Trial - Ross Harris #5

[SuperTmo]

I think it's possible RH didn't see Cooper, or even if he did get a glimpse of him out of the corner of his eye, didn't register what he was seeing. If his mind had gone on autopilot and he didn't think Cooper was in the car, didn't expect to see him and wasn't looking for him, he could have failed to notice him even if he was in his line of vision.

Like in the invisible gorilla experiment, where scientists showed a video of people passing a ball between themselves and told their subjects to count the ball passes in the video. In the middle of the video a guy in a gorilla suit walks in between the people playing ball, thumps his chest, and walks off again. Fully half of the subjects were so engrossed in counting the ball passes that they did not see the gorilla and had no memory of it afterwards. If your mind is on other things, you can fail to see what is right in front of you.
http://theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html

He shouldn't need to SEE him to know he put him in the car just a few minutes before he left him to die. Less than a minute to the intersection. I'm sorry, this doesn't fit with the auto-pilot FBS garbage theory shopped around by Dr. Diamond.

 

[Rayemonde]

Believe me, if you have a baby and "got a glimpse of him out of the corner of your eye" you don't NOT see your baby. Not when you are looking over your shoulder to reverse into a parking spot or to lean right next to the
Car seat to grab your briefcase, coffee and phone.

Most people, sure. But RH wasn't exactly a responsible, conscientious person. I think he coukd have been so wrapped up in his thoughts he failed to register that Cooper was still in the car. I think he's a very selfish person and lacked a deep emotional connection with his son, so I think he could have just forgotten him.

His behaviour at the police station was just bizarre and I can see why it made LE feel sure he had killed his kid on purpose, but I think it's just as likely that he's just a selfish, self-centred person who killed Cooper completely by accident - and then immediately thought, Oh no, my life is over, why did this happen to me, everyone will hate me etc etc. He probably realised that LE expected to see more remorse and anguish from him, so he tried to fake it. Then he was trying to talk his way out of trouble by making himself out to be a super-responsible father - I watched videos on how to use the car seat, I was aware of the dangers of leaving kids in hot cars, I kissed him and told him I loved him every time I strapped him in just in case I died, this was my biggest fear - this was all RH trying to make himself sound good imo, trying to convince LE thay he is someone who is usually very conscientious about their child's safety and who doesn't deserve to be punished for one mistake. He's so clueless he doesn't realise that he is in big, big trouble this time. He probably did feel sad in his own way about Cooper dying but he would have soon moved on, and used his son's death to get sympathy and attention for himself. I don't think he's a sociopath, but I think he has very immature/ underdeveloped feelings of empathy and responsibility... He sure didn't react to his son's death in the way most parents would.

I think the state have got nothing that proves malice murder. Nothing at all. RH being a selfish, irresponsible man-child can explain everything that happened on that day just as well as premeditated murder can.

Also, I am still wondering about the text exchange between he and his wife the day before. She texted "Don't forget Cooper", and he replied "NEVER! Except for that one time." I do think it's possible RH had left Cooper in the car before, either by forgetting he was there - but then realising in time and rushing back to take him to daycare; or one purpose as other sleuths have hypothesised - leaving him in the car, clocking into work, and then sneaking out to take him to daycare. That would explain his incriminating comment on the veterinarian in the hot car video, and why he and his wife said it was their biggest fear...

All just :moo:

 

[minor4th]

I don't know. I think the element is either that the defendant was committing an inherently dangerous act or acted with reckless disregard. But either might be hard to determine absolutely. It may depend on whether the jurors feel anything that intensely distracts a parent while placing or transporting a child in a vehicle, which carries known risks of harm, is inherently dangerous behavior or behavior that indicates a reckless disregard for the safety of the child.

The jury instructions will tell us so much.

It's not in the statute (which is pretty vague). It's in the case law. Being the nerd I am, I did some research lol

Yep, I wonder if there will be big fights over the jury charge?

 

[BrownRice]

Was he behaving recklessly? Yes, especially since he apparently was well aware of how illegal it was to be sexting with minors. Was he endangering his wife's emotional and physical well being? Yes, obviously, especially by having sex with prostitutes, a man, and sexting with half of the women in Cobb County.

He had sex with a man? How did I miss that?

 

[Rayemonde]

Believe me, if you have a baby and "got a glimpse of him out of the corner of your eye" you don't NOT see your baby. Not when you are looking over your shoulder to reverse into a parking spot or to lean right next to the
Car seat to grab your briefcase, coffee and phone.

