Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

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At this point in the trial I tend to believe Oscar’s version of events – at least in regard to intentionally shooting Reeva. I know there are more days of cross examination to come and this may shed more light on things…

We know there were two sets of noise (gun shots/cricket bat – bangs or thuds) and we know that there were 4 gun shots and later 3 or 4 cricket bat thuds, so, to me it seems logical that the first set of sounds (just after 3am) were the gun shots and the second set of sounds were the cricket bat. This fits with Oscar’s version – but it does not fit with the Prosecution’s version.

The Prosecution still have not accounted for what caused the first set of sounds. What do they believe caused the first set of sounds? There are some good suggestions in this thread, but nothing that fully makes sense.

It also leaves a question of why nobody heard (what would have been) a third set of sounds when the door was hit with a cricket bat, at a time when neighbors were alerted to a situation and were listening out. Nobody has reported this and yet, if the Prosecution’s case is to be believed, we know it must have happened and someone would likely have heard it. The Prosecution have called all their witnesses, so we have to accept this is unlikely to have occurred.

I think it's just as likely that the earlier bangs were made by OP in rage or frustration, banging on the door with the bat. This could have broken the panel enough to enable the pieces to be prised out after the shooting. I'm not sure if the sound would carry as far as gunshots though.

I also wonder if it can be entirely ruled out that he didn't fire off some shots earlier, say out of the window or off the balcony. We have seen that he has little regard for the safety of others, and is reckless enough to do something like that. He may have done this to threaten or scare Reeva. Is it possible that he used the air rifle at that point?
 
Well, I am not an expert in law or legal proceedings, but the Prosecution declined to call Detective Hilton Botha, because they thought it could be damning to their case. Is it possible for the Defence to call him as a witness?

The further searching could be standard proceedure... It's just a thought!

BIB Your characterization of Warrant Officer Botha is false. He was the second investigator to arrive at the crime scene and he was removed from the case 5 days after the murder because he was being investigated for discharging his gun at fleeing armed suspects.

BTW. IIRC WO Botha wanted to leave SA for a better life, I think I remember him doing just that, but I cannot remember which country he emigrated to. But I'm sure that he would fly in to testify if either the DT or the PT asked him to. But what would you expect him to say? Perhaps, "I moved the fan to the front of the door, I closed the door a bit so that the fan would block anyone from being able to run out through the door, I opened the curtains wide, I turned on the bedroom lights, yes I did those things because I wanted to make Osca' look guilty."

OP is relying on so many twists to make his story work, hanging hopes on WO Botha is truly pathetic at this point.
 
BIB Your characterization of Warrant Officer Botha is false. He was the second investigator to arrive at the crime scene and he was removed from the case 5 days after the murder because he was being investigated for discharging his gun at fleeing armed suspects.

BTW. IIRC WO Botha wanted to leave SA for a better life, I think I remember him doing just that, but I cannot remember which country he emigrated to. But I'm sure that he would fly in to testify if either the DT or the PT asked him to. But what would you expect him to say? Perhaps, "I moved the fan to the front of the door, I closed the door a bit so that the fan would block anyone from being able to run out through the door, I opened the curtains wide, I turned on the bedroom lights, yes I did those things because I wanted to make Osca' look guilty."

OP is relying on so many twists to make his story work, hanging hopes on WO Botha is truly pathetic at this point.

Botha did not leave SA.
He took a private security job for much more money.
 
I think it's just as likely that the earlier bangs were made by OP in rage or frustration, banging on the door with the bat. This could have broken the panel enough to enable the pieces to be prised out after the shooting. I'm not sure if the sound would carry as far as gunshots though.

I also wonder if it can be entirely ruled out that he didn't fire off some shots earlier, say out of the window or off the balcony. We have seen that he has little regard for the safety of others, and is reckless enough to do something like that. He may have done this to threaten or scare Reeva. Is it possible that he used the air rifle at that point?

If the earlier bangs were made by OP, there is still the outstanding issue of (what must have been) a third set of bangs, because we know he hit the door with a cricket bat after firing the shots. Nobody has testified to this and the Prosecution has finished presenting their case now.

The Prosecution have also stipulated that only 4 shots were fired on the night in question. I thought the same as you, that he might have fired out of the window earlier, but again, this is not the Prosecution's case.
 
I think the "wood moving" would be explained by him as Reeva maybe stepping back and knocking the magazine rack which scraped along the tile.
I think he 'explained' the wood sound as the door moving within the door frame (his door was apparently loose) and that the sound made him think someone was about to come out and attack him.
 
Or maybe it was the moment when he was sick and fed up being repeatedly asked questions he'd already answered.

I know, isn't life tough on people when they fire 4 bullets at someone through a door, i mean what is the world coming to where it is felt necessary to test the story of a proven liar, why don't they just let poor Oscar free to carry on as if nothing ever happened?.
 
