Trial - Ross Harris #2

[blue22]

About the bolded portion above----hard to believe they would assert that Cooper was asleep. How can they assert anything about Cooper when they are claiming that RH 'forgot' he was even there?

I've been wondering that, too. "He must have been asleep" is very weak and risky. If they say he forgot, they can't logically also say he was asleep. They can't say he was asleep, because RH says he forgot. If he knew he was asleep, he's admitting he knew his state.

 

[blue22]

JMHO, only thing it backed up is yes he was in the holding area. JMHO the State HAD to put the guy on because he did the interview and they wanted his testimony. They could have used the video because it was CCPD property and RH was on it. For any demeanor. Since doesn't have any sound they needed this paid interview person testimony. Again, not much can tell about the whole 2-3 hours this Witness was there by only 4 min 6 sec. I can not see the Defense insinuating that RH is seen on the phone upset if the full video of RH in that holding area does not show that. Not in fron of the Jury. Because they are going to see RH on the phone if I understood correctly. And if so, I fully expect the Defense to point out where this phone are is JMHO

They did say where the phone is, I thought. They pointed out the location and asked the witness about it. They said the witness didn't know if he was upset or not, and then did nothing to show he was. I suppose they could at a later date, but if there is no sound I don't know how they could. (Unless part of the video does have sound, of course. Or perhaps the call was recorded?)
As I said, the defense could show more at a later date. I don't really understand why they didn't do it then, to undermine the testimony. But, they may have a plan for it. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[ScotAng]

Unfortunately I think Dr. Diamond will have all the answers. And I don't mean that he will convince me of Ross' innocence just that he's impressive on the stand. He's decent looking, affable and has a knack for explaining his theory in an easy to understand way. I've also noticed (JMOO) that over time he has moved the goalposts a tiny bit - the Jayde Poole trial left me scratching my head. Regardless, he consistenly convinces juries that anyone, even the best parent, can be fooled by misfirings in the amygdala and basal ganglia. Personally (again JMO) I feel like he's leaving out an important element - the position the child holds in the parent's internal list of priorities.

I don't doubt that Dr. Diamond is sincere and not just conning defense teams to lay out big fees for his testimony - he actually will agree on the stand that it's just a theory - and I think much of his science is sound. But... there really isn't a way to study it using the scientific method. He can't wire up a parent's head and send them off to forget their kid in a car and even if it was possible it would be unethical.

It's a lot to swallow that Dr. Diamond claims any of these: >>>>>>>>

<rsbm>
The problem with this type of witness, is, in effect, they ask people to disassociate from their own logical, lifelong, thinking process. I'm curious as to how it's known Dr Diamond's testimony convinced juries of anything. Did they single him out after trials? Just curious and interested, not a hint of snark intended.

'Course it'll help if he's an easy talker, smooth without being oily. It could also backfire spectacularly though. I guess it comes down to how open to suggestion 12 individuals are.

And the toddler who for every other minute until then is said to have most certainly been talking up a storm and flinging his arms about and in every way possible making it impossible to be unseen or unheard, whispers back -ok, and stays silent for 15-16 seconds as his daddy sits in the car, gathering up his stuff, getting ready to leave him there alone?

No way. Jmo.

What I got from that, was if anyone HAD seen/heard Cooper, RH would've intended that person to hear, 'Wait right here Coop'. jmo

I think this is one of those personal- experience -as -a -parent -informs -one's perspective things.

I don't think Cooper looked very alert and awake. I saw a toddler who looked like he'd woken up enough to not be half asleep, but wasn't all the way awake either.At that age there is no way my DS would have allowed me to carry him around like that if he was awake, and no way I'd want to either.

The counter wasn't crowded at all, RH knew the place and the crew, no worries, imo.

If he was half-awake, it would've made more sense for RH to do the drive through ... unless he wanted to wake him properly for Daycare.
bbmAt 22 months? Mine were all over the place then, wanted carried one minute, down the next. Must admit I preferred it when they wanted down.

 

[Hope4More]

About the bolded portion above----hard to believe they would assert that Cooper was asleep. How can they assert anything about Cooper when they are claiming that RH 'forgot' he was even there?

This is what I get for looking here one last time before I get my geriatric self to bed to get enough sleep to handle being on a school bus with 27 rambunctious 13-14 year olds .

The DT: Suggest. Imply. Infer. Can't state as fact Cooper was asleep, but can do the rest. And heck, maybe they won't go there at all. Just a possibility, and jmo.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[katydid23]

Chaperoning a research field trip with my DS tomorrow and will miss trial. Looking forward to reading here afterwards to catch up. Please let tomorrow not be the day Stoddard testifies...

Have fun tomorrow. :wink: They grow up too fast. Of course, at 13/14, they think they are fully grown.

