Trial - Ross Harris #4

[Magdalyn]

Yeah, it's lost on me.

Is the scan to produce a 3D animation re-enactment for the jury see?

 

[Hope4More]

Even though I am not persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt that Ross deliberately left Cooper in the car, the proximity of the carseat to the driver seat is one of the compelling aspects of the State's case. I can understand how people could believe that Ross must have seen Cooper in the carseat when he was driving to work or when he got out of the car. Also, I don't think I've ever heard of another case where the parent/caregiver actually went back to the car another time before discovering the child dead hours later.

Those two things are hard to reconcile with an accident, I will agree. All the other junk about texting and wanting a child-free life and motive are not in any way persuasive to me though - same with most of the State's evidence.

A returning to a car without seeing a toddler hot car death just happened in Florida. Firefighter dad left his 2 yr old son his truck, thinking he had dropped him off at daycare. Went home, son still in car. Left hours later to go to the grocery store, shopped, and it wasn't until he opened the door to load (or was it back home and unloading?) groceries that he saw his dead son. He'd been left in the truck for 8 hours.

 

[gitana1]

I haven't been on webslueths for a looong time. But I have been trying to follow this case. I do actually believe good parents can forget a child in the car under certain circumstances. I don't believe this is one.
In all the cases I've read where drugs or alcohol haven't been involved and the parents seemed decent, the "forgetting" wasn't instantaneous.

I've read Dr. Diamond and how we can instantly forget that we just locked the garage seconds after we leave because we go into automatic pilot. But a child isn't a garage door. People forget things more easily that aren't as important so they can make room for the things that are- like getting to work on time, not getting into an accident, and getting kids safely to school. Children, their well-being and safety are the most
important issues in most people's lives. Not the garage door.

In not one of the cases I've reviewed of decent parents who forgot their kid, did the forgetting occur within seconds of strapping them into the car. Pretty much all had a drive to work from the time they strapped the kid in that lasted at least 15-30 minutes or so. You know how sometimes when you're going somewhere you suddenly find yourself going the wrong way because the wrong way is to work or someplace you go regularly, and your mind has gone into autopilot? That doesn't happen in seconds. It happens after several minutes of doing the routine act of driving on the highway, lulled into the same routine from starting on the same route you always take, after several minutes of being relaxed as you drive a familiar path. That has happened to parents several minutes after they start driving. Not 40 seconds.

Also, "triggers": Several of the unfortunate parents in these cases remembered their child, in one case a foster child, after seeig or hearing something that reminds them of the kid. In the case of the foster child, the foster dad was watching tv in the evening when a news report came on causing him to suddenly recall his baby. He rushed out to the car and she was dead.
In a recent, very tragic case, an overtired dad forgot to drop his baby off. He later was picked up for lunch by his wife, IIRC. They sat down and she suddenly began talking about how cute their daughter looked that morning in her outfit and how the daycare workers would love her. The dad became silent, then white, then started screaming. He raced to his car and they found her.

Ross Harris had far too many triggers that day for me to find his story credible. That and the timing really clinch it for me.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Grimstead testified the 3-D scans will help the jury understand the position of the car seat inside the vehicle

Grimstead said he took the car seat this morning and placed it in Harris’ SUV at the request of assistant district attorney Jesse Evans, who is currently questioning the detective. Grimstead he used the original measurements and measuring tape that he did when first examining the SUV.

Defense attorney Bryan Lumpkin is now cross examining Grimstead.

You weren’t aware of the extension of that seat before of it in court, the attorney said. Before that though, Grimstead testified that the car seat was in the same position as the day Cooper died, but on that day the extension was up, not down, Lumpkin pointed out.

“It turns out that testimony is just not true,” Lumpkin said.

When Grimstead originally processed the car seat, he measured from the floor to the top of the car seat. He didn’t use it when placing the car seat back in, Lumpkin pointed out. Grimstead was alone when processing the car so there are no photos of him taking the measurements.

They measured from the front dash to the closest to the part of the car seat. The handle staid in the same position, it would be down in the front, Grimstead said. I have not moved the handle back and forth, he said.

Lumpkin, however, pointed out that he did indeed the move handle when putting the evidence tag put on there. Yes, Grimstead agreed.

