GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #4

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KuriousKev said:
Depends on who you ask! So....

"Well I just have to say her friends quote about women in Istanbul is ON!"
Click to expand...

Yes it does depend on who you ask.....it changes when you ask people who have actually been there.....and when you ask people who have never been there.

But who do you think is going to have a more accurate perspective of Turkey....those who have been there....or those who have not?

As someone who has been there, and lived there, as an American female.....I'm stating that her comments are NOT based in reality.

Only about 30% of women in Istanbul cover their hair. And within that 30% the degree to which their heads are covered varies.
 
I've been out in Taksim today and by chance found myself very near to the street where Sarai was staying. To get from there to Istiklal Street (the main street, where the shopping centre she was seen at is), she would have had to go through a creepy passage that goes underneath a busy road. After that there's a street where lots of men are hanging out on the street. Not a very nice place to walk around as a woman. In any case, it occurred to me that after two weeks of facing that creepy passage and walking the gauntlet of men every day, walking along the seaside would have felt lovely and open, uncrowded and refreshing. Starting to believe that Sarai may well have gone up the walls of her own free will.

Also, I don't believe there is any chance at all that her body was taken on a train.
 
http://www.panoramio.com/m/photo/35880596

Image from a non touristy mall in Istanbul, its called Istinye Park.

Please notice how the people are dressed.....please notice the percentage of head scarfed and non head scarfed women....

Looks like any mall in America....actually probably nicer.

This is how most people dress in Istanbul every day.
 
ThinkHard said:
Yes it does depend on who you ask.....it changes when you ask people who have actually been there.....and when you ask people who have never been there.

But who do you think is going to have a more accurate perspective of Turkey....those who have been there....or those who have not?

As someone who has been there, and lived there, as an American female.....I'm stating that her comments are NOT based in reality.

Only about 30% of women in Istanbul cover their hair. And within that 30% the degree to which their heads are covered varies.
Click to expand...

I was actually speaking of stories I've read from women who actually live there. I bet for every women born and raised in Turkey who denies oppression, there will be another who agrees oppression exist. This debate can go on and on and on..

As an American female visitor, whether long term or not, you will NOT experience the same issues native women are experiencing. You are a tourist, a visitor, an American you will not be treated the same.
 
delal said:
I've been out in Taksim today and by chance found myself very near to the street where Sarai was staying. To get from there to Istiklal Street (the main street, where the shopping centre she was seen at is), she would have had to go through a creepy passage that goes underneath a busy road. After that there's a street where lots of men are hanging out on the street. Not a very nice place to walk around as a woman. In any case, it occurred to me that after two weeks of facing that creepy passage and walking the gauntlet of men every day, walking along the seaside would have felt lovely and open, uncrowded and refreshing. Starting to believe that Sarai may well have gone up the walls of her own free will.

Also, I don't believe there is any chance at all that her body was taken on a train.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for taking the time to check that out. It's very useful to have a personal description as to why the area was so bad.

That's undoubtedly also why the apartment was so cheap.

Also reflects a rookie mistake- paying in advance for your full rental. You have a financial loss to incur if you don't like where you've stayed. Unless it was a very well recommended and easily verified great deal, I would never ever pay for the entire 17 nights lodging IN ADVANCE.
Lots of other lodgings to find.

ITA about the train. Not plausible.
 
KuriousKev said:
Depends on who you ask! So....

"Well I just have to say her friends quote about women in Istanbul is ON!"

*************************************************

Not related but maybe... found this story interesting! Scary too

warnings for women, Istanbul
http://www.virtualtourist.com/trave...Dangers-Istanbul-warnings_for_women-BR-1.html
Click to expand...

Thank you...very interesting comments...especially this one:

PLEASE WARNING TO FOREIGN WOMEN VISITING ISTANBUL !!!

(sorry for bad translation, I will appreciate if somebody correct it and translate to other languages)

Western tourist women who will visit Istanbul should be careful when going to the restaurants area near Divanyolu street. This place is full of pimps and bon vivants who are always trying to seduce mature women to get information, e.g. where does she come from, what hotel and room will she stay at, how much people travel in her group, how long will she stay in Istanbul and much more. After that, they get into the hotel room in collusion with hotel employees to rob women belongings or try to get additional information (address, credit cards, name of her husband and so on).

Any foreign woman in Turkey should be suspicious when a stranger go out with her with much familiarity or touch her hair or skin (included neck, back, arms or legs), because in Islamic countries this is never considered correct unless the woman is seen as a prostitute or an "desperate-for-sex-mature-woman", in which case the pimp will try to exploit this to his own benefit, often drugging, raping, robbing or blackmailing to her husband and local authorities and stealing her belongings. If a woman agrees to be touched by a stranger, he will think it's a sure sign that she is desperate for sex and even she could pay him for it. These pimps often act in collusion with employees of bars and hotels in Sultanahmet and sit at the tables of foreign mature women who they think are desperate looking for sex in order to cheat them.