Most people, sure. But RH wasn't exactly a responsible, conscientious person. I think he could have been so wrapped up in his thoughts he failed to register that Cooper was still in the car. I think he's a very selfish person and lacked a deep emotional connection with his son, so I think he could have just forgotten him. His behaviour at the police station was just bizarre and I can see why it made LE feel sure he had killed his kid on purpose, but I think it's just as likely that he's just a selfish, self-centred person who killed Cooper completely by accident - and then immediately thought, Oh no, my life is over, why did this happen to me, everyone will hate me etc etc. He probably realised that LE expected to see more remorse and anguish from him, so he tried to fake it. Then he was trying to talk his way out of trouble by making himself out to be a super-responsible father - I watched videos on how to use the car seat, I was aware of the dangers of leaving kids in hot cars, I kissed him and told him I loved him every time I strapped him in just in case I died, this was my biggest fear - this was all RH trying to make himself sound good imo, trying to convince LE thay he is someone who is usually very conscientious about their child's safety and who doesn't deserve to be punished for one mistake. He's so clueless he doesn't realise that he is in big, big trouble this time. He probably did feel sad in his own way about Cooper dying but he would have soon moved on, and used his son's death to get sympathy and attention for himself. I don't think he's a sociopath, but I think he has very immature/ underdeveloped feelings of empathy and responsibility... He sure didn't react to his son's death in the way most parents would.

I think the state have got nothing that proves malice murder. Nothing at all. RH being a selfish, irresponsible man-child can explain everything that happened on that day just as well as premeditated murder can.

Also, I am still wondering about the text exchange between he and his wife the day before. She texted "Don't forget Cooper", and he replied "NEVER! Except for that one time." I do think it's possible RH had left Cooper in the car before, either by forgetting he was there - but then realising in time and rushing back to take him to daycare; or one purpose as other sleuths have hypothesised - leaving him in the car, clocking into work, and then sneaking out to take him to daycare. That would explain his incriminating comment on the veterinarian in the hot car video, and why he and his wife said it was their biggest fear...

 

[just the facts pls]

He shouldn't need to SEE him to know he put him in the car just a few minutes before he left him to die. Less than a minute to the intersection. I'm sorry, this doesn't fit with the auto-pilot FBS garbage theory shopped around by Dr. Diamond.

Plus JRH was having a conversation with a woman about escaping his son during breakfast at Chik-Fil-A. I am interested in what Dr Diamond has to say about this, since talking (sorry, complaining) about your kid would make it impossible to forget them just before shutting the door on them for the last time. This is assuming that holding them in your arms, talking to them and struggling to strap them into a car seat that was too small only moments before wouldn't remind someone they had a trip to make to day care.

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/local/7-keys-justin-ross-harris-trial/nq6B3/

 

[Hope4More]

He had sex with a man? How did I miss that?

Lol. Maybe because it was slid in sideways, mentioned in a text from Ms Meadows the motive to RH, iirc.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I was reading this just now and it seems like the body measurements listed don't add up, although I stayed up too late and got up too early so maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

Crown to rump is 14 inches.
But then these are listed which together = 19 inches:
Crown to shoulder is 8 inches.
Shoulder to rump is 11 inches.

Shouldn't the crown to rump measurement be equal to the crown to shoulder + shoulder to rump measurements? I feel based on how Cooper fit in the seat in the photo of him in the car seat (that appeared to be a few months old) there was no way his C-R measurement was only 14". Someone here said still fit in the seat by a good 5" based on measurements of the seat and Cooper but that is obviously false since we could see that wasn't the case from that one photo we saw. The crown to shoulder + shoulder rump measurements add up to 19" which seems more in line with how Cooper appeared to fit the car seat. But I'm just curious why those measurements don't equal each other.

This has been discussed many times. And I agree the numbers do not add up to 33 inches. Yet that comes from the ME Office and there has not been an amended. After Lumpkin went over the numbers line by line, Dr. Frist affirming each, on ReDirect Evans came up and asked Dr. Frist something about numbers. Pointed out something on the paper, a typo but it was hard to hear because Evans hit the mic on accident. He asked the jury if they understood and said ok I see yall shaking your heads. The ME Assistant is who did those measurements. Again if it is incorrect they had not been point out or changed until the Def brought up the matter in court.

Something else, in the AR Dr Frist himself writes the temp that day was 90s, but his testimony .. he said one thing that really bothered him was that he was told that the temp inside the car was 90s. Lumpkin .. oh really who told you that... Dr. Frist didn't remember but it really bothered him. So there is that. *conflicting testimony by witness.