 

[blue22]

Smack dab right in his face? Seriously, can you translate that into inches or whatnot, , as in, what was the incline/tilt of the seat- was Cooper essentially lying down, with his head next to RH? Or was the seat tilted enough towards the backseat his head was in fact not visible to RH, no matter how many (disputed) inches away the seat was from RH's front seat?

I had the same car and a rear facing seat. NOT the same rear facing seat. (Mine was smaller, I can only assume. It was rated for a much smaller height and wait. Mine outgrew it at 11 months.) I am 5 foot 3, perhaps a tad taller. My seat was likely more forward, since RH is much taller. Something about this vehicle, is that you can't scoot it too far back, because the seat really does sit right there between the seats. My right elbow would hit the seat which drove me bonkers. I really, really cannot fathom how Ross didn't see Cooper. I was constantly aware of the car seat, and it's proximity was actually irritating at times. Like knocking it with my elbow juuust as the baby fell asleep, or getting my bag caught on it as I got in. I am trying to keep an open mind about a lot of things in this case, but I can't with the car seat. The texting, sexing, general disgusting behavior doesn't impact me much...but the car seat situation does it for me.

 

[Inthedetails]

I haven't been on webslueths for a looong time. But I have been trying to follow this case. I do actually believe good parents can forget a child in the car under certain circumstances. I don't believe this is one.
In all the cases I've read where drugs or alcohol haven't been involved and the parents seemed decent, the "forgetting" wasn't instantaneous.

I've read Dr. Diamond and how we can instantly forget that we just locked the garage seconds after we leave because we go into automatic pilot. But a child isn't a garage door. People forget ****s more easily that aren't as important so they can make room for the things that are- like getting to work on time, not getting into an accident, and getting kids safely to school. Children, their well-being and safety are the most
important issues in most people's lives. Not the garage door.

In not one of the cases I've reviewed of decent parents who forgot their kid, did the forgetting occur within seconds of strapping them into the car. Pretty much all had a drive to work from the time they strapped the kid in that lasted at least 15-30 minutes or so. You know how sometimes when you're going somewhere you suddenly find yoursel going the wrong way because the wrong way is to work or someplace you go regularly, and your mind has gone into autopilot? That doesn't happen in seconds. It happens after several minutes of doing the routine act of driving on the highway, lulled into the same routine from starting on the same route you always take, after several minutes of being relaxed as you drive a familiar path. That has happened to parents several minutes after they start driving. Not 40 seconds.

Also, "triggers": Several of the unfortunate parents in these cases remembered their child, in one case a foster child, after seeig or hearing something that reminds them of the kid. In the case of the foster child, the foster dad was watching tv in the evening when a news report came on causing him to suddenly recall his baby. He rushed out to the car and she was dead.
In a recent, very tragic case, an overtired dad forgot to drop his baby off. He later was picked up for lunch by his wife, IIRC. They sat down and she suddenly began talking about how cute their daughter looked that morning in her outfit and how the daycare workers would love her. The dad became silent, then white, then started screaming. He raced to his car and they found her.

Ross Harris had far too many triggers that day for me to find his story credible. That and the timing really clinch it for me.

Yay! Nice to see you here, Gitana. And I agree with your post 100%.

 

[GA_Peach]

I would think the jury seeing into the vehicle is much more accurate and important. I'm not sure why the state even needs the dang video with that being allowed.

Agreed. I despise the way the State is trying this case.

Is the scan to produce a 3D animation re-enactment for the jury see?

It is not a reenactment. This was a point of contention during the PC hearing. It's a 3D video model.

 

[Hope4More]

Well if you go with the notion that the whole thing was manipulated to give the jury a misleading view of Cooper's location ... then I understand it. I think that's a possibility. Like I said earlier, I think all this attention on having to re-do the scans is really bad for the State because it makes them look like they are either incompetent or are deliberately manipulating evidence to deceive the jury.

Or, I have to say it, though I am following this trial closely and no longer extend the State any benefit of the doubt, this car seat back and forth goes over my head, I find it exhausting, and (trying to put myself in the place of what I'd guess is a confused jury) to be perfectly blunt, Imo both sides would be better served by just cutting to the chase and moving on.

 

[blue22]

Or, I have to say it, though I am following this trial closely and no longer extend the State any benefit of the doubt, this car seat back and forth goes over my head, I find it exhausting, and (trying to put myself in the place of what I'd guess is a confused jury) to be perfectly blunt, Imo both sides would be better served by just cutting to the chase and moving on.

