Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[DebinGA]

No offence Toris, but is that not splitting hairs? To say in one sentence that he whispered and in another sentence that he spoke softly, in my mind is not lying.
If he said he had spoke in a normal voice or a raised voice then said he had whispered, that to me would be a lie.
As for the gun charges I believe he is guilty and has make a complete fool of himself by denying it.

Whispering is done very close up. OP knew to change that pronto.

 

[BritsKate]

He is unable to do many things that an able bodied person can do when he does not have on his prosthetics. He is disabled made more able by gadgets but he still has a disability. Heck he even competed in the Special Olympics after the Olympics.



He was hyper vigilant about his own safety, that has been established (IMO) by past behavior, part of his defense is that his hyper vigilance comes from his feeling of vulnerability due to his disability.

Hypervigilant, how? By not fixing a broken window? Not ensuring ladders were locked away? Not pushing a panic button, ever? Sleeping with doors wide open? By locking windows in unoccupied rooms? The only vigilance Oscar has shown is his willingness to tote a gun everywhere.

Now onto that disability thing - a person whose disability leaves them at a physical disadvantage isn't going to go rushing into a situation where such an impairment could put them at even more a disadvantage. It flies in the face of vulnerability. That's my opinion formed from living with and loving someone far less mobile than Oscar.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[anagrammy]

For Oscar.... he is forever impaled on that split second when he pulled the trigger the first time ....everything he did before and after is predicated on that nanosecond of time, the decision, the act and the consequences.. in that order.

He has had to move with time forward from that point but at the same time, he has to work backwards to get to that point of the trigger pulling moment that avoids the consequences that come after it.

It requires a split mind that can hold two unequivocal and irreconcilable memories at the same time and call one up , then the other without stumbling.. because the human intellect doesn't do that without its own set of inevitable consequences.. which is what we are seeing on the stand when he speaks..

he is impaled on the unequivocal and the irreconcilable at the one and the same time.

Very astute observation. I especially noticed this when he was asked if he heard Reeva scream. Looooong pause while in his mind he heard those screams and reacted to his true memory with emotion. Else, why would no memory of screams cause him to hang up and be speechless for such a long period?

 

[shane13]

“I think he should start preparing for a lengthy incarceration” said the prosecutor. They agree that it is possible that Pistorius may have strayed from what had been prepared in the months of careful planning with his legal team.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscars-31-seconds-silence/

 

[DebinGA]

“I think he should start preparing for a lengthy incarceration” said the prosecutor. They agree that it is possible that Pistorius may have strayed from what had been prepared in the months of careful planning with his legal team.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscars-31-seconds-silence/

more from that article:

Referring to a photo of the scene as a police photographer claimed to have found it, Nel said: “I’m keeping a list [see graphic].
“A policeman must have, let’s start, opened the curtains wider, moved the fans, switched the light on and ensured that the denim is on top of the duvet because that is important, if the police put it next to the duvet, that is not important.”
“Correct, My Lady,” responded Pistorius.
“Why would the police do that?” asked Nel. “I don’t know,” he said.
Pressed by Nel about why the police would move these items when they had no idea what Pistorius’ version was, he again broke down.
“Why would this question make you emotional Mr Pistorius?” asked Nel.
“This is the night I lost the person I cared about, I don’t know how people don’t understand that.”
...........................................................................................................

 

[Giles]

At this point in the trial I tend to believe Oscar’s version of events – at least in regard to intentionally shooting Reeva. I know there are more days of cross examination to come and this may shed more light on things…

We know there were two sets of noise (gun shots/cricket bat – bangs or thuds) and we know that there were 4 gun shots and later 3 or 4 cricket bat thuds, so, to me it seems logical that the first set of sounds (just after 3am) were the gun shots and the second set of sounds were the cricket bat. This fits with Oscar’s version – but it does not fit with the Prosecution’s version.

The Prosecution still have not accounted for what caused the first set of sounds. What do they believe caused the first set of sounds? There are some good suggestions in this thread, but nothing that fully makes sense.

It also leaves a question of why nobody heard (what would have been) a third set of sounds when the door was hit with a cricket bat, at a time when neighbors were alerted to a situation and were listening out. Nobody has reported this and yet, if the Prosecution’s case is to be believed, we know it must have happened and someone would likely have heard it. The Prosecution have called all their witnesses, so we have to accept this is unlikely to have occurred.

