Trial Discussion Thread #6 - 14.03.13-14, Day 9-10

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I'd be very surprised if OP doesn't take the stand. As there are no eye witnesses, only he and the deceased will ever know the truth. There are no suggestions that he didn't fire the gun, therefore it would look terrible if he chose not to answer the prosecutions questions. This would probably be taken as a snub towards Reeva's family if he kept quiet - the least they deserve are some answers from OP.
 
maybe......now this is just a guess.......maybe he wrote out a report including ALL that were in his notes ......so....therefor originals not needed....?

I actually believe that it is pretty common for police to destroy their notes after they have been incorporated into their report.
 
This reminds me of something Von testified to.

He said that when he entered the 2nd spare bedroom, he saw signs that someone had been staying in there - a toothbrush/toothpaste, other non-specific signs (he called it visibility) that someone had been using that en suite bedroom.

You are right, I was quite disappointed that that wasn't explained, I have to wonder why Roux didn't go into that more? I'm sure if it had been in Pistorius's favor, Roux would have jumped all over it.

I put it to Roux that he only puts it if he has no fear of putting it!
 
I agree.

I think OP would have everyone believe that his & Reeva's relationship was much more serious than it actually was. I mean - they'd only been dating for a few months. How serious could it have possibly been? I wonder if he perceived the relationship as more serious than Reeva did and this was a point of conflict between them? If not, I think his claims about the seriousness of their relationship are designed for persuasion: he'd never purposely kill someone he was deeply in love with.

Then there's the matter of his sister requesting to take one of the watches. I'm assuming she didn't just come up with this request on her own - OP must have asked her to go fetch it.

He had just killed the woman he claimed was "the love of his life". WTH was so important about a watch, of all things, at such a horrendous time???

All speculation here but maybe he needed the watch for collateral to retain an attorney since he was in jail and couldnt get access to funds.

Also, the fact that they were dating only a short time makes it even more unlikely that this would be a crime of passion or a premeditated murder.
 
V seems to be having trouble reading from his own statement....talking about cartrdiges in bathroom now.

V admits that he was wrong as to where the cartridges were in his statement. Not two by basin. One near bath, one near basin.

R: Remember I said your testimony is intended to take the place of Botha's?...who went upstairs according to your para 10?

V: long pause...I went.

R: Where's Botha?

V: I'm convinced he was with me

Now on to a debate about of use of 'we' and 'I'. Roux's suggesting that use of 'I' means V was alone and Botha was elsewhere.

R: We have a copy of Botha's statement. I don't know if it's the truth. It was given us by the state.

R points out Botha said when he arrived, OP was in the garage. So that means V went upstairs alone. Because V said when he went upstairs, OP was left in kitchen...

Roux has caught him out!

maybe......now this is just a guess.......maybe he wrote out a report including ALL that were in his notes ......so....therefor originals not needed....?

The above are examples of discrepancies in Von's official statement(s).

I believe that if he had taken thorough notes (or any notes at all), there wouldn't be discrepancies regarding the locations of the bullet cartridges or discrepancies about when Botha arrived.

The whole point of notes is so that one doesn't have to rely solely on memory - especially if one has been on duty for 24 hours and is exhausted.
 
I found this when looking for the article which said she stayed with OP on the previous two nights. I have not seen this before and I don't think it has been posted here.

"Police will disclose what they have found on Pistorius’s iPhone and hundreds of texts from Reeva’s device.
A police source said: “They had only been together for three months and despite the view most people get from photographs, there had been rows and arguments.”


http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/463838/Reeva-Steenkamp-hap-planned-go-home-night-she-was-shot
 
I actually believe that it is pretty common for police to destroy their notes after they have been incorporated into their report.

He could be claiming that he destroyed his notes because he didn't take notes. He said he didn't keep a journal of his notes. What, then, did he record his notes in/on?

I'm skeptical that he took notes. If he did, his note-taking skills are as crappy as his skills of observation, based on his testimony and his official statement(s), IMO.

I'm waiting to be impressed with this investigation and with the State's forensic witnesses and investigators. So far, I find myself underwhelmed at times, and, at other times, appalled.
 
Listening to some of the proceedings today. Are you telling me that OP noticed a "missing watch" within minutes/hours of this murder? And they are bringing this up in court? It shows his state of mind but what other value is there in bringing this up?

Was the photo of Van Rensburg taken after forensics had been there? Do you have a link to a clear photo of this? (the only one I have seen is so unclear, I'd like to see a clearer one, thanks, if you have a link to one). Van Rensburg was at the house Feb 14, 15, 16 and 17th, it would have helped a lot if the camera imprinted date/time on each photo.

