two per week only on weekends that he can have now.

My main question is: Will he comply or will he rebel? He seems to have been into sabotage for a few years now so who knows?

 

[OZe]

Oze, I think that this is a good idea if OP could get the waiver. I can just see it now:

"Come all ye sinners....come to me to be saved. God forgives everyone. I was in prison once and in the depths of despair when God spoke to me and told me he would forgive my sins and take me away from all evil. I have been cleansed from my past sins and you can be cleansed too........ "

He could start his own church and call it the Pistorian Evangelical Temple for Born Again Christians.

Aimee and Carl could use twitter to tout for new members. They would all see a new purpose in life.

Soon OP would be swanning all over the world spreading the Gospel of Pistorians and setting up temples in every country which would let him in.

Donations would be rolling in....he would soon be driving a BMW again and buying properties all over the world. He would then get the admiration, adulation, adoration and worship that a true narcissist needs to survive...they are as necessary as air to him.

:gathering: :hilarious:

[BBM]

BIB: At which point he'd shoot his girlfriend.

Great post, Estelle, thanks!

 

[OZe]

Below is a quote from the NPA. It's tragic to see that they would consider an appeal of the verdict but not the sentence. That just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.


Mncube said the NPA would use this time to consider whether the facts and the law allowed them to appeal, and suggested that the state would appeal the verdict, but not the sentence.

From http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news...y-judge-masipa-today-watch-live#ixzz3Gw78xkDO

It may just be sloppy reporting. What I think he meant was that if the NPA was satisfied there were no errors in law by Masipa, they would not appeal the CH sentence (which many legal commentators suggest was expertly reasoned). Their focus seems to be on the danger of letting the judgement stand (for all the reasons apparent to the sleuthers, here). If, after their review, they conclude they do have a right (and a duty to SA) to mount an appeal, and that appeal results in a change of conviction (to DE or DD), my understanding from previous posts is that the sentence would certainly be up for review.

Finer minds will correct me if I've got it wrong.

 

[mrjitty]

So Greenland is a more reliable source for the Appeal information than Grant would be?

Academics are frequently the top analysts and commentators on the latest legal cases.

It is after all, a key part of their professional role.

That fact that Grant is not an attorney in no way devalues his opinion. In fact he is more likely to be on top of the law than many practitioners who often jump in for media reasons.

Greenland is interesting because he is a retired judge - although his analysis is far more practical and far less detailed on the legal nitty gritty.

 

[DarKHawK]

The sentence is correct for the verdict. But if verdict changes then the then surely the sentence should?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[jay-jay]

Great post re. your hopes and predictions for OP, Estelle .. I agree with you that him telling the truth would set him .. or rather his mind .. free. But, he cannot possibly tell the truth because telling the truth would get him locked up in prison for one heck of a lot longer than he currently is, so he will have to keep the truth to himself for the rest of his life as far as he, in his own mind, is concerned.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Unsuccessful Attempts to Justify Judge Masipa’s Errors (Revised & Expanded) by Professor James Grant

http://criminallawza.net/

I had not seen this before so maybe others here haven't either.

Estelle, I had not seen this before and found it fascinating.

THANK-YOU!!

 

[G.bng]

I am sure this has been posted somewhere in these threads already but I'm seeing it for the first time and am interested in reading word for word:

South Africa: OSCAR PISTORIUS FULL JUDGMENT (PDF)

It's good to have but unfortunately it's a transcript so it has errors of mishearing and inaudibles and a couple of paragraph divisions that affect meaning. I used it to correct and compliment my own transcript especially for case names.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Question:

Can someone briefly explain (or explain again?) why it would NOT be possible that the toilet door had a crack it PRIOR to the shooting.

Is there no way that a shot could have gone through a pre-existing crack?

MANY THANKS!!

 

[Estelle]

[BBM]

BIB: At which point he'd shoot his girlfriend.

Great post, Estelle, thanks!

......if she did not give him unconditional love ie no criticism

PLUS THE 3 As - continual admiration, adulation, adoration

in return for his conditional love ie criticism, no gum chewing, no talking to any male friends, no touching him on the neck, no kissing guys on TV shows, allow him to speed, 24 hour availability when he wants her, return his SMS messages immediately, must be religious, must allow him to have other women in his life, etc.

