GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[ThinkHard]

Can we get off the issue of gold? It is a very insignificant point to this case. It speaks to motive, or the lack of theft being the motive, to be more precise.

We cannot apply a logical thought process on the part of the perp. It was obviously a case of uncontrolled rage probably brought on by anguished screams or raking finger nails across the face. Who knows what goes through that mind? If it were an illogical act would there then be logical follow-on thought about the scene and value of items?

Well that's just it. We do not know what the perps state of mind was to know whether he was thinking logically or illogically.

If he was thinking logically then there might just be a very particular reason why he took certain items of sarais and not others.

Undertstanding what these motives could or could not of been is a peice of understanding where the perps state of mind was.

In my opinion., logic points to it not being a focus on robbery. And the items taken were not for profit.

So why did he take the things he took? Why leave the other things? Was it personal? Is there more to this case then a crazy homeless man and a lost tourist? To me at least I think there is.

 

[Carmen29]

I have been following the board but was gone and I am way behind. So LE has solved the case? it was the homeless man Z? He killed her for her leather coat? That is just horrible to find out she died over a coat..
I am trying to piece this together on board but lots of discussions going on here... I am curious how/where he ran into her and how she got to the caves. Why would she go to the caves? Sorry if this has been answered already. Playing catch up.

 

[SophieRose]

New article on Z. It's suppose to be in English, but looks like they used Google translater.

http://www.habermonitor.com/en/haber/detay/let39s-go-find-before-the-cia/70017/

 

[delal]

So his brother's going to try and find him before the cops do.

If this guy really has got into Syria, I doubt he'll ever be found. After a life on the streets, he clearly has the capability to survive on little. Although would be much harder in another country I imagine, without the language/any contacts. Not to mention a country that's very unstable. This is a guy who knows what prison involves. Why would a life on the run in Syria be preferable to just giving himself up?

There's no death penalty in Turkey by the way.

 

[alabaster]

Even if it wasnt part of the motive, the choices in what the perp took and what he left I think are interesting.

Yes, they are. Sorry for being too dismissive earlier, I'm just disappointed by the bad quality of news reporting concerning the finer details of crime scene and objects found/not found there.

 

[alabaster]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbj
This is what I think transpired:

1. Too bad SS didn't keep her more androgynous look on the 21st, with her hair tucked into her unisex cap. She dress nicely since she had hoped to meet Taylan, and that is her on the video.

2. People had described her as adventurous. (Who among us would sleep on the couch of an instagram acquaintance in Amsterdam?) She was also trusting and naive. She thought, though , she was a good judge of character. Early on her minister described her as 9 going on 32 (or whatever her age is.) This trait alone led to her demise.

3. Perhaps Taylan had mentioned the night before about going to the walls and trying to get portraits of the people there.

4. She decided that since Taylan didn't show, today would be her last day to capture great photos.

5. She went to the walls and assumed it to be safe. It was daylight, and a traveled road. Perhaps she was on the other side of the road. Z appeared and seemed charming, safe, and cooperative. Perhaps he motioned kindly for her to come across the road. He may have motioned for her to come into his cave.She did not feel brave enough to do this, but she may have glanced in.

6. Z then pulls her in to rape her. He pulls down her pants. She is fighting back, but given her size ,she is not a challenge for him. But then she starts a loud piercing scream. He knew he must silence her. He has her on the ground, and his adrenaline and testosterone is flowing, and in his unstable fashion, he begins to pulverize her with the rock, he get carried away.

7. Later, Z moves the body away from his territory. Another scavenger comes upon the body and decides to remove the jewelry. He takes off her earrings and then looks for a wallet. He finds her driver's license and realizes she is the one that everyone is searching for. He drops the earrings and the license. He wants nothing to do with her, but now his fingerprints are on her.

8. Z flees to his homeland. While on the run, he sells her ipad and phone, which he took from her. In part for the value, but also because her last photos were of him. When he sells them, he asks for everything to be erased, which the buyer does, and it entails turning on the devices.

And that's the way I think it went down.
This is what I said yesterday, and still think it may be close to the truth. But now I think SS was relocated out of Z's cave by perhaps other homeless people that wanted to "frame" the killer.