Or maybe it was the moment when he was sick and fed up being repeatedly asked questions he'd already answered.

By the way, am i dreaming or did a "verified attorney" thank this post^?, unbelievable, the mind boggles.
 
I can't link from this iPad (rather I dont know how to) ..but....according to the guardian site, there will be court tomorrow. Yay
 
At this point in the trial I tend to believe Oscar’s version of events – at least in regard to intentionally shooting Reeva. I know there are more days of cross examination to come and this may shed more light on things…

We know there were two sets of noise (gun shots/cricket bat – bangs or thuds) and we know that there were 4 gun shots and later 3 or 4 cricket bat thuds, so, to me it seems logical that the first set of sounds (just after 3am) were the gun shots and the second set of sounds were the cricket bat. This fits with Oscar’s version – but it does not fit with the Prosecution’s version.

The Prosecution still have not accounted for what caused the first set of sounds. What do they believe caused the first set of sounds? There are some good suggestions in this thread, but nothing that fully makes sense.

It also leaves a question of why nobody heard (what would have been) a third set of sounds when the door was hit with a cricket bat, at a time when neighbors were alerted to a situation and were listening out. Nobody has reported this and yet, if the Prosecution’s case is to be believed, we know it must have happened and someone would likely have heard it. The Prosecution have called all their witnesses, so we have to accept this is unlikely to have occurred.
The first set of bangs was right at, or shortly after, 3am. So, going with your theory that the first set of bangs were gunshots it means there are approximately 15 minutes that lapse before he broke the door down and 20 before he called anyone for help.

The State did suggest, albeit subtly, that the initial bangs may have been someone kicking the door to instill fear. My contention is that there were only two sets of bangs. The first at 3am were Oscar hitting and/or kicking the toilet door; the second set were the gunshots (Oscar states this was about 3:12; witnesses about 3:15), and the panel of the door removed by prying/wedging or otherwise removing it from the frame - beating of cricket bat not necessarily required.

If we assume that Oscar's 3:12 time is accurate we have to exclude the testimony from witnesses that place the bangs and screams beginning at 3am altogether. All 5 witnesses heard the second set of bangs so it would seem more likely these are the shots but that's jmo.

ETA: Feel free to correct my times, guys. 3:12 is cemented for me but that's the only one I've got memorized. ;)
 
Lead story in the SA Sunday Times today (title: Oscar IS a liar)

In some of the most sensational exchanges in South African legal history, murder accused Oscar Pistorius was repeatedly accused of lying during cross examination by pit bull prosecutor Gerrie Nel this week.

Now the Sunday Times can reveal the lies Pistorius told this newspaper just weeks before that fatal Valentine ’s Day last year.

The athlete was so obsessed with maintaining his squeaky clean public image and lucrative sponsorship deals that he repeatedly lied to try to cover up an assault during December 2012, for which he had to receive medical attention.[modsnip]http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/04/13/oscar-was-worried-about-reputation-after-altercations-reeva

Bumping jassy writer's earlier post for those who missed it. I think OP's "hurdle" was his fear that his prior bad acts were about to be revealed and sponsors would drop him.
 
If the earlier bangs were made by OP, there is still the outstanding issue of (what must have been) a third set of bangs, because we know he hit the door with a cricket bat after firing the shots. Nobody has testified to this and the Prosecution has finished presenting their case now.

The Prosecution have also stipulated that only 4 shots were fired on the night in question. I thought the same as you, that he might have fired out of the window earlier, but again, this is not the Prosecution's case.

How do we know that he hit the door with the cricket bat after firing 4 shots?
 
Quotes from an interview with defense lawyer Ulrich Roux, published in the Sunday Times this morning:

How did Oscar fare under cross examination?

He has not fared well. He has come across as being an evasive witness and not giving straightforward answers to very direct questions. Most detrimental, however, is the fact that his version has changed on numerous occasions when tested by Gerrie Nel. this makes it near impossible for the court to accept his version. He has been very selective as to what he remembers and what he does not. This does not bode well for his credibility as a witness and the court will make a negative inference as to his recollection of exactly what happened on that evening. He has also become agitated with Nel, losing his temper somewhat and falling into the traps Nel has set for him. The fact he is blaming his legal representatives, the South African police, as well as his friends for lying all ocmes across in a negative light and indicates he is not prepared to take responsibility for any of his actions.

What did you make of Gerrie Nel's aggressive questioning?

Nel's style is to rattle witnesses, unsettle them emotionally, and in so doing get them to make mistakes. When Pistorius has been emotional and upset, his chain of thoughts and judgmenthas definitely become clouded and that is when Nel has pounced on him. The main function of cross-examination, however, is to test whether a witness's version is the truth and whether it is reasonably and possibly true. Nel must be careful his aggression does not deter from this fact and take away the effect that the contradictions actually have. He has managed to force Pistorius into making numerous concessions, which will be very difficult to recover from. He must continue to focus on these concessions and contradictions for the remainder of Pistorius's cross-examination.