 

[justkk]

Was Cooper narcoleptic? If so, I can maybe believe he fell asleep that fast. But otherwise, nope. Nobody was near his car when he parked it if I remember right. He may have fallen asleep from crying to the point of exhaustion by the time the first person walked near the car. But I am not surprised nobody heard him in a closed car with windows up. Maybe we live in different realities, but I can't hear my kid yelling at me when I pump gas if the windows are all closed, so I wouldn't expect anyone else to hear her either.

Thank you. I have heard this mentioned before - that he MUST have been asleep because no one heard him in that 15 seconds that the door was open before RH exited.
I think we have seen the video showing that scene and I don't recall that there was anyone near his car.... Or am I incorrect? You better believe that if there was ANYONE near his car at that time the DT would / will be hitting that hard - no? Maybe there is something we don't know that is coming in the defense...
Also, I don't think anyone that believes Cooper was awake is saying that he was yelling the entire time! Not to mention that if there was some weird circumstance that this child fell immediately asleep whenever he hit the car seat (unlikely) - IMO it doesn't matter. I am not buying that he did not see his child during that 33 seconds before he got out - there's just no way.
OR as he got back in at the end of the day. Putting his briefcase onto the passenger side floor, possibly having to move the lightbulbs over to the passenger seat... All while keeping his eyeballs focused only to the front?! No. Just no.



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[DexterMorgan]

I didn't know his wife texted him when he got to work?

 

[minor4th]

Few cases make it to SCOTUS so lawyers rely on what their district court will rule. Ga falls under the 11th district. It's not the easiest court to win an appeal in, particularly in a criminal case. I think they overturn aprox 10% of cases that make it to them. And very few cases it make to them. I was commenting on the chances of the appeals of this case overturning the verdict.

But this is in district court so it would go to the state court of appeals then the Ga Supreme Court. Not the federal circuit court of appeals or SCOTUS.

Having said that - Ga courts of appeal are not big on overturning trial courts. I've seen what I would consider errors by the judge that would be points for appeal if there's a conviction but nothing that I would call a slam dunk.

To me the biggest errors are: 1) the judge allowing years and years of sexting/texting that are hardly probative of child cruelty or malice murder; and 2) Not severing the sex offenses from the murder and cruelty offenses. I really do think that deprived Ross of a fair trial on the most serious charges, and I could see a court overturning a conviction because of the undue bias that would create. Again, not an absolute slam dunk though.


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[Hope4More]

Most people, sure. But RH wasn't exactly a responsible, conscientious person. I think he coukd have been so wrapped up in his thoughts he failed to register that Cooper was still in the car. I think he's a very selfish person and lacked a deep emotional connection with his son, so I think he could have just forgotten him.

His behaviour at the police station was just bizarre and I can see why it made LE feel sure he had killed his kid on purpose, but I think it's just as likely that he's just a selfish, self-centred person who killed Cooper completely by accident - and then immediately thought, Oh no, my life is over, why did this happen to me, everyone will hate me etc etc. He probably realised that LE expected to see more remorse and anguish from him, so he tried to fake it. Then he was trying to talk his way out of trouble by making himself out to be a super-responsible father - I watched videos on how to use the car seat, I was aware of the dangers of leaving kids in hot cars, I kissed him and told him I loved him every time I strapped him in just in case I died, this was my biggest fear - this was all RH trying to make himself sound good imo, trying to convince LE thay he is someone who is usually very conscientious about their child's safety and who doesn't deserve to be punished for one mistake. He's so clueless he doesn't realise that he is in big, big trouble this time. He probably did feel sad in his own way about Cooper dying but he would have soon moved on, and used his son's death to get sympathy and attention for himself. I don't think he's a sociopath, but I think he has very immature/ underdeveloped feelings of empathy and responsibility... He sure didn't react to his son's death in the way most parents would.

I think the state have got nothing that proves malice murder. Nothing at all. RH being a selfish, irresponsible man-child can explain everything that happened on that day just as well as premeditated murder can.

Also, I am still wondering about the text exchange between he and his wife the day before. She texted "Don't forget Cooper", and he replied "NEVER! Except for that one time." I do think it's possible RH had left Cooper in the car before, either by forgetting he was there - but then realising in time and rushing back to take him to daycare; or one purpose as other sleuths have hypothesised - leaving him in the car, clocking into work, and then sneaking out to take him to daycare. That would explain his incriminating comment on the veterinarian in the hot car video, and why he and his wife said it was their biggest fear...