I wish there was a simple transcript of the exact words of those in court, rather than tweets which don't give a full, unadulterated, straightforward transcript.

Agree with you. I can't make head nor tail of the picture evidence, and the speech of Roux is like Double Dutch. His sentences are incoherent and make no sense. Even the witnesses are baffled by his questions. It is torture and embarrassing to watch. I am keeping an open mind about OP, but his lawyer is going to lose this case for him. If it were me I'd sack him. Everyone deserves a fair trial guilty or not.
 
I found this when looking for the article which said she stayed with OP on the previous two nights. I have not seen this before and I don't think it has been posted here.

"Police will disclose what they have found on Pistorius’s iPhone and hundreds of texts from Reeva’s device.
A police source said: “They had only been together for three months and despite the view most people get from photographs, there had been rows and arguments.”


http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/463838/Reeva-Steenkamp-hap-planned-go-home-night-she-was-shot


My dear mega-sleuths:

Anyone else find the forensic cricket bat standing witness to be less than what was most likely expected?

AS a horror writer, ( I've written "The Ms. America Killer", The Elevator Killer, The Wedding Day Killer, The Lady of the Lake, Rrrise , Demon Man, Medusa Coelenterate, and "MIghty Fighting") I think this makes for a good story...

In "Mighty Fighting," I tell the tale of the first three-armed world champion, Gar Dornogavi. Not horror, but I could see this being good and scary... the man with the stumps...


Hmm....
 
To be honest if true i find it very very odd that a woman in a fairly new relationship who is also a model would have spent the whole day in temperatures that reached 34 degrees, did some yoga and then went to bed in those same clothes.

I believe she arrived at 6:00 PM, so not the whole day. I agree though that in the heat and doing yoga, not likely to have gone to bed in the same clothes. I don't think they ever went to bed.
 
All speculation here but maybe he needed the watch for collateral to retain an attorney since he was in jail and couldnt get access to funds.

Good point. It would particularly make sense that he could have been advised of this at the scene by Carice Stander (I hope I'm right in thinking that she's an attorney).
 
All speculation here but maybe he needed the watch for collateral to retain an attorney since he was in jail and couldnt get access to funds.

Also, the fact that they were dating only a short time makes it even more unlikely that this would be a crime of passion or a premeditated murder.
BBM - Why? If OP was possessive and controlling, then I fail to see how he could put that on hold for three months. Certainly sounds short-tempered, jealous and controlling judging from what Reeva's friend, Maddie Sims said last year. If a man has those character traits, then he has them whether it's three months into a relationship, or five years into it. Seems OP had all kinds of obsessive standards for Reeva to live up to.
"If a man's gaze lingered too long on blonde beauty Reeva Steenkamp, boyfriend Oscar Pistorius would grow jealous. While dining out recently in their native South Africa with Steenkamp's girlfriends, "a man was staring at her," says pal Maddie Sims. "Oscar stared him down with a very angry look on his face." Often during the couple's four-month courtship, Sims had seen Pistorius grow agitated if free-spirited Steenkamp was late to meet him; if she wore her hair in a ponytail or was dressed too casually; if she asked a waiter too many questions. "Many things that made Oscar a great athlete made him difficult to live with," she says. "He was very focused, very intense, very assertive." But, she adds, "he was loving 95 percent of the time, so that's what we thought the majority of their relationship was."

I wonder if she's on the witness list?

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20678557,00.html
 
At this stage of the State's case, I think the State is looking weak with regards to the charge of premeditated murder. Here's what we have so far:

1. Dr. Saayman introduced questionable evidence about Reeva's last meal and about digestion. I've followed enough cases & watched enough trials to know that this is not scientific evidence.

2. Dr. Saayman didn't provide convincing testimony regarding the order of gunshots.

3. Col Vermeulen is not a certified tool mark examiner, yet he was assigned to analyze the toilet door for tool marks. He admitted that he noticed another mark on the door (the morning of his testimony) that he hadn't noticed before filing his final report.

4. Col Vermeulen testified that the toilet door had police boot prints on it that were then later removed (evidence of crime scene contamination/evidence contamination/evidence tampering to remove traces of contamination).

5. Col Vermeulen testified that pieces of the broken toilet door panels were not collected or were lost.

6. The firearms/ballistics expert at the crime scene handled the gun without wearing gloves.

7. Von said "there is no toilet room door" when, in fact, there IS a toilet room door. This tells me that not only did he not observe the toilet room door, he didn't observe whether or not this toilet room door was open or closed.

8. Von gave testimony that conflicted with his official statement(s) regarding the locations of the bullet cartridges.

9. Personal property went missing from the crime scene (watches).

10. The most important piece of evidence (the toilet room door) wasn't properly wrapped and wasn't properly stored in a secure, controlled-access evidence room.

