trial thread: 3/30/2012

[Wondergirl]

More details on the details of Smyth scouting the area.

But by July that year, though Det.-Sgt. Smyth had been seconded to the Tori task force for three months, he was involved in another investigation when he learned that as a result of a search warrant executed on Mr. Rafferty’s cellphone, records appeared to show the phone had been used near Mt. Forest on the very day Tori vanished.

The town was just a little north of the vast area of southwestern Ontario that police had already searched; McClintic had run out of landmarks she recognized, and that was where the northern boundary of the search was established.

Det.-Sgt. Smyth got the call on July 17.

On July 18, he was working in the Woodstock office, and drove back up to Orillia and OPP headquarters.

He was on his way back to Woodstock on the Sunday, July 19, when on an impulse, he decided to get off the 400 Highway at Highway 89, and drive across to Mt. Forest.

There was to be a task force meeting early that week but he wasn’t going to be able to make it, and he figured he’d take a tour of the area, get a sense of the landscape, so he could give his colleagues his assessment on “What is our best bet here” to start the new search.

He drove up a couple of roads, scoping out the area, then crossed over Highway 6 and north onto the Concession 6 side road.

“Ms. McClintic was very sure the location was off a big concession road,” he said.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ch-led-jim-smyth-to-find-tori-staffords-body/

 

[tmhco]

Gosh, she really changes her mind a lot. This is quite the switch from the May 19th interview we all saw, and even more of a switch from the testimony she gave.
No mention of the sexual assault during this interview either, I wonder if she recanted and then changed her mind about that too? Imagine what that would have done to the Crown's case.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ords-body-rafferty-trial-told/article2387154/

You would think the defense would have brought that up under cross? I also think she was terrified to testify. Her past is vile to say the least.

First time poster, please be kind!

 

[daisy.faithfull]

You would think the defense would have brought that up under cross? I also think she was terrified to testify. Her past is vile to say the least.

First time poster, please be kind!

Welcome tmhco!

 

[Ardy]

I see what you're saying, but I think a decomposing body would be more odiferous than the soiled pants.

MOO

I was thinking in the terms of the immediate aftermath of what must have been a very frenzied attempt to hide all the evidence.

I must say, that I was struck by the crime set photos on how far back the farm lane went...........and really have to wonder if MR was stopping the car so that TLM could talk to VS...........why did he need to drive so far back just to do that?

Another thought I had, was that my in-laws were grain farmers in Saskatchewan. The one thing I know is that farmers have a tendency to check their land..........all the time.

Unless they were busy planting or harvesting, on the vacations we took out there we would go drive around the land several times a day..........just for something to do and to keep an eye on the land.

This crime took place in the early evening, but how did MR know that someone from the house across the street didn't see him turn into the lane and wonder what he was doing there? How did he know that he had the time or safety to do everything that was alleged and not have the farmer drive up the lane in his truck? How did he know that he wouldn't run into the farmer on the way out........or be spotted coming out of the lane?

All the speculation about pre-planniing just doesn't add up when considering what actually happened.........the chances they took driving around and stopping in public places......and then driving down the lane.

Something seems to be missing.

 

[Ardy]

No one said that missing pants equals rape but if you were a detective called to the scene of a murder and the female victim did not have their pants on wouldn't you be more likely to think that she had been raped than if her pants were on?

Or would you be more likely to think the murderer didn't want her possibly sticky drawers to draw attention?

Yes, the suspicion of rape would be the first thing that crossed my mind.

It is up to the Crown to prove the case, but if the defense has a better explanation they better come out with it at some point.

 

[Ardy]

Welcome...........

 

[Tahorn]

It isnt a secret that TLM is a vindictive malicious evil thing that was known to be violent and vengeful to all those who crossed her. Her letters and that gawd awful song sound a lot like her confession/testimony. Now don't get me wrong MR should be punished for his involvement in the events of Tori's last hours including her death ... But was he the child rapist and criminal mastermind able to mulipulate a street wise wannabe gang member to do his bidding ...

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Yes, the suspicion of rape would be the first thing that crossed my mind.

It is up to the Crown to prove the case, but if the defense has a better explanation they better come out with it at some point.

I understand it is up to the crown to prove their case, but every little detail counts. And yes, there needs to be a lot more than just missing pants for a jury to convict on a sexual assault charge. But just because evidence doesn't clearly point to one scenario or another doesn't mean it should be dismissed.

Even the smallest pieces of evidence helps to build a case to the point where if one uses their common sense and looks at all of the evidence together, even if there is no smoking gun, I think it is very easy to say beyond a reasonable doubt what happened. So don't dismiss the small stuff. We don't know what's to come.