I'm starting to think the 3d model isn't favorable for both sides!

 

[Hope4More]

I haven't been on webslueths for a looong time. But I have been trying to follow this case. I do actually believe good parents can forget a child in the car under certain circumstances. I don't believe this is one.
In all the cases I've read where drugs or alcohol haven't been involved and the parents seemed decent, the "forgetting" wasn't instantaneous.

I've read Dr. Diamond and how we can instantly forget that we just locked the garage seconds after we leave because we go into automatic pilot. But a child isn't a garage door. People forget ****s more easily that aren't as important so they can make room for the things that are- like getting to work on time, not getting into an accident, and getting kids safely to school. Children, their well-being and safety are the most
important issues in most people's lives. Not the garage door.

In not one of the cases I've reviewed of decent parents who forgot their kid, did the forgetting occur within seconds of strapping them into the car. Pretty much all had a drive to work from the time they strapped the kid in that lasted at least 15-30 minutes or so. You know how sometimes when you're going somewhere you suddenly find yoursel going the wrong way because the wrong way is to work or someplace you go regularly, and your mind has gone into autopilot? That doesn't happen in seconds. It happens after several minutes of doing the routine act of driving on the highway, lulled into the same routine from starting on the same route you always take, after several minutes of being relaxed as you drive a familiar path. That has happened to parents several minutes after they start driving. Not 40 seconds.

Also, "triggers": Several of the unfortunate parents in these cases remembered their child, in one case a foster child, after seeig or hearing something that reminds them of the kid. In the case of the foster child, the foster dad was watching tv in the evening when a news report came on causing him to suddenly recall his baby. He rushed out to the car and she was dead.
In a recent, very tragic case, an overtired dad forgot to drop his baby off. He later was picked up for lunch by his wife, IIRC. They sat down and she suddenly began talking about how cute their daughter looked that morning in her outfit and how the daycare workers would love her. The dad became silent, then white, then started screaming. He raced to his car and they found her.

Ross Harris had far too many triggers that day for me to find his story credible. That and the timing really clinch it for me.

Hi Gitana! I always value your opinion, so have 2 questions for you. Isn't it Dr. Diamond's contention that the "forgetting" in such a short time can in fact be one of the key aspects of FBS?

And, you refer to the fact that in not one of the cases you've reviewed of "decent" parents has this forgetting occurred in such a short time. How was it known whether or not these parents were "decent" before the death of their children in cars, and are you saying you don't believe it's possible for a less than great parent to be capable of criminal negligence in the circumstances, rather than being guilty of intent?

Also, what of the possibility the "forgetting" didn't in fact happen in those seconds driving, but began as RH sat in his car, doing whatever, as Cooper fell asleep?

RH left CFA at 9:18. He didn't arrive to the intersection until around 9:24, and the drive to the intersection from where he turned out of CFA took literally seconds.

I think that "in a few seconds" might well be misleading.

 

[cricket49]

This detective is a good witness and obviously has testified in court before. He usually gives very brief answers or yes/no.

 

[cady]

I think that the vast majority of FBS cases are true and tragic and accidental. But RH did his homework, and was relying on that to be the consensus in this case before staging and completing the crime. JMO

 

[MsMarple]

Anyone understand the significance of the sunglasses? I kinda dozed off for a bit...

 

[Hope4More]

I think that the vast majority of FBS cases are true and tragic and accidental. But RH did his homework, and was relying on that to be the consensus in this case before staging and completing the crime. JMO

No evidence was found on any of his computers or phones that he conducted any research (by any definition) about FBS or anything related.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Anyone understand the significance of the sunglasses? I kinda dozed off for a bit...

is this sunglasses here in the heat reconstruction? I remb ss this and the glasses being asked about.


ETA no that is the seat belt. BUT notice the car seat was still manipulated in this photo. Gray area at bottom. tilts the head part down more.

 

[JudyBolton]

I just watched the video after Raessi testified and based on what is captured I think RH using the term Malicious Intent just previous (and being the reason the officer began recording) is very believable and fits in with everything else RH says that it captured on video. In fact, I think it is a big stretch for people to think this "made up".

I found Raessi to be a very good witness and I find no reason to believe he is lying about this!

