trial thread: 3/30/2012

[Alethea Dice]

Wait wasn't the CD cover with the writing TM's writing, I believe she testified to writing that. I am also sure I read the writing on the cigarette box or whatever it is is carols's writing. I will look for articles when not on my iPod.

Jmo

The CD liner was in TM's writing, but I don't remember anyone ever stating who wrote on the cigarette package.

In McClintic's house, jurors heard, police found McDonald and Goris' phone number written on a liner note from a 2003 hip hop CD called Cheers by rapper Obie Trice.

McDonald testified the handwriting was her own.

"I left it there to discuss the dogs."

Police also found part of a cigarette package, with the same phone number, and the address 647 Frances St. That's the residence McDonald and Goris moved to in early April 2009.

McDonald testified she didn't recognize that handwriting as either hers or her partner's.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/03/07/toris-mom-to-take-the-stand

 

[Jezbel]

:moo:How someone acts in the prisoner's box can say volumes to the jury. Rolling eyes, scowling, mouthing stuff, is drama and shows immaturity. If he's innocent, the evidence or lack of evidence will get him off. An accused should show he is listening attentively to everything that pertains to his case, after all this is all about him. So throwing in the drama and facial expressions is going to be noticed by the jurors, and could have a negative impact on his case for sure. If this is a typical courtroom set up with a prisoner box, MR is in direct line of the jurors view. It is deliberately set up this way so the jurors can see him and his reactions. I am really surprised his team has not spoken to him about his behaviour. Then again, maybe they don't care MHO.

Right that's what I was saying, I find it interesting as I am sure the jurors do. I don't think we can't say what is a right way and wrong way to act in the box because then it wouldn't be their own reactions to things

Jmo

 

[antiquegirl]

Just a question....why would they still have this ban on TLMs statement of Facts now that the trial is on?

Good question. If you read the edited version (which is all we can read), anything and everything that would refer to MTR has been left out. This was to ensure that he would get a fair trial. I'm guessing that some of those statements have now come out at the trial, but not all. As the trial progresses and more evidence is seen and heard, the rest of what she said back then will emerge and the ban will be lifted. However, since TLM has recanted at least some of those original claims (like who actually murdered Tori) in January 2012, that SoF is pretty much worthless, as some crucial parts are no longer considered "facts". It will be up to the judge when the ban will be lifted in its entirety.

JMHO

 

[Ardy]

Need some help with some questions..........

If there was a heavy snowfall 2 days before the abduction, was it ever established if the farm lane was plowed out before MR and TLM drove down it?

Is the farm lane wide enough to turn a car around at any point?

Were there high snowbanks along the highway?

Did MR have snow tires on his car, performance tires, or all season radials?

Is there any reference to any bathroom breaks in the hours that MR and TLM had VS with them?

Did BA give a description of the clothes MR was wearing that day?

I have read some articles that refer to 2 different drug debts. One was a drug debt that had accumulated to $400 and the other refers to JG "ripping someone off". Do we know if there was 2 debts?

There was also a reference somewhere about a statement attributed to CM about Brad/Brian was going to get beat up.........or something to that affect? Is there some connection there with the JG drug debt?

Thanks

 

[matou]

Where does the info about MR being in the front seat with no pants on come from in the first place? I know I read that the horn went off at the point of the rape and MR yelled at TLM to do something.

CityCynthia Cynthia Mulligan
#Rafferty - Mcclintic says she walked away from car, ten, 15 feet. Heard what was going on. " Noises". Yells. Voices.

CityCynthia Cynthia Mulligan
#Rafferty - Mcclintic says she heard - long pause- tori scream and Mike yell for me to do something.

and

McClintic takes a long pause before describing what she heard.

McClintic says she saw #rafferty in the backseat of his car.

FavoritedFavorite · Close Open Details McClintic says she got out of the vehicle and walked about 10 to 15 feet away towards a field

#Rafferty - Mcclintic says she heard - long pause- tori scream and Mike yell for me to do something

McClintic - I heard things in front seat, at one point horn was hurt. She turned, says she saw both getting into back seat.
by citycynthia via twitter 2:50 PM

McClintic says she witnessed sexual assault #rafferty

McClintic says she saw Tori on mike's lap - he was trying to molest her. - note: I will not say her next sentence, too graphic.

tori naked from waist down

jmo

 

[Confusedashell]

Need some help with some questions..........

If there was a heavy snowfall 2 days before the abduction, was it ever established if the farm lane was plowed out before MR and TLM drove down it?

Is the farm lane wide enough to turn a car around at any point?

Were there high snowbanks along the highway?

Did MR have snow tires on his car, performance tires, or all season radials?

Is there any reference to any bathroom breaks in the hours that MR and TLM had VS with them?

Did BA give a description of the clothes MR was wearing that day?

I have read some articles that refer to 2 different drug debts. One was a drug debt that had accumulated to $400 and the other refers to JG "ripping someone off". Do we know if there was 2 debts?