Somehow I hadn't seen your original post. I'm almost 100 % behind this.

I'm developing a theory that it was not Taylan but herself who suggested the city walls, which will possibly explain his presumed reluctance to join her and her eagerness to go anyway. Will follow up in another post.

 

[Chewy]

I'm half Indian, have traveled all over the world, and have worked with foreign jewelers from every corner. I still can't understand the assertion that 14k gold is "junk" or, essentially worthless, in some parts of the world. This just plain isn't so.

In India, the gold people value and wear is almost exclusively 22k or 24k. But my dad still brings my mom's scrap gold (mostly 14k) to India every time he travels there because he can sell it in any gold shop and they pay well for it because they will be melting it down and extracting the pure gold content, which will then be refined back into the high karat gold they prefer. He doesn't have to show proof of ownership and he's not "hocking" it - it could be stolen for all they care. There are goldsmiths in every shopping center and they just weigh it, calculate it and pay cash - takes 2 minutes and off you pop. No reason they wouldn't do the same for Z if he walked in off the street. I can't think of a country where high karat gold is more revered than India, yet 14k still has real monetary value there, so why wouldn't it be the same in Turkey? What we're talking about is selling the gold for melting, not selling the jewelry to a pawn shop to be resold intact - 2 completely different animals.

The only thing I can think that you are trying to say, but which hasn't totally come across, is that maybe the perp assumed it was costume jewelry because 14k is uncommon in Turkey, so he left it behind thinking it was worthless? If it's true that 14k is unusual in Turkey (I haven't been there specifically), and this is your assertion, then I can see how it could be possible. But that's saying something very different than the claim that 14k IS worthless in some places, therefore it's treated like trash. I don't believe this to be true anywhere on earth. Any karat gold is still a precious metal worth money to any goldsmith.

This is exactly what I am saying. I said it way back the first or second time I mentioned it. You are a good example of what I mean, so I thank you very much for your input and hope you can clarify it more.

You can SEE the difference in 14 karat gold and higher quality gold. Americans don't always wear 14 karat gold that is carefully crafted jewelry. If you look through an Avon catalogue or a Jewelry counter in Target you will find a lot of "junk jewelry" that is 14 karat gold. It looks worthless and is basically fun jewelry.

So this is what I was referring to. We haven't seen the jewelry to assume it was quality jewelry. It could have just been a funky necklace she liked.

Gold is gold, obviously if you have experience dealing in gold jewelry you can melt down the 14 karat as scrap. But this is not what I am talking about.

Thank you for clarifying the confusion. I thought it was clear, now I see what the confusion was. :blushing:

And also the point of selling it to melt is what I've said over and over again, even if the woman paid $100 dollars for it in the US it wouldn't melt down for more than a few dollars. Granted a few dollars is a few dollars, but the $$$ value of the electronics is very obvious and easy to sell. To me it is clear why he went for the electronics and left the jewelry.

 

[EncyclopediaBrown]

I think this is the part that caused me trouble. I thought I made it clear that the standard of gold in the US is not the same elsewhere.

It seems people have personalized a generalized statement regarding culture. It is a cultural standard. 14 karat gold is junk jewelry in places outside the US. That's my observation. QUOTE]

I am in Spain and over the last few years I've found rings and things at the beach and taken them to hock them. I had to give a photocopy of my ID or Passport and fill out a form before they would even LOOK at the item and tell me it's value. I'm assuming they do some sort of paper trail like that in Turkey too? Or no?

Oh, and I remember selling a wedding ring with engraving inside it and I got 50e!

 

[Chewy]

Well that's just it. We do not know what the perps state of mind was to know whether he was thinking logically or illogically.

If he was thinking logically then there might just be a very particular reason why he took certain items of sarais and not others.

Undertstanding what these motives could or could not of been is a peice of understanding where the perps state of mind was.

In my opinion., logic points to it not being a focus on robbery. And the items taken were not for profit.

So why did he take the things he took? Why leave the other things? Was it personal? Is there more to this case then a crazy homeless man and a lost tourist? To me at least I think there is.

Yeah I agree with you, I know people are thinking we're driving them crazy LOL but I know exactly what you are saying here.