These are the points that stand out to me and that I can remember at the moment.

There is more evidence to come. If OP is guilty, let's hope this upcoming evidence is more compelling than what has been presented thus far.
 
Reeva had stayed at OP's the previous two nights and Baba said he knew her.

Yes and according to Roux at the BH she had slept on the left side of the bed. Strange coincidence they only changed sides on the night she was killed. Also the Magistrate Nair expressed his scepticism regarding this.
 
The whole home was a crime scene that had to be secured therefore she, her brother,and the Standers had no business roaming about in his home comforting him, except for his attorney they were are trespassers who could contaminate the crime scene.The police failed in getting their fundamental principles of crime scene investigation right, undoubtedly they were overawed by his celebrity status.They now have to bear this ignominy in court with the whole world watching as Roux falsely brands them as low life criminals. In such a horrific atmosphere prevailing in his home the person who took the first watch can only be the prime suspect for the other two missing watches, and that person happens to be his beloved sister. Two senior Police Commanders careers ended for mishandling evidence in this case, it was beyond comprehension that any junior police official would be so brazen as to steal expensive valuables from the home of the superstar of the country and get away with it.

I thought Van Rensburg stated in his testimony today, that only one watch was unaccounted for. OP's sister was accompanied by a police officer when she asked to go up stairs to get some clothes for her brother. According to VR this was when the sister took one watch for her brother. It was after this that VR noticed that there was a green watch missing from box. There had been 8 watches in the box. VR said that all officials on the scene were searched, but the watch was not found.
 
Yes and according to Roux at the BH she had slept on the left side of the bed. Strange coincidence they only changed sides on the night she was killed. Also the Magistrate Nair expressed his scepticism regarding this.
Changed sides so his 'explanation' of why he didn't see her when he walked past the bed to the bathroom would be more readily accepted. There should be a 'cynical' smiley!
 
All speculation here but maybe he needed the watch for collateral to retain an attorney since he was in jail and couldnt get access to funds.

That seems very thin to me. His family would have organised legal representation for him.

Also, the fact that they were dating only a short time makes it even more unlikely that this would be a crime of passion or a premeditated murder.

I don't follow that at all. All that's needed is a loss of temper, and there could be 101 scenarios that might trigger it off. Three months is plenty for feelings to run high for whatever reason.
 
BBM - Why? If OP was possessive and controlling, then I fail to see how he could put that on hold for three months. Certainly sounds short-tempered, jealous and controlling judging from what Reeva's friend, Maddie Sims said last year. If a man has those character traits, then he has them whether it's three months into a relationship, or five years into it. Seems OP had all kinds of obsessive standards for Reeva to live up to.


http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20678557,00.html
IME, very often these types of relationships are extremely intense too - the controlling/possessive/abusive party works to secure the relationship as quickly as possible. Quite deliberately.

JMO
 
Can somebody please confirm, what defines premeditated in a court of law?

i.e. if OP flew into a jealous rage and during a heated 10 minute period shot RS, does that still fit the criteria for premeditated, even though it wasn't a planned murder as such?
 
I haven't found a trial transcript but from part of OP's bail affidavit, I find the bolded bits interesting:

1: He returned to the bedroom to put on his legs, so it makes a little more sense he screamed for help from the balcony there instead of the bathroom window.

2: He went downstairs and left the door open for Standar and Netcare, despite his fear of burglars

3: He says he carried Reeva downstairs because he 'was told' to get her to hospital, but doesn't say by who - Standar or Netcare. Neither were there at the time, but these are the only two OP mentions calling.

4: He says he believes Reeva got out of bed when he was bringing in the fans from the balcony - so he is not saying he didn't notice she'd left the bed when he woke; he is effectively saying she 'snuck' out when he was outside, on the balcony. That's more credible, imo.

5: The word 'mortified' in the last para is entirely inappropriate, I think.

Part of BAIL AFFIDAVIT

On the 13th of February 2013 Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends. Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home. I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home. By about 22h00 on 13 February 2013 we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television. My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way. She had given me a present for Valentine's Day but asked me only to open it the next day.

After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep. I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.

During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.

I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps. I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.

I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.

I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.

It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.

I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding. When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.

I put on my prosthetic legs,
ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.

I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door. I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.

I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva. With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out on the balcony to bring the fan in. I cannot bear to think of the suffering I have caused her and her family, knowing how much she was loved. I also know that the events of that tragic night were as I have described them and that in due course I have no doubt the police and expert investigators will bear this out.



bolded AND underlined by me:

Really?

OP has had his legs partially removed since the age of .....11months........he has by far overcome this modification of his body.......far far overcome it.

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