There was also a reference somewhere about a statement attributed to CM about Brad/Brian was going to get beat up.........or something to that affect? Is there some connection there with the JG drug debt?

Thanks

The lane way is pretty narrow, I don't think there would be room to turn around until you get to the top where it turns to the left and where the body was discovered. JMO. I kind of recall in the photos of MR's car it looked like he had snow tires on, but saying that his car I believed was lowered to the ground and I find it hard to believe he was able to get up that laneway without getting stuck. Unless there wasn't much snow in the lane way. I very much doubt that it was plowed. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

Right that's what I was saying, I find it interesting as I am sure the jurors do. I don't think we can't say what is a right way and wrong way to act in the box because then it wouldn't be their own reactions to things

Jmo

Heeney:

#Rafferty Chgs are NOT evidence. Only witness testimony or exhbits are evidence.

It would be only human nature for the jurors to notice MTR's facial expressions and body language during the trial, but if they were truly fair, they will follow the judge's instructions to only take into account the testimony and exhibits when considering their verdict.

I'm trying to stay impartial, but personally, I have not read any Tweets or articles that have influenced me one way or the other based on MTR's behaviour during the trial. If I attempt to put myself in his position (ugh!), I see his reactions as involuntary and natural. i.e. In some cases he looked interested; in others where he had already seen photo exhibits, he appeared bored. (As was I! I could barely stay awake when they kept showing the same pictures multiple times.) When TLM testified to events that he disagreed with or was surprised at, he frowned and shook his head. (I would do the same if I were unable to speak and someone was telling lies about me.) Had he not looked away during the crime scene pics, I'm sure some people would interpret that as him getting a thrill from reliving the alleged events.

No matter what he does, some will see what they want to see. Even when he appeared to be crying, people put their own spin on it. Personally, I give him credit for acting as well-behaved as he has been. He has not had any verbal outbursts or extreme reactions. I doubt there'd be anything his attorneys could object to or caution him about ... so far.

When the jury deliberates, I'd hope that they will be discussing the evidence (as instructed) and not any emotional reaction they might have had to MTR's frowning or looking sleepy. All 12 of them would have to agree that these were indicators of guilt or innocence, which seems highly unlikely. Here is hoping that the evidence speaks for itself and a just verdict is reached based on that alone.

JMO

 

[matou]

Interesting that TLM needed some time to come back and make her claim aka version 2 of what happened. There was a 20 minute recess before she claims that she killed Tori on March 13th. JMO

 

[Ardy]

Hard to figure out with those tweets, but it sounds like TLM claims MR was in the front seat, but they made the horn sound, so they moved to the back seat.

Didn't she testify that the back of the car was covered with water bottles?

Did anyone ever ask her how many water bottles, where they were located, did they drink any of them when they were driving around?

I also wonder if LE ever asked any of his friends, if he normally drove around with a bunch of water bottles in the back seat area.

 

[Wondergirl]

Thank-you, London Free Press, for your excellent coverage of Victoria's Trial.

Jury Crime Scene Guidebook:

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/30/19573076.html

Sorry to quote myself, but, wanted to show all the pics again.

In reviewing the Jury Guidebook today, I am struck by how far away "H" (recovery location) is from "D" (rock pile).

Also, I am struck by how far away "E" is from everything, the location where it is possible to view both sets of silos.

Location "E" appears to be the location TLM said she seen both sets of silo's, "F" being the Southwesterly Silos and "G" the Northwesterly Silos.

It is very clear now why the Crown wants the Jurors to go there, when you look at these pictures, and get a sense of what you can see and from which locations.

Has it been said at which location the car was parked and/or the murder occured? I am speculating it at location "C", at the bend.

It says on the map to look for the fence at location "C", if possible, in other words, I don't think you can see the fence at location "C", so, therefore TLM must have walked further up the laneway at some point.

JMO

 

[Confusedashell]

Hard to figure out with those tweets, but it sounds like TLM claims MR was in the front seat, but they made the horn sound, so they moved to the back seat.

Didn't she testify that the back of the car was covered with water bottles?

Did anyone ever ask her how many water bottles, where they were located, did they drink any of them when they were driving around?

I also wonder if LE ever asked any of his friends, if he normally drove around with a bunch of water bottles in the back seat area.

I recall someone on here and it might have been at the very beg before the trial even started, that his back seat was always missing and he had speakers back there and kept a whole bunch of clothes. I could be wrong but I vaguely remember reading this on one of the post from the beg.

 

[Jezbel]

Interesting that TLM needed some time to come back and make her claim aka version 2 of what happened. There was a 20 minute recess before she claims that she killed Tori on March 13th. JMO

It was the afternoon recess.

 

[antiquegirl]

BBM

The CD cover was written by Tara M as she testified to. Just trying to keep the facts straight.