The pimp will try to start a conversation with a foreign woman telling her he is divorced, he is a "BBB" (Big Business Boss) or perhaps the restaurant owner. Please understand modus operandi of pimps: Pimp will say he has a nice apartment not far from the restaurant, he likes to cook (perhaps for her) and he will be flirting with the foreign woman using subtle words and bawdy double meaning words. If the women continues the conversation they will think have got an easy victim. If you are really just looking for sex it would be better to try other alternatives because what these people want from you is just your money, and believe me, they could be very dangerous.

A foreigner woman visiting Turkey shouldn't never show her neck, neckline, belly button, back or legs if she doesn't want to be seen as a prostitute or a woman desperately looking for sex. Otherwise she could be victim of pimps who will take advantage of her. It's always recommended to travel with a man, do not accept drinks or any possible drug from strangers, don't start conversations with unknown men and never to give any information about you or your fellow travelers (including name, surname, room, hotel, phone, address, family, people who travel with her, departure dates and so on).

If you are planning to travel to Istanbul please be very careful with the restaurants in Alemdar, Türbedar, Boyaci Ahmet, Biçki Yurdu and Divanyolu streets because the police are receiving increasing reports of foreign women who have been seduced, raped, robbed and blackmailed in these places. Four months ago two foreign women (two different cases) were killed after been seduced in restaurants near Türdebar and Biçki Yurdu. They were taken to other places and raped, blackmailed and robbed. In other cases women were forced into prostitution after being drugged.

If you take these precautions and take care of pickpockets, for sure you will enjoy very much your trip to Istanbul and find it a very interesting city. Similar precautions are very convenient when you travel everywhere, not just Turkey. Turkish people is really nice and helpful, but you know, bad people are everywhere (sometimes they are foreigners) and you need to be careful because in Turkey it's not expected that women have the same behaviour than women in America or Western Europe. For your own safety, try to adapt your behavior to the customs of the country you are visiting.

If you are a British citizen and have been victim of rape or blackmail in Turkey please contact British Embassy in Ankara and follow their advices, here:

http://ukinturkey.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/when-things-go-wrong/rape-sexual-assult

Here you will find more resources:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_19980927/ai_n14478390/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/10/27/two-brit-sisters-in-hols-rape-115875-21776370/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/mar/25/theobserver2
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article3116584.ece

Sincerely,

Basir
 
I posted part of that on an earlier thread because it made me laugh so much.

As a foreign woman who's been living in Istanbul for almost five years, I'd say the reality falls somewhere between Think Hard's and "Basir's". At least the reality according to me.

I do pay more attention to my appearance here than I would back in my home country. Girls may wear tight jeans and not cover their heads but very few have cleavage on show or wear short skirts without tights. If they do, they do get stared at.
 
Lostinabook, welcome to Websleuths!
I attended a pentecostal rehearsal and wedding a few years back, at the rehearsal the preacher (?) was saying what he was going to say, "I pronounce you man and wife" and with that I raised and shook my hand like a crazy school girl trying to say the answer first. He looked at me and said "can I help you"?, and I said yes I think since he is a man as she is a woman shouldn't you say, "husband and wife" since that is what they will become? The next day when that time came for him to say, I now pronounce you, he said husband and wife but not before I got the eye.
 
KuriousKev said:
I was actually speaking of stories I've read from women who actually live there. I bet for every women born and raised in Turkey who denies oppression, there will be another who agrees oppression exist. This debate can go on and on and on..

As an American female visitor, whether long term or not, you will NOT experience the same issues native women are experiencing. You are a tourist, a visitor, an American you will not be treated the same.
Click to expand...

Fair. But we are talking about a case involving an American visitor to Turkey right? And not a Turkish citizen....

Additionally I lived with aTurkish/Muslim family.....so I have a much clearer and personal experience with Turkish culture then most visitors.

And finally I was commenting that her comments on women showing their hair being an issue as being WAY off.....which it is. Period. That's just not how it is in Istanbul.
 
stmarysmead said:
Thank you...very interesting comments...especially this one:

PLEASE WARNING TO FOREIGN WOMEN VISITING ISTANBUL !!!

(sorry for bad translation, I will appreciate if somebody correct it and translate to other languages)

Western tourist women who will visit Istanbul should be careful when going to the restaurants area near Divanyolu street. This place is full of pimps and bon vivants who are always trying to seduce mature women to get information, e.g. where does she come from, what hotel and room will she stay at, how much people travel in her group, how long will she stay in Istanbul and much more. After that, they get into the hotel room in collusion with hotel employees to rob women belongings or try to get additional information (address, credit cards, name of her husband and so on).

Any foreign woman in Turkey should be suspicious when a stranger go out with her with much familiarity or touch her hair or skin (included neck, back, arms or legs), because in Islamic countries this is never considered correct unless the woman is seen as a prostitute or an "desperate-for-sex-mature-woman", in which case the pimp will try to exploit this to his own benefit, often drugging, raping, robbing or blackmailing to her husband and local authorities and stealing her belongings. If a woman agrees to be touched by a stranger, he will think it's a sure sign that she is desperate for sex and even she could pay him for it. These pimps often act in collusion with employees of bars and hotels in Sultanahmet and sit at the tables of foreign mature women who they think are desperate looking for sex in order to cheat them.