 

[GA_Peach]

I just finished watching Winston Milling's testimony. It's hard keep with up full day after full day of testimony!

Two things stuck out at me:

1) Winston testified that Ross would be a little late to the movie (http://lawnewz.com/video/watch-live-justin-ross-harris-hot-car-death-trial-day-8/ that testimony is right around the 354:20 mark in the linked video). Winston did not testify at what time that statement was made. Alex also made a similar statement, but I believe that his testimony included a time.

2) The DT keeps talking about the "massive" traffic area around the Cumberland Mall area. They are suggesting this as a logical reason for Ross's early departure from work. However, Ross and his buddies research everything. Why couldn't Ross have researched the traffic on that day before he left the office? Ross appears to have a strong affinity for Google so why not use Google Traffic to see how clear the roads were? The roads would have all been green, which indicate no traffic. There are also numerous traffic apps to help gauge the level of traffic. Given the electronic world in which we live and in which was Ross was certainly partaking, he did not need to leave the "massive" traffic area up to chance. He could have researched it like he supposedly did for every other aspect of his life.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Which teacher said Ross only carried Cooper in if he was asleep/not all the way awake? Sorry, I must have missed it. How does that relate to Cooper sleeping or being awake that day? Ross didn't bring Cooper in that day, he left him in the car. Without Ross' testimony we will never know if Cooper slept on the way to CFA so why would you just assume that's what happened?

Catching up. If hasn't been answered, Ms. Hawks according to my notes was the teacher. She is the one who couldn't remember if she called or if asked RH when he called about bringing them breakfast from CF.

 

[arkansasmimi]

We have agreed on that, I think, for quite a long while. If my timeline is accurate and RH was texting while in the car (at all) en route, much less at the intersection that might have cued him, imo his degree of culpability increases exponentially.

Just thought about something. Hands free texting. My brother does it all the time with his iPhone. I do not use a smart phone lol Does it tell you if it was typed or spoken into and the smart phone does the typing? JMHO One would think that with technology, the forensic reports should be able to determine that. And the en route would make sense at the intersection as you say in you post. Mind elsewhere.

 

[popsicle]

I have my grand-baby tomorrow so I'll be catching up in the evening. Have a good night and day tomorrow, all.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I just finished watching Winston Milling's testimony. It's hard keep with up full day after full day of testimony!

Two things stuck out at me:

1) Winston testified that Ross would be a little late to the movie (http://lawnewz.com/video/watch-live-justin-ross-harris-hot-car-death-trial-day-8/ that testimony is right around the 354:20 mark in the linked video). Winston did not testify at what time that statement was made. Alex also made a similar statement, but I believe that his testimony included a time.

2) The DT keeps talking about the "massive" traffic area around the Cumberland Mall area. They are suggesting this as a logical reason for Ross's early departure from work. However, Ross and his buddies research everything. Why couldn't Ross have researched the traffic on that day before he left the office? Ross appears to have a strong affinity for Google so why not use Google Traffic to see how clear the roads were? The roads would have all been green, which indicate no traffic. There are also numerous traffic apps to help gauge the level of traffic. Given the electronic world in which we live and in which was Ross was certainly partaking, he did not need to leave the "massive" traffic area up to chance. He could have researched it like he supposedly did for every other aspect of his life.

from post 7 this thread

OK, going back over my notes and checking with the testimony. Both Winston and Alex testified they thought RH was going to be late. And under Direct Winston said when asked if that where they thought he was going to be late was the 4:09pm chat msg " be at the theater ASAP" Yes. And according to prior testimony from Security Guard, he left iirc 4:15 or 4:16.

** State, gives Winston copies and asks him if actual copy of June 17, 2014 and leading up through June 18, 2014 as if it were a complete set. It was not, Def entered on Alex testimony full including some of June 16, 2014. Again well played by the Defense. JMHO

6/18/14
942 am they decided to go to the 5pm show
11:09 am verify movie before they went to lunch
2:21 pm Alex buying your ticket (to RH)
4:09 pm RH: Be at the theater ASAP

RH left out the front doors 6 or 7 min after that chat msg.

Maybe Alex and Winston didn't realize that RH was leaving in 6 or 7 min and misunderstood, thinking he was gonna be there late due to the ASAP? I agree if someone told me that, I would probably assume same thing. Yet as far as we know by testimony he left out front doors, straight to his vehicle, started up immediately and left immediately. Drove down the road (unsure of name) but as Hope4More time earlier was there prob 4:20ish first officers arrived at 4:24pm.
Last edited by arkansasmimi; Today at 12:04 AM.

2. Possible that RH did google traffic. I not sure we have heard that from any witness yet though. I sure the State would use that if he did, but only if it showed traffic. They could still have something like that. I would think there would be some kind of traffic reports for those days, that many vehicles. JMHO

 

[arkansasmimi]

I have my grand-baby tomorrow so I'll be catching up in the evening. Have a good night and day tomorrow, all.