Oops, you're absolutely right. I meant to write "TM", but slipped up. A bit scary how one letter can make such a difference. Sorry about that!

 

[matou]

It was the afternoon recess.

Here is the sequence of tweets. She got the recess because it was requested JMO:

CityCynthia Cynthia Mulligan
#Rafferty - McClintic "flashbacks triggered something in my mind. I started feeling rage and anger. "

CityCynthia Cynthia Mulligan
#Rafferty - says she could see Tori on his lap. Crown: what did you do next? Pause.

CityCynthia Cynthia Mulligan
#Rafferty - Mcclintic "I need a minute". Afternoon recess. 20 minutes.

 

[Ardy]

The reason I am wondering the answers to all of these questions, is to examine as closely as possible with the information we have, the defense theory that was intimated during the cross examination of TLM.

Once established, the defense can't very well start to alter parts of it to fit, if a glaring hole is discovered in the theory. The theory is out there and they can't very well go to plan B now without losing all credibility.

If we poke around the details of the defense theory, we may learn something.

For example............the important question of why they were in that farm lane is disputed by TLM and MR.

TLM claims one reason........MR another.

Is it plausible that MR turned into that lane so that TLM could calm VS down.....and why then did he end up at the very end of the lane?

Did he notice the lane because the highway was plowed and there was a break in the snowbanks there? Did he think it was a wider road......drove in.....and then drive down the lane looking for a place to turn around?

If he hadn't had a bathroom break for 3 hours or more, is it plausible he would leave the car and walk away into the bushes somewhere?

Lots of questions..........too few answers. Maybe they are still to come.

 

[nettie_82]

Interesting that TLM needed some time to come back and make her claim aka version 2 of what happened. There was a 20 minute recess before she claims that she killed Tori on March 13th. JMO

During that recess I sincerely hope the accused and the convicted were not held anywhere close to each other!!

 

[matou]

Here's another tweet right before her claims:

RaffertyLFP:
Court in recess for 20 minutes because McClintic is unable to continue answering apparently overcome by emotion

 

[Jezbel]

It would be only human nature for the jurors to notice MTR's facial expressions and body language during the trial, but if they were truly fair, they will follow the judge's instructions to only take into account the testimony and exhibits when considering their verdict.

I'm trying to stay impartial, but personally, I have not read any Tweets or articles that have influenced me one way or the other based on MTR's behaviour during the trial. If I attempt to put myself in his position (ugh!), I see his reactions as involuntary and natural. i.e. In some cases he looked interested; in others where he had already seen photo exhibits, he appeared bored. (As was I! I could barely stay awake when they kept showing the same pictures multiple times.) When TLM testified to events that he disagreed with or was surprised at, he frowned and shook his head. (I would do the same if I were unable to speak and someone was telling lies about me.) Had he not looked away during the crime scene pics, I'm sure some people would interpret that as him getting a thrill from reliving the alleged events.

No matter what he does, some will see what they want to see. Even when he appeared to be crying, people put their own spin on it. Personally, I give him credit for acting as well-behaved as he has been. He has not had any verbal outbursts or extreme reactions. I doubt there'd be anything his attorneys could object to or caution him about ... so far.

When the jury deliberates, I'd hope that they will be discussing the evidence (as instructed) and not any emotional reaction they might have had to MTR's frowning or looking sleepy. All 12 of them would have to agree that these were indicators of guilt or innocence, which seems highly unlikely. Here is hoping that the evidence speaks for itself and a just verdict is reached based on that alone.

JMO

People will put their own spin on it because it is their interpretation of his reactions. I don't think the jury will base their verdict on his composure and actions in the prisoner box, I'm sure they will use facts and evidence presented to base their thoughts on. One of the reasons I myself have gone a few times now, not only to hear but to see the evidence and everything for myself to base my opinions off.
He did however look at pictures being shown yesterday, before they broke for lunch. As slides were being shown he would look briefly then away, either to the witness on the stand, his defence team etc, you could tell he was uncomfortable yesterday, whether that shows guilt or innocence is not for me to say and I will not base it off what he does in the prisoner box.

JMO

 

[luvtenniss]

I am sorry if this is a repeat question and already discussed in detail. I just couldn't find it. Do we know who owns the house they brought Tori to that night? Just wondering if the owners have said anything, or if a relationship between them and MR or TLM has been established.

 

[Ardy]

I recall someone on here and it might have been at the very beg before the trial even started, that his back seat was always missing and he had speakers back there and kept a whole bunch of clothes. I could be wrong but I vaguely remember reading this on one of the post from the beg.

Wow.........if that were true that MR never had a backseat, what were they cutting chunks out of and throwing out the window? (as per TLM)

What was he sitting on when he moved from the front seat to the back seat and had VS on his lap? (as per TLM)

I would have to think that the defense team would have talked to any of MR's friends who have been in his car. A reliable witness who would testify there was never a backseat...........would cause real problems with all of TLM's testimony.