The pimp will try to start a conversation with a foreign woman telling her he is divorced, he is a "BBB" (Big Business Boss) or perhaps the restaurant owner. Please understand modus operandi of pimps: Pimp will say he has a nice apartment not far from the restaurant, he likes to cook (perhaps for her) and he will be flirting with the foreign woman using subtle words and bawdy double meaning words. If the women continues the conversation they will think have got an easy victim. If you are really just looking for sex it would be better to try other alternatives because what these people want from you is just your money, and believe me, they could be very dangerous.

A foreigner woman visiting Turkey shouldn't never show her neck, neckline, belly button, back or legs if she doesn't want to be seen as a prostitute or a woman desperately looking for sex. Otherwise she could be victim of pimps who will take advantage of her. It's always recommended to travel with a man, do not accept drinks or any possible drug from strangers, don't start conversations with unknown men and never to give any information about you or your fellow travelers (including name, surname, room, hotel, phone, address, family, people who travel with her, departure dates and so on).

If you are planning to travel to Istanbul please be very careful with the restaurants in Alemdar, Türbedar, Boyaci Ahmet, Biçki Yurdu and Divanyolu streets because the police are receiving increasing reports of foreign women who have been seduced, raped, robbed and blackmailed in these places. Four months ago two foreign women (two different cases) were killed after been seduced in restaurants near Türdebar and Biçki Yurdu. They were taken to other places and raped, blackmailed and robbed. In other cases women were forced into prostitution after being drugged.

If you take these precautions and take care of pickpockets, for sure you will enjoy very much your trip to Istanbul and find it a very interesting city. Similar precautions are very convenient when you travel everywhere, not just Turkey. Turkish people is really nice and helpful, but you know, bad people are everywhere (sometimes they are foreigners) and you need to be careful because in Turkey it's not expected that women have the same behaviour than women in America or Western Europe. For your own safety, try to adapt your behavior to the customs of the country you are visiting.

If you are a British citizen and have been victim of rape or blackmail in Turkey please contact British Embassy in Ankara and follow their advices, here:

http://ukinturkey.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/when-things-go-wrong/rape-sexual-assult

Here you will find more resources:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_19980927/ai_n14478390/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/10/27/two-brit-sisters-in-hols-rape-115875-21776370/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/mar/25/theobserver2
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article3116584.ece

Sincerely,

Basir
Click to expand...

Some of this is true, some of this is highly exaggerated!

But this type of threat is easy to avoid as a female in Turkey as it would be any where else....don't let your guard down, and don't trust strangers. It's really that simple.
 
Nice to see members of the I-Team posting, ThinkHard and delal.
 
<<I would never ever pay for the entire 17 nights lodging IN ADVANCE.>>

I wouldn't either, but that's how Airbnb works. You don't even get the contact information for the person whose place you'll be living in until the full amount is paid up.

Of course SS could have chosen to stay somewhere that wasn't an Airbnb property, but they are usually the cheapest ones. A hostel would have been a better choice, but maybe just slightly more expensive.
 
ThinkHard said:
Well I just have to say her friends quote about women in Istanbul is OFF!

Sorry, I'm just so sick of hearing misinformation about Turkey....and for her friend to say that she wants to be educated and learn about places and then go on to say that Istanbul is a place where it matters if your hair shows!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr thinking that is NOT being educated....thinking that is listening to ridiculously biased and ignorant misconception about Turkey!!!!

I'm sorry this perceived "knowledge" which is really ignorance about Istanbul that keeps creeping into this entire story about Sarai....is the kind of ignorance that really makes me feel embarrassed sometimes to be American.

For the record it only about 30% of the entire female population in Istanbul that covers their hair!
Click to expand...


THIS. I was counting on one of the experts to comment on it with more rights than I possess. Thanks, ThinkHard. :furious:
 
That Youtube vid of alleged "Z" reminds me of someone jumping out of flames in Apocalypse Now movie. The person running out of woods sure appears phyically fit, living amongst the elements. Period.
 
english said:
I've linked to a still of Z and the fire. Any one able to put this location into context with the relevant caves?

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/22626043.asp
Click to expand...

Based upon that photo and the video, the fire is in the general area between Sarayburnu and where she was found. The last bit shows a large wall or pillar and it might either be a pillar of the Sarayburnu Street overpass, or maybe a support post farther south. Those electrical towers are seen all over the video of CSI investigators and the media walking along the train tracks that was posted many pages back.


I'm not seeing the big pillar in the aerial view that we have all seen in post #1650

http://istanbul.net.tr/img08/foto/sizin/buyuk/7/sarayburnu__uygarelmastasi.jpg

However, you can see the electrical towers on either side of the tracks.
 
I think the video of the fire and the still photo are taken from opposite directions.

The video taken looking south and the still taken looking north.

There is also a spur line rail visible on the inner curve. Maybe one can tell on a googleearth or an aerial where that spur line rail is. (A curving short set of tracks that splits off from the inner of the two main sets of railroad tracks.)
 
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