What are the key concessions Pistorius has made?

Pistorius testified he has been a victim of crime his entire life and named a number of occasions, such as the apparent gunshot fired at him on the highway and the apparent assault on him in a public place, yet he has never laid any charges at a police station. He conceded this. He initially testified he could not remember firing the four shots, but later conceded the fact that he clearly remembers he did not fire a double tap. This is a big contradiction and places much doubt over the accuracy of his recollection of how events unfolded on that evening. Further concessions were regarding the apparent contamination of the crime scene and how unlikely it is that the police would indeed move items around without knowing what Pistorius's version is, the length of the fan's power cord, the fact that he did not repair the broken windo in his house immediately, that there was no ladder outside his house, the alarm was activated, and so on. He conceded to the ammunition charge as well as to the fact that it was negligent of both him and Darren Fresco to handle the firearm in the way that they did at Tasha's. The three minor charges are posing a big problem for Pistorius because of the character evidence that was introduced when evidence was heard on the charges. I cannot see him escaping a conviction on any of these charges. His testimony on the ammunition and Tasha's charges have been tantamount to a confession, in my opinion. Just flatly denying that he fired a shot out of hte car's sunroof, after two witnesses have testified that he did, leaves much to be desired.

Thanks for quoting that. I wanted to read the article but its a subscription site.
Any other in depth Sunday articles from SA would be greatly appreciated!
 
I know, isn't life tough on people when they fire 4 bullets at someone through a door, i mean what is the world coming to where it is felt necessary to test the story of a proven liar, why don't they just let poor Oscar free to carry on as if nothing ever happened?.

James:
Did you ever reply to my query some pages back about your 10:10 mark on a video where OP changes the order of batshots and gunshots in his reply in a trial video.
I think you wrote Monday 1st session. But that wasn''t it. (I tried.)

Can you give the video's link please?
TIA
 
How do we know that he hit the door with the cricket bat after firing 4 shots?

It was testified by an expert witness. As far as I know, both sides agree that the shots were fired before the door was broken down.
 
If the earlier bangs were made by OP, there is still the outstanding issue of (what must have been) a third set of bangs, because we know he hit the door with a cricket bat after firing the shots. Nobody has testified to this and the Prosecution has finished presenting their case now.

No, there doesn't need to have been a third set of bangs. Not if the door was already damaged enough to enable the panels to be prised out. OP might even have punched it out, he's got form for that.

The Prosecution have also stipulated that only 4 shots were fired on the night in question. I thought the same as you, that he might have fired out of the window earlier, but again, this is not the Prosecution's case.

Have they actually stated that? I must have missed it. Certainly photographs of the airgun have been entered into evidence, so questions may still be asked about that.
 
It was testified by an expert witness. As far as I know, both sides agree that the shots were fired before the door was broken down.

I do not think they did

We don't.
Col Vermeulen's testimony in full included the possibility of a bat strike before gunshots.

I also thought that the expert testimony was that there were no more than two or possibly three strikes against the door with the bat and that the door panel was prised out, not beaten out.

It is therefore quite possible that the five witnesses heard Reeva screaming in fear for her life, then gunshots and then did not necessarily hear the cricket bat striking the door at all since it would have been far less likely to carry than the gunshots.
 
Does anyone know which days the court will be sitting/not sitting over the Easter hols please.
 
Barry Roux asked Vermeulen to confirm that the toilet door of Pistorius’s home was first shot into before Pistorius struck it with a cricket bat.
Vermeulen agreed, explaining this was so because a crack in the wooden door is seen entering the right side of one of the four bullet holes and then leaving it on the left side.

“If it was the other way the crack would have gone straight down,” Vermeulen said.
 
"Roux was rude and obnoxious with the state witnesses, so it's a case of getting your own back," said Laurie Pieters-James, an independent criminologist who has attended the trial. "Roux was sarcastic and belittling: 'You are in some way inferior to me.' Gerrie Nel's approach is different. He's directly attacking: 'You are lying.' He's much more direct in going for the jugular."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/12/barry-roux-gerrie-nel-oscar-pistorius-trial

Of course, OP supporters refuse to admit Nel is doing exactly the same thing as Roux... his job! It seems that Roux is supposed to be nasty to (perfectly innocent) State witnesses, because that's his job - but when Nel is 'nasty' to the accused, a man on trial for murdering his girlfriend... that's mean! He's supposed to be nice and friendly, not ask him awkward questions, treat him kindly and blah blah blah. Nel is doing a great job, and that's been backed up by other attorneys who have been following the trial.
 
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