 

[maxfactor]

Sorry if this has already been posted.

OPP Det. Staff Sgt. Jim Smyth has faced down murderers and elicited confessions of horrible crimes without allowing a breach of his controlled, calm demeanour.

In a London courtroom Friday, he spoke with the same measured manner to jurors as he does in videotaped interviews of killers.

It took him considerable effort, however, to keep his composure at the memory of finding a little girl's body in a lonely place, under a rock pile under an evergreen tree July 19, 2009.

"I walked over to the closest tree to the rock pile. I pulled one of the branches back and I observed some rocks . . . right beside the tree trunk," Smyth testified. He paused for 11 quiet seconds before continuing.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/30/19573966.html

 

[brighidin]

You would think the defense would have brought that up under cross? I also think she was terrified to testify. Her past is vile to say the least.

First time poster, please be kind!

:welcome5:

 

[swedie]

I wonder if MR made up the story of running into Bloodshot Eyed Brad. Perhaps he was trying to turn the heat off of him and onto others that he knew of that were around TLM...just a thought!

This note was found at CM's place right? Has it been stated who wrote this? If not, we are safe to assume MR could have wrote it himself and left it at CM's house. MR did smoke and that looks like a flap from a cigarette package. MR has admitted to LE in his interview he had been in CM's house. It's a possibility MR planted it in CM's house. Maybe it was found in TLM's bedroom. It does not look at all like TLM handwriting. :moo:

 

[Alethea Dice]

Gosh, she really changes her mind a lot. This is quite the switch from the May 19th interview we all saw, and even more of a switch from the testimony she gave.
No mention of the sexual assault during this interview either, I wonder if she recanted and then changed her mind about that too? Imagine what that would have done to the Crown's case.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ords-body-rafferty-trial-told/article2387154/

Interesting point. Would it not make sense that she would still have to testify regarding the sexual assault?

 

[swedie]

:seeya:Hi Swedie,
The part I colored in blue up above confused me at first. I think you meant to say that the defense is not denying that MR WAS present right? If I have misunderstood, your post somehow, pls clarify for me. I kinda thought that was the whole premise of their pitiful defense, that he was there and walked away from the car while Tori was murdered then helped clean up the mess and the body.

Incidentally, the defense kinda reminds me of something I once heard a doctor tell his receptionist:
"So this girl came in, and she looked pregnant, so being her doctor, I asked if she was sexually active. The girl looked at me and with a dead straight face said, 'no, I just lie there'!!". I'm sure the doctor was just telling a joke to his staff member, but still, the point seems the same to me when compared to this case. MR didn't do anything, he just stood there. :banghead:
:seeya:

Oops yes you are correct Delaware! That's what happens when I was in the middle of a post and my grandbabies showed up for an overnight visit. I was being smothered in kissies and hugs. Went shopping, supper out and a movie, wore them right out, they're snuggled like little bugs in bed, now and I can get back to business here on WS lol.

Thank you for catching that. Yes the defense is pitiful indeed. They, once again,...sigh...had nothing to ask the witnesses. Sheesh, they have had almost three years to prepare to defend MR. Then again maybe they're not trying to? Wouldn't be the first case a defense attorney knew his/her client wasn't going to get off due to evidence. :cow:

:floorlaugh your joke, thanks I believe we all needed a good laugh Deleware. :blowkiss:

 

[antiquegirl]

This note was found at CM's place right? Has it been stated who wrote this? If not, we are safe to assume MR could have wrote it himself and left it at CM's house. MR did smoke and that looks like a flap from a cigarette package. MR has admitted to LE in his interview he had been in CM's house. It's a possibility MR planted it in CM's house. Maybe it was found in TLM's bedroom. It does not look at all like TLM handwriting. :moo:

Everybody here smoked - Carol, JG, Tara, TLM and probably MTR. (Actually, I'm not sure about MTR, as the pic of him smoking is years old.) It's definitely not TLM's writing. Normally, I would think that it would be JG or TM's writing on there, but the crossed-out "Brad" makes me think it was Carol. It seems like JG and/or TM were at the house, either talked dog breeding or bought Oxys, and asked Carol to take their address and phone number for future reference. Carol got confused, wrote "Brad" instead of "James", crossed it out, and then got it right.

Why would MTR plant this at Carol's house? It was common knowledge that TM was already a suspect in her daughter's disappearance. The rumour was all over town and TM herself verified that she had met Carol to talk about breeding the dogs. There was no need to plant this and he'd never have made the "Brad" mistake. There was also the CD with the same info on it in TLM's handwriting.

If I'm not mistaken, TM has denied writing this. That only leaves James and Carol and my money is on Carol.