I also thought it was a good point by the state that "Malicious Intent" is not a term used in Alabama where RH got all his police dept. training... But is a charge/term used in the state of Georgia. Hmmm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And like everything else, the jurors are the final arbiters of whether Raessi is lying or not.

If you believe he's lying, it is pretty amazing that L.E. worked so quickly to get everyone to sign onto the plan to frame JRH. Did they have a pow-wow in the conference room where they all agreed to do this???

 

[ScotAng]

His head stayed above, which is kind of odd to me. Don't you look into the car when dropping off a fragile item?

But I wonder if the jurors will try and decide tomorrow, while looking at the SUV, if they can see the car seat from where he was when he was walking up to the car.

It has you pondering what you habitually do, doesn't it. I don't remember ever putting anything into the car without having to bend down slightly, 5'5" here. I do know if putting something on either front seat I make sure it's right where I'll see it on return, in case someone sits on it. I put anything glass in the back. All requires bending in some fashion.

DH said he's put 2 light-bulbs in the side-door once, other than that he puts things on passenger side floor, smaller items on that seat, when alone. 6'1", no point insulting him asking if he'd need to bend to do either of those.

Regarding the viewing of the car, the location, space surrounding, etc., will be interesting. Tomorrow's going to be a huge day for jurors.

 

[gitana1]

Hi Gitana! I always value your opinion, so have 2 questions for you. Isn't it Dr. Diamond's contention that the "forgetting" in such a short time can in fact be one of the key aspects of FBS?

And, you refer to the fact that in not one of the cases you've reviewed of "decent" parents has this forgetting occurred in such a short time. How was it known whether or not these parents were "decent" before the death of their children in cars, and are you saying you don't believe it's possible for a less than great parent to be capable of criminal negligence in the circumstances, rather than being guilty of intent? thanks

Not in 40 seconds. He uses the analogy of forgetting that you locked the garage one second after you did it, but that's to help us understand how the process can happen. But kids aren't garage doors. Like I said, we forget multiple, routine things we do, everyday, but mostly so our brains can make room for the important stuff. Like our kids. Again, in not one of those cases did the parents have a decision to make regarding a turn that was seconds after strapping in their child. We get lulled into autopilot when driving after several minutes. Not seconds.

As to what I mean by "decent" parents, I mean parents who had exhibited, like these, that they loved their child, consistently cared well for their kids, showed appropriate affection, involvement, etc. As opposed to the cases involving parents on drugs, in bars, with criminal histories or having past involvement with CPS. In those cases, charges are typically brought. Not as much in cases involving typical, middle class parents.

I think less than great parents can absolutely be guilty of negligence rather than intent. In fact, most of the hot car deaths due to crummy parents seem to involve criminal negligence. Not intent. I actually don't know one that has been proven or charged as intentional except this one.

But Ross Harris wasnt on drugs. He didn't exhibit a pattern of neglecting his kid. He didn't leave his kid intentionally in the car while he drank all day in a bar, forgetting until too late that the kid was still out there. So that brings is back to the caring parent on autopilot scenario. And all of those involved loger drives before the childcare facility turn off. Nah. Not buying it.

 

[blue22]

It has you pondering what you habitually do, doesn't it. I don't remember ever putting anything into the car without having to bend down slightly, 5'5" here. I do know if putting something on either front seat I make sure it's right where I'll see it on return, in case someone sits on it. I put anything glass in the back. All requires bending in some fashion.

DH said he's put 2 light-bulbs in the side-door once, other than that he puts things on passenger side floor, smaller items on that seat, when alone. 6'1", no point insulting him asking if he'd need to bend to do either of those.

Regarding the viewing of the car, the location, space surrounding, etc., will be interesting. Tomorrow's going to be a huge day for jurors.

Just jumping off your post. It's incredible the way this case has changed things for me. I never used to look in car windows or listen for children in cars. Now I can't help but take a glance and listen as I walk by cars. Every single time I get in my car and the heat takes my breath away...I think of little Cooper. It has impacted other areas of my life as well.

I guess everyone here probably has a case that sticks with them. This is one for me.

 

[minor4th]

Or, I have to say it, though I am following this trial closely and no longer extend the State any benefit of the doubt, this car seat back and forth goes over my head, I find it exhausting, and (trying to put myself in the place of what I'd guess is a confused jury) to be perfectly blunt, Imo both sides would be better served by just cutting to the chase and moving on.

Agreed.