Love and kiss those precious babies! Whomever chose the name Grand for them were right on the money. There will be videos to catch up thank goodness! Enjoy

 

[DeDee]

My take away from today is that Ross' buddies are angry. They had just finished legally establishing their new business of web design and maintenance when Ross up and got himself arrested. Ross used them like he used the prostitutes. His buddies never spoke to the LEO or the DT after their initial interviews. They did not write to Ross nor call him in jail. I dare to think they are repulsed by Ross' actions.

The piano guy is 23yo but was 21yo when he was stuck in holding with Ross. Ross acted like he was at a baseball game with a pal and not as if he had just left the frightening scene of his own son lying dead on the hot asphalt. Why weren't Ross' hands covering his face in tears, grief, shame and fear? Noooo. He sat back and propped his arm on the back of the seat ready for the next inning.

After viewing the scene when RH was dropped off after lunch by his SUV in the parking lot, a member of Chat conducted an experiment. She took a package of lightbulbs, placed them in a plastic bag and handed them to her SIL. She asked him to open the driver's car door and put the bag of lightbulbs inside the car. He ducked and peeked inside as he placed the lightbulbs in the car. He told her later that he didn't want to break any of her lightbulbs. He did not know that she was snapping his photo during this experiment. Another member asked her boyfriend to do the same. Both men were about 6' tall. He also ducked his head. We determined it was unnatural to hold one's head above the top of the car, as Ross did, when tossing an item into the vehicle, especially breakable items.

 

[MsMarple]

Catching up. If hasn't been answered, Ms. Hawks according to my notes was the teacher. She is the one who couldn't remember if she called or if asked RH when he called about bringing them breakfast from CF.

Got it, thanks.

10:44 a.m.

“(Cooper) was an active toddler, talking and playing with his friends,” Hawkins said, smiling.

Sometimes he would be awake, sometimes he would be sleeping and Harris would come in carrying Cooper on his shoulder or in a car seat, Hawkins said.

If Cooper had been to Chick-fil-A before coming to daycare, he would usually be active when he showed up, Hawkins said. .

http://www.ajc.com/news/minute-minute-updates-from-the-ross-harris-trial-oct/kfWMc6J7SeFSUudLXedvRN/

 

[katydid23]

If Cooper had been to Chick-fil-A before coming to daycare, he would usually be active when he showed up, Hawkins said. .
http://www.ajc.com/news/minute-minut...eFSUudLXedvRN/

 

[arkansasmimi]

Quote Originally Posted by blue22 View Post
I'm really surprised the chief ME Brian Frist wasn't on the stand longer. I was shocked the defense had so little questions for him.

Another poor showing for the defense today, IMO. They (especially the younger one) badgered witnesses for absolutely no reason. They had the security guy on the stand waaaay too long and were unnecessarily aggressive with him. They had been doing a fantastic job, but the last two days have not been their best. Maybe they'll turn a corner tomorrow, and of course they still have their side to show.

If what they have is loving family man and pseudo science of false memories...I don't know. I'm sure they must have more

Just a reminder. Any witness can be called by the Defense or even recalled by the State. Even multiple times. Seen it done with the State recalling, as they get to that portion of their case, they recall a witness for that. Saw many times in the Arron Lewis murder trial of Beverly Carter. What is odd to me, is they had the Lead Det on the stand at beginning, and recalled him through out States case. To flow if you will with testimony. In this case in chief, Lead Det Stoddard has been referenced multiple times as well as Det Murphy. Yet so far they have not had them on the stand. JMHO I can see few possible reasons for that. And think Stoddard will have to be up next or pretty soon. JMHO

LOL Especially after trial when Judge asked State if they were on pace,and Boring said yes but that anticipated it slowing down pretty soon, Judge, I can imagine.

Jmho from watching trials on live stream and in person.

RBBM ^^ *When testimony was done with Dr. Frist, Def Ludwig stated that he was still under subpoena. So just as I thought he will be recalled.

Also there was a lot of info that the Def brought out and got on the record:

Dr Frist, Chief ME
Direct Evans asked if you left a child in a car 90-95 degrees less than 100 could child surived
Frist: yes can surive
Evans: if you left one in there from 9 am - 4 pm
Frist: yes if that the temp on the outside of car
***Cooper was not left in there at 9 it was 9:25 iirc and 4:16pm

Interesting Cross
Ludwig: Forensic definition of Homicide is death caused by someone else
Frist: yes
Ludwig: Forensic definition is different than Legal definition (murder)
Frist: yes
Ludwig: Official Death Certificate "Undetermined"
Frist: yes, but a letter was sent at the end of week of death that Cause of Death is believed to be Hyperthermia and Manner of Death Homicide
Ludwig: was there a DC filed in this case
Frist: should be
Ludwig: Entered filed copy of DC Def Exhibit # 44
Frist: but that copy is not signed
Ludwig: correct but it is certified on the back, what is the date
Frist: yes.. 9/30/2014
Ludwig: what were you doing that day
Frist: leaving
Frist: a paper document does not mean that its the end, if things change, can be amended. Left open for further investigation.