 

[shane13]

Surprising:
"Globally, the United States gave the trial the most publicity, followed by Australia, the United Kingdom and then South Africa."

Article also show Uncle Arnold crying, which I have not seen.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-apology-steals-the-show-ddi-1.1675005

 

[asanque]

At this point in the trial I tend to believe Oscar’s version of events – at least in regard to intentionally shooting Reeva. I know there are more days of cross examination to come and this may shed more light on things…

We know there were two sets of noise (gun shots/cricket bat – bangs or thuds) and we know that there were 4 gun shots and later 3 or 4 cricket bat thuds, so, to me it seems logical that the first set of sounds (just after 3am) were the gun shots and the second set of sounds were the cricket bat. This fits with Oscar’s version – but it does not fit with the Prosecution’s version.

The Prosecution still have not accounted for what caused the first set of sounds. What do they believe caused the first set of sounds? There are some good suggestions in this thread, but nothing that fully makes sense.

It also leaves a question of why nobody heard (what would have been) a third set of sounds when the door was hit with a cricket bat, at a time when neighbors were alerted to a situation and were listening out. Nobody has reported this and yet, if the Prosecution’s case is to be believed, we know it must have happened and someone would likely have heard it. The Prosecution have called all their witnesses, so we have to accept this is unlikely to have occurred.

Only 2 of the 5 witnesses heard the initial set of banging.

This could easily have been doors being slammed shut.

However, all 5 of the witnesses heard a woman screaming for help (and in a few cases both a man and woman screaming) followed by another set of bangs (then silence).

So you have 5 separate independent accounts vs one account by a liar with a vested interest in the outcome.

How do you account for the screams?

Edit: I would also think that the sound of a cricket bat hitting the door is nowhere near as loud as a gunshot

 

[minor4th]

Next witness--Estelle? Lives in Silverwoods. Wakes up at 2am. Heard sounds. People talking in loud voices. [sounded like] A fight. Lasted about an hour. Couldn't hear what people were saying. Couldn't understand the language. She was irritated, keeping her awake. Put a pillow on her head. Looked out at some point, couldn't see anything. About 3am she heard 4 gunshots. sounded like gunshots. Bang. Bang. After the four sounds, total silence. Husband woke up. Looked out window. Couldn't see anything. Went back to bed. Then heard a commotion. Husband called security. Next heard somebody was crying out loud. Husband said it was Oscar. Seemed like a woman's voice to her.

Later finds out from security that Oscar shot his friend.


I need a translator for the translator.

Now it sounds like she only heard one voice in the fight?

She did hear only one voice

 

[Giles]

asanque.

Of the 2 witnesses who heard the initial banging, they both seemed very reliable and Annette Stipp was awake prior to the noise. It could be that it was the banging that woke the other witnesses up.

The Defence will call several witnesses who claim they heard only the screams of a man. One of these witnesses (forgive me, I forget his name presently) will claim that his wife thought she heard a woman screaming but that he knew Oscar and he assured her that it was Oscar screaming. So, this demonstrates that Oscar was screaming and that his screams sounded like those of a woman.

 

[Viper]

“I think he should start preparing for a lengthy incarceration” said the prosecutor. They agree that it is possible that Pistorius may have strayed from what had been prepared in the months of careful planning with his legal team.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscars-31-seconds-silence/

From your link:

“A policeman must have, let’s start, opened the curtains wider, moved the fans, switched the light on and ensured that the denim is on top of the duvet because that is important, if the police put it next to the duvet, that is not important.”

“Correct, My Lady,” responded Pistorius.

“Why would the police do that?” asked Nel. “I don’t know,” he said.

Pressed by Nel about why the police would move these items when they had no idea what Pistorius’ version was, he again broke down.

“Why would this question make you emotional Mr Pistorius?” asked Nel.

“This is the night I lost the person I cared about, I don’t know how people don’t understand that.”

And previous to that:

Late on the second day of what has been a sustained and brutal cross-examination, Nel said: “Are you sure, Mr Pistorius, that Reeva didn’t scream after you fired the first shot?”

Oscar slumped back in his chair and kept quiet for 31 seconds. Court GD in Pretoria was *utterly silent.

On the audio recording, all that can be heard is Nel again asking “Are you sure?” after five seconds of silence had passed.

 

[asanque]

asanque.

Of the 2 witnesses who heard the initial banging, they both seemed very reliable and Annette Stipp was awake prior to the noise. It could be that it was the banging that woke the other witnesses up.