JMHO

McDonald was herself a suspect and widely crucified by the media. Many of the rumours then bruited about the woman were confirmed in her courtroom testimony

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

 

[swedie]

Gosh, she really changes her mind a lot. This is quite the switch from the May 19th interview we all saw, and even more of a switch from the testimony she gave.
No mention of the sexual assault during this interview either, I wonder if she recanted and then changed her mind about that too? Imagine what that would have done to the Crown's case.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ords-body-rafferty-trial-told/article2387154/

TLM is talking about the murder part, not the sexual assault. She said she didn't want him to get the murder charge. A life sentence :moo: A sexual assault charge is not life, sometimes only months. In this case though, it would be a life sentence because Tori died while abducted and sexual assaulted. HTH MOO

The sentencing of the accused, if convicted, depends on the severity of circumstances and the presence and details of the accused's prior criminal history. The Crown Prosecutor decides whether to proceed summarily or by indictable. Summary conviction is a less serious route and will carry a lesser punishment than an indictable. The Code specifies the possible sentences for sexual assault as follows:
271. (1) Every one who commits a sexual assault is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding eighteen months.

These are the maximums for both a summary and indictable prosecution. Keep in mind an assailant can receive much less of a sentences that the prescribed maximums. See our sentencing table for information on real sentences given to assailant's based on particular prior records and circumstances.

Please note, in circumstances of aggravated sexual assault a stricter penalty is possible.

http://www.sexassault.ca/criminalprocess.htm

 

[Alethea Dice]

TLM is talking about the murder part, not the sexual assault. She said she didn't want him to get the murder charge. A life sentence :moo: A sexual assault charge is not life, sometimes only months. In this case though, it would be a life sentence because Tori died while abducted and sexual assaulted. HTH MOO

The sentencing of the accused, if convicted, depends on the severity of circumstances and the presence and details of the accused's prior criminal history. The Crown Prosecutor decides whether to proceed summarily or by indictable. Summary conviction is a less serious route and will carry a lesser punishment than an indictable. The Code specifies the possible sentences for sexual assault as follows:
271. (1) Every one who commits a sexual assault is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding eighteen months.

These are the maximums for both a summary and indictable prosecution. Keep in mind an assailant can receive much less of a sentences that the prescribed maximums. See our sentencing table for information on real sentences given to assailant's based on particular prior records and circumstances.

Please note, in circumstances of aggravated sexual assault a stricter penalty is possible.

http://www.sexassault.ca/criminalprocess.htm

But first she said that she was speaking up now because she didn't want to testify. She would still have to testify regardless of the sentence. JMO

Asked why she was speaking up now, she told him it was because she didn’t want to testify at Mr. Rafferty’s upcoming trial.

 

[snoofer]

I'd be afraid of TLM even if she only had a freaking q-tip.

But I'm just saying that either way the cops would get to TLM via MTR through his direct or indirect statements, so she'd be after him either way. He would be the first person she would think of as the snitch, no matter what reason LE gave her for their interest in her.

q-tip:floorlaugh:

 

[flipflop]

Funny how he's directing the cops to people who could possibly implicate him, ie; TLM and CM. Why would he do that if he was trying to take the heat off himself?

Just for a second, pretend you believe the defence's suggestion of what happened that day, (I know it will be difficult, lol) if TLM told MR that she took Tori because of a drug debt, and if the woman, Amanda, that he was seeing was telling him the same thing, wouldn't it make sense for MR to tell the cops that info about TM and JG having a drug debt?

MOO

he did....(snipped from MR's interview)

I think Terri-Lynne hangs around a lot of bad people or a lot of druggies or a lot of messed up people and they all talk and shesaid the word is that you know she’s into drugs or owes a lot of money for drugs just stupid **** like that that you hear so

 

[dilbert]

he did....(snipped from MR's interview)

I think Terri-Lynne hangs around a lot of bad people or a lot of druggies or a lot of messed up people and they all talk and shesaid the word is that you know she’s into drugs or owes a lot of money for drugs just stupid **** like that that you hear so

I know he did, I was trying to explain WHY he would tell the cop that and why it would make sense that he would.

 

[snoofer]

If the cops are being told that Tori was taken because of a drug debt, wouldn't you think they would bring that up with TM and JG to find out who they owed? Find out who they are in debt to, find the kidnapper/killer. If TM and JG owed the debt to TLM, that would lead the cops to her, and in turn, lead the cops to MR.

Yes, I think he was trying to cover his *advertiser censored* in that interview, but I believe he was also trying to lead the cops to TLM without having to implicate himself.
That's my opinion and interpretation, only time will tell.

MOO

I think a lot of criminals like to tell half-truths and embellish creating a fog of deception. IMO