Ludwig: temp in car 90 - 100
Frist: normal body temp 98.2 with a 7 degree threshold 104 before irreversable changes
Ludwig: within 1 hr?
Frist: Cooper temp has to get that high
Ludwig: could have died before or after noon correct?
Frist: what bothers me, is I have been told it was only in the 90's
Ludwig: OH REALLY? Who told you that? Someone at CCPD a Det
Frist: Someone at CCPD obviously, but dont remember who


***What is interesting to me, is that on ME Investigator Jacksons report, pg 5/18 is interesting about the temp on the reconstruction. http://media.wix.com/ugd/943520_7cd46570b4a9474b9e36c87173e7a14d.pdf

 

[arkansasmimi]

More interesting Cross on Dr Frist by Ludwig

Ludwig: gasses cause bloating
Frist: not in this case
Frist: gasses can be released mouth, nose, anus. Gasses pushing can cause bm
Ludwig: no feces in this case
Frist: correct
Ludwig: no decomp smell no froth
Frist: he was in a closed space, had been breathing, sweating, and urinated, although no bowel movement could have released gas
Ludwig: but no decomp smell
Frist: no, it would not have been that kind of smell
Not known when Cooper last breath was taken, he was sweaty, wet from wet diaper and sweat, same position for long time when found

 

[arkansasmimi]

On the doll:
Frist: Measurements are comparible - very close to Cooper
Ludwig: but not exactly
Frist: well 1/2 inch off one way or other pretty much same

They went over the measurements.
*crown to rump was explained as top of head to bottom sitting down

Evans, noticed a typo and I listed to it multiple times and can't understand what he is meaning. Med Tech Eric Bailey will be asked about it.

Again as I have stated jmho prior this goes to Cooper sitting in the car seat.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Dr Frist on ReDirect with Evans
They are talking about the abrasion on the child

Evans: many abrasions

Frist: cant say what caused

Frist: what bothers me, is the multiple on left and right sides. Cooper slumped over must have some how touched something hot. Must have felt that to some degree.

DEFENSE: RE CROSS

Ludwig: could those have happened AFTER his death? LEO doing CPR?

Frist: We try not to do that - We meaning first responders. We are trying to save a life not harm

Ludwig: 3 civilians who had put Cooper on a hot pavement, trying to do CPR, then 90 - 100 compressions

Frist: possible

****Evidently he didn't know about this? JMHO he was kinda shocked or startled.

Ludwig : gasses, fluids, that's also where could come out and seen doing CPR, right

Frist: correct

Ludwig also asked if the child had been sitting in the same position all day was moved, the moving of the child out of the car could have caused some of the gasses (as in smell, moving the body caused body to expel or stir the smell. Dr Frist said yes, possible.

And Dr Frist will be back

 

[DexterMorgan]

They say you can hurt a child by doing cpr compressions to roughly.

 

[DaleTray]

My personal opinion, thus far is that R.H. completely planned the murder of little Cooper.

I believe him to be a sociopath.
He really has concerns about his well being only.
I think that All of his interactions with people were contrived. I really do.

Who on earth can possibly spend even 1 hour in a jail chit-chatting with anyone after finding the tortured body of their son?

I think, that he is a complete liar and fraud.

Proving this though, may be well impossible.

I started out thinking the same thing. But I am a true believer, and know it for a fact, how a brain can be distracted in 1 second. I am often led astray and I really beat myself up over it at times. I have said from day 1, I sure hope this dad doesn't get convicted on premeditated if he was only( not said to belittle CH life) neglectful. Then I started leaning, just a small bit, to the way you expressed your opinion. After listening to testimony thus far, I don't think it was premeditated. RH deserves prison time on neglect. A small concern for me now, as was stated by someone yesterday that I can't recall their name. In my opinion, it's possible the jury, or some small group of the jury, could consider this a prosecution witch-hunt (with lack of any proof of premeditation) and could possibly negotiate the jury to convict on texting with a minor (which would be under-convicting from my perspective)
I believe if the district attorney could have a do-over, they would not charge w premeditation. I think Stoddard knew early on they shouldn't have arrested RH and has built this case to cover up for the arrest mistake. Options: Piper could have detained RH for security reasons then released. Stoddard could have done much more Cooper/Ross research before arresting.