The Defence will call several witnesses who claim they heard only the screams of a man. One of these witnesses (forgive me, I forget his name presently) will claim that his wife thought she heard a woman screaming but that he knew Oscar and he assured her that it was Oscar screaming. So, this demonstrates that Oscar was screaming and that his screams sounded like those of a woman.

Barber and Johnson both testified that it was screams that awoke them.

I guess we have only heard one side of the case so far.

Where are you getting the info about what the Defence witnesses will testify to?

Thanks

 

[Giles]

Barber and Johnson both testified that it was screams that awoke them.

I guess we have only heard one side of the case so far.

Where are you getting the info about what the Defence witnesses will testify to?

Thanks

Yes, I think it will get really interesting when the Defence starts calling witnesses.

I heard Roux mention it to one of the witnesses early on in the trial.

 

[asanque]

Yes, I think it will get really interesting when the Defence starts calling witnesses.

I heard Roux mention it to one of the witnesses early on in the trial.

Thanks

Is it your view also that the police tampered with the crime scene?

 

[Viper]

asanque.

Of the 2 witnesses who heard the initial banging, they both seemed very reliable and Annette Stipp was awake prior to the noise. It could be that it was the banging that woke the other witnesses up.

The Defence will call several witnesses who claim they heard only the screams of a man. One of these witnesses (forgive me, I forget his name presently) will claim that his wife thought she heard a woman screaming but that he knew Oscar and he assured her that it was Oscar screaming. So, this demonstrates that Oscar was screaming and that his screams sounded like those of a woman.

It is impolite to delete or even substantially modify the post that you are replying to without good reason, and that reason should be noted in your reply.

What you are saying about new witnesses hearing OP scream and scream like a girl is nothing new or earth shattering. It is just other people that heard the end of this nightmare but missed the beginning and the middle. Thankfully we have 5 other witnesses that heard the whole event.

 

[minor4th]

Steve, Minor, Rumpole

Managed to catch the pre case trial documentary outlining both sides. Oscar's gun firing one shot is horrifically loud, never mind 4. Louder than a plane taking off?? :O

Deafening, indeed.

 

[Freya1977]

He fired his gun in error because he heard the sound of wood moving !!!...........an imaginary made up sound that couldn't possibly have happened because we all know, as a fact (according to Oscar lol) that the door was locked the whole time and he had to smash it down.

Totally unbelievable IMO.

I think the "wood moving" would be explained by him as Reeva maybe stepping back and knocking the magazine rack which scraped along the tile.

 

[Lyra500]

bbm-The question is when did he first mark out the distance? Did he plan on how long it would take him? He hasn't been allowed back in the house since he was first arrested, so unless that's what he was doing during that 19 minutes before he called Stander and waited until RS stopped bleeding out so he could take her downstairs with less mess to clean up.

Plus that's totally ignoring half his testimony of having run to do this and run to do that.

BIB - i don't think that is correct. OP was allowed back into his house when all of his bail conditions were overturned in March last year.

. The judge also decided that Pistorius no longer had to be regularly supervised by a probation official. A ruling that he was not allowed to consume alcohol and could be tested at any time for alcohol and "prohibited substances" was lifted. Pistorius was also allowed to return to the home where he shot and killed Steenkamp.

You can read the article here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/28/oscar-pistorius-athletics-bail-conditions

 

[Viper]

Deafening, indeed.

Yes. I know. I don't believe that, but Mr. Nel wanted OP to say that.

Quote:
"This piece of evidence is key. If Pistorius’ ears were ringing and he  couldn’t even have heard himself scream after the shots, as he had testified, then he can’t tell the court that three other witnesses didn’t hear her scream during the shots."

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscars-31-seconds-silence/

 

[Giles]

Thanks

Is it your view also that the police tampered with the crime scene?

Gosh, I don't know. It seems unlikely, but they certainly seemed fairly inept. I'm sure the Defence are going to tear into them dreadfully. I can't understand why the police would start randomly moving things around when they arrived on the scene.

Although, it was pointed out to me that if Oscar mentioned he thought there was an intruder, the police might have automatically checked the upstairs to see if there was someone hiding there. This might explain moving the fans to get to the balcony, checking behind the curtains, on the balcony, even under the duvet... Who knows? I certainly don't.

I do think there are lot's of holes in the Prosecutions case however. When the gun shots were fired, not having the prosthetics on whilst breaking down the door etc.