 

[ColonelMustard]

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · Oct 21

Huh: "in the present case the aim was to shoot the intruder" - contrary to verdict

I think she really means "intent"????rather than "aim"

I think Judge Masipa must retire NOW!

Which part of the 3 sentences above were part of the Tweet? All of them?

 

[ColonelMustard]

As an aside to this, the whole reason why Judges are expected to deliver coherent verdicts;

1. with legal tests clearly set out,
2. relevant factual findings clearly articulated,
3. resulting inferences articulated
4. decision on legal issue clearly expressed

..... is precisely so that Appeal Courts can understand the analytic process of the judge.

Where the judge

a). sets out the wrong legal issues
b) fails to set out the relevant test for a matter at trial (self defence)
c) fails to set out the findings relating to the test
d) fails to make a clear holding (did self defence apply)

Then the Appeal Court can have no confidence

i) that the judge understood the legal issue
ii) the at the judge applied the correct legal tests
iii) as to what legal finding the Judge made

As Grant states, we can't simply 'fix up" the verdict by working out what she must have meant.

There is clear risk on the face of the judgement of legal errors, namely:

1. That she did not apply eventualis to the "intruder" - this is in black and white
2. That she did not apply the correct legal standard for self defence - this is missing from the judgement and the Court failed to determine relevant matters.
3. That there are inconsistent inferences that cannot be reconciled. Namely that lethal force was intentionally deployed against a person but with no intention to kill. That finding cannot be available to the court - at least not without explanation.


So that is just the three I see. I am sure Nel will have more.

So, let me get this straight.

There were THREE (3) people (JM + plus 2 assessors), each of whom were understood to have exceptional legal knowledge, understanding, and experience, etc, who took ONE (1) month to come up with an illogical, inarticulate, incomplete, nonsensical verdict , major points of which had little-to-no relevance to current SA law, the evidence, or minimal common sense?

 

[mirage1]

I am shocked to see Reeva's parents on tv saying justice has been done. They are clearly mentally and emotionally drained. I hope the state does not allow this clear miscarriage of justice and appeals this farce.

 

[Estelle]

Great post re. your hopes and predictions for OP, Estelle .. I agree with you that him telling the truth would set him .. or rather his mind .. free. But, he cannot possibly tell the truth because telling the truth would get him locked up in prison for one heck of a lot longer than he currently is, so he will have to keep the truth to himself for the rest of his life as far as he, in his own mind, is concerned.

Psychologically for OP, I hope there is an Appeal and the verdict is murder because then he will not have to keep lying all his life. There is no harm in telling the truth then. Otherwise, he has to live under this facade all the time which could damage him even more psychologically because of his own feelings about himself. Living a lie to everyone for the rest of his life would be very difficult. It would cause a lot of stress and he could start drinking heavily when at last he is allowed alcohol to dampen his feelings of low self-worth. If he is broken now, he will not be much more broken than if the verdict is murder to which he claimed he was not guilty and wasted lots of money on lawyers. It will just take more time before he is free if the sentence is extended. But he has to learn the lesson some time some where that lying does not pay.

So far his motto, "I always win" rings true when he could have got a sentence of 25 years or more. He has been very lucky so far but that luck could change. He must face up to the consequences of his actions.

http://citizen.co.za/262496/oscar-broken-beyond-fixing/

"Oscar, broken beyond fixing

Though many South Africans have, with justification, lamented what they perceive to be a slap on the wrist for disgraced Paralympian Oscar Pistorius, the reality is the convicted killer has already paid dearly for his crime. "

 

[ColonelMustard]

I CANNOT recommend highly enough taking the time to closely read the article (PLUS all the comments) at the link (below) provided by Estelle.

I had to read it VERY slowly and carefully because the legal terms trip me up, but it was 500% worth it. It cleared up a lot of things for me that I had questions about, which many people here are still asking about.

Unsuccessful Attempts to Justify Judge Masipa’s Errors (Revised & Expanded)

by Professor James Grant

http://criminallawza.net

Again, THANKS, ESTELLE!!!

 

[Estelle]

Which part of the 3 sentences above were part of the Tweet? All of them?

No only the first one.