All just :moo:

No, the "one time" he was referring to was forgetting to pick Cooper up from daycare. Leanna and RH juggled picking Cooper up, based on Leanna's schedule, which seems to have varied daily.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Why didn't they buy 2 toddler forward facing carseats? I'm sure he was eligible for store credit at Kmart, Walmart or something.

 

[minor4th]

He had sex with a man? How did I miss that?

Not sure how reliable that is. One of the sexters said Ross told her he hooked up with a man from a dating app.

 

[Hope4More]

This has been discussed many times. And I agree the numbers do not add up to 33 inches. Yet that comes from the ME Office and there has not been an amended. After Lumpkin went over the numbers line by line, Dr. Frist affirming each, on ReDirect Evans came up and asked Dr. Frist something about numbers. Pointed out something on the paper, a typo but it was hard to hear because Evans hit the mic on accident. He asked the jury if they understood and said ok I see yall shaking your heads. The ME Assistant is who did those measurements. Again if it is incorrect they had not been point out or changed until the Def brought up the matter in court.

Something else, in the AR Dr Frist himself writes the temp that day was 90s, but his testimony .. he said one thing that really bothered him was that he was told that the temp inside the car was 90s. Lumpkin .. oh really who told you that... Dr. Frist didn't remember but it really bothered him. So there is that. *conflicting testimony by witness.

I try hard to block out the specifics of any victim's death, this one especially, but as a FWIW, I've begin reading up on hot car deaths, etc and came across 2 factoids that seem relevant, not sure if similar info was brought up in ME testimony.

-- children's bodies heat up (on average) 5x faster than adult bodies (a key variable not taken into account whatsoever in the car temp recreation)

-- the temp in cars can leap up as much as 20 degrees within a span of 10 minutes.

 

[tlcya]

Some speculate Cooper was awake, some that he was asleep. Either could be correct. Things have gotten a bit heated in the discussion about those theories.

None of us knows the answer to that question. None of us will convince one another of the rightness or wrongness of either theory. Agree to disagree and move on.

 

[minor4th]

Lol. Maybe because it was slid in sideways, mentioned in a text from Ms Meadows the motive to RH, iirc.

I don't think it was Meadows. One of the earlier witnesses I believe.

 

[minor4th]

I'm reading up on hot car deaths and FBS. Anyone have recommendations for good (fact based) sources? TIA

There is not a ton of scholarly research. Mostly from David Diamond.

 

[Hope4More]

Not sure how reliable that is. One of the sexters said Ross told her he hooked up with a man from a dating app.

Good point. But the defense didn't dispute it, iirc, though maybe that was a strategic decision to not give an extraneous, irrelevant assertion any weight by glomming onto it....

 

[Rocco]

Speaking for myself, I don't like liars and dishonest people in general , and I really really don't like them when IMO they have abused their position of trust and power. That made watching Stoddard (in particular) getting shredded on the stand very satisfying -not "joyful"- indeed.

Beyond that, I follow trials largely because I'm interested in the law and most everything that is connected. Watching a gifted trial attorney in court is intellectually exhilarating, can't get enough of it, and there have been crosses by Kilgore that genuinely are, imo, real works of art, as in, exquisite demonstrations of his various lawyer's skills.

I must have missed any posts of yours that state anything negative about the defense and in turn, anything positive about the prosecution. (Because there aren't any) No matter what is presented about the person responsible for the death of Cooper, you always have an excuse for him.

He was in such close proximity to Cooper and didn't see him? -----> He wasn't looking in that direction

He had just eaten breakfast with Cooper, Cooper had been active in CF, he had just put him in the car seat and forgot about him?---> Cooper fell asleep

He didn't remember to drop him off minutes after he left CF---->RH was tired

The police immediately got the impression something was off about RH?------> They jumped to the wrong conclusion

Leanna was more concerned about getting an attorney than she was about her dead child?-------> She was smart

The judge allowed the jurors to look at a piece of the evidence that had been admitted, the car-------> She should not have allowed that and it's grounds for an appeal

And there are plenty more examples.

It's one thing to look at the legal aspects of the case and have an opinion as to whether the rights of the defendant are being preserved and another to be totally one sided while claiming to be objective and factual.

Me? I'm one sided and favor the prosecution. You? You're one sided and favor the defense.

Me? I'll admit it. You? Will not admit it.