I added those other two sentences. I don't know whether what I said is right or wrong. Nobody has commented on it.

 

[jay-jay]

Psychologically for OP, I hope there is an Appeal and the verdict is murder because then he will not have to keep lying all his life. There is no harm in telling the truth then. Otherwise, he has to live under this facade all the time which could damage him even more psychologically because of his own feelings about himself. Living a lie to everyone for the rest of his life would be very difficult. It would cause a lot of stress and he could start drinking heavily when at last he is allowed alcohol to dampen his feelings of self-worth. If he is broken now, he will not be much more broken than if the verdict is murder to which he claimed he was not guilty and wasted lots of money on lawyers. It will just take more time before he is free if the sentence is extended. But he has to learn the lesson some time some where that lying does not pay.

So far his motto, "I always win" rings true when he could have got a sentence of 25 years or more. He has been very lucky so far but that luck could change. He must face up to the consequences of his actions.

Yes, but he's not exactly going to do something .. or admit to something .. that is going to land him with a 25 year jail sentence, is he? That's why he's gone to such lengths during this whole trial, he wants/NEEDS to avoid prison! .. and he pretty much succeeded, this being such a short jail term of 10 months.

 

[Estelle]

Yes, but he's not exactly going to do something .. or admit to something .. that is going to land him with a 25 year jail sentence, is he? That's why he's gone to such lengths during this whole trial, he wants/NEEDS to avoid prison! .. and he pretty much succeeded, this being such a short jail term of 10 months.

Please read it again. What I said is that I hope he is convicted of murder after an Appeal so he does not have to keep lying and think he can get away with things. His lies have paid off all his life and unfortunately he thinks he is winning and lies pay off. He needs to learn the lesson for his own psychological health and wellbeing. Longevity is in his family. His grandfather is 98yo so there are many years left yet. He must learn the lessons of life otherwise he will be stunted.

 

[jay-jay]

Please read it again. What I said is that I hope he is convicted of murder after an Appeal so he does not have to keep lying and think he can get away with things. His lies have paid off all his life and unfortunately he thinks he is winning and lies pay off. He needs to learn the lesson for his own psychological health and wellbeing. Longevity is in his family. His grandfather is 98yo so there are many years left yet. He must learn the lessons of life otherwise he will be stunted.

Apologies, I missed that bit .. I was still had your initial post in mind. I still don't think he will ever admit the truth, even if he is convicted of murdering 'a person' .. he doesn't ever want anyone to know what really happened that night, and he probably even believes in his own version of events now, i.e. that he thought she was an intruder. People like him do actually have the capacity to start believing their own lies, I know that because I was with someone exactly like that.

 

[RosieC]

Thanks..I did find his apology..but I'm confused about his latest tweet suggesting that Nel may appeal..

You know what..I just found another tweet which may explain his latest tweet..he was probably referring to this type of appeal:

James Grant
‏@CriminalLawZA
The 1982 Seekoei case held: no state legal appeal if conviction on competent verdict. But state can appeal this too, at SCA & the Con Court.

It was actually I who tweeted to James Grant about Seekoei making Pistorius verdict a done deal. He may already have been working on it when I tweeted, as the article appeared the previous day. Here is the sequence on twitter.

Me "Nel cant appeal ....VERDICT A DONE DEAL http://www.dispatchlive.co.za/gen/oscar-verdict-a-done-deal/ … Thoughts?"

Grant: - working on it - but I doubt it...
Therese: State can petition Constitutional Court e.g. S v Basson (CCT 30/03) so by no means done deal?

Grant: Thanks (to Therese) for your very helpful research today - I think you are spot on - Basson will be basis of a state appeal against Seekoei.

This was 16 Sept. Just to be clear, the Dispatchlive link which Estelle quotes is the link which was sent to Grant, which he feels the state can deal with on the basis of S v Basson. Whether there are later developments on this, I don't know. Grant and others showed amazing diligence on it. It obviously matters.

If anyone wants to follow up S v Basson, here is the link I found:

http://www.asser.nl/upload/document...ca/Basson_ConstitCourt_Judgment_10-3-2004.pdf

Or better still link given by Therese on twitter http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZACC/2004/13.html

and link to Heads of Argument from Therese https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/19785370/applicants-submissions/33