That's why I am asserting this position. Again we haven't seen the jewelry, but if robbery was the motivation then why not take the gold?

I also considered that the guy might have arthritis or some other issue that would have made it more difficult to remove the pieces. But I doubt if she had a huge diamond ring on her hand that he wouldn't have taken it as well. He moved the body so he obviously wasn't adverse to touching her.

This discrepancy makes me suspicious if he was actually the one who killed her, he could have come upon the body later and stolen her things.

If she was killed by someone else who left her there, the perp could have figured that one of the homeless guys would play scavenger, thereby contaminating the body and muddying the scene with DNA and shift the direction of the investigation.

If Z ONLY stole items on her after coming upon her after the fact, or even came upon her as she was dying and didn't help her and instead tried to steal her items then it would explain why some things were left behind. He grabbed what he could and ran.

But, as I pointed out earlier, if he thought the jewelry was junk jewelry (or perhaps a better word would be costume jewelry) then the scene makes sense IMO.

He comes upon her and tries to take her electronics. She refuses and offers him her earrings by taking them out. He thinks they are costume jewelry and worthless and throws them to the ground and hits her with the brick. He takes what he thinks is worth something and leaves the jewelry because he thinks it is costume jewelry and not valuable.

To me this solves the discrepancy. It's a logical conclusion. I never said it to start a huge debate on gold prices. :waitasec:

 

[Chewy]

I think this is the part that caused me trouble. I thought I made it clear that the standard of gold in the US is not the same elsewhere.

It seems people have personalized a generalized statement regarding culture. It is a cultural standard. 14 karat gold is junk jewelry in places outside the US. That's my observation.

I am in Spain and over the last few years I've found rings and things at the beach and taken them to hock them. I had to give a photocopy of my ID or Passport and fill out a form before they would even LOOK at the item and tell me it's value. I'm assuming they do some sort of paper trail like that in Turkey too? Or no?

Oh, and I remember selling a wedding ring with engraving inside it and I got 50e!

Yeah that's the other thing, but ThinkHard has more experience with that, I would imagine that selling gold like that would not be so easy for a homeless beggar. When someone lives on the streets like that it's not like they can go home and clean up and appear proper. Obviously he'd stand out and be suspect.

However if ThinkHard is saying the markets don't care at all then I believe her, because she's been there done that.

 

[alabaster]

New Yorkers, if you're reading, I have a question for you.

I'm thinking about Sarai's seemingly odd motivations that made her walk to the walls. One possibility is that she wanted a 'photo walk' on her last day that would impress her NYC photo walker friends. Ideally with T, so she dressed up for him, but it was of secondary importance.

I'm now going out on a limb with my question: Sarai was a proud New Yorker, it's her last day and she has a city like Istanbul full of photo motifs at her choice. Could she have felt, out of any post-9/11 sensibilities among New Yorkers, that ancient ruins and graffiti would go down better with her NY friends than more typical 'oriental' motifs?

Please let me know what you think, especially, please, if you think it's outrageously wrong!

 

[Chewy]

New Yorkers, if you're reading, I have a question for you.

I'm thinking about Sarai's seemingly odd motivations that made her walk to the walls. One possibility is that she wanted a 'photo walk' on her last day that would impress her NYC photo walker friends. Ideally with T, so she dressed up for him, but it was of secondary importance.

I'm now going out on a limb with my question: Sarai was a proud New Yorker, it's her last day and she has a city like Istanbul full of photo motifs at her choice. Could she have felt, owing to post-9/11 sensibilities among New Yorkers, that ancient ruins and graffiti would go down better with her NY friends than more typical 'oriental' motifs?

Please let me know what you think, especially, please, if you think it's outrageously wrong!

I'm not sure what you mean about the 911 sensibilities. But I doubt that 911 would have anything to do with the motivations. There's no connection between 911 and ruins.

I posted earlier and someone else verified that her work was not necessarily "Graffiti" art, NYC is an old town, whenever I return here after visiting elsewhere I'm often surprised at how "old" NYC looks, not in a historical way but more like it's dated to look like crappy 80s and very industrial. (Not all of it)

Her pictures "down by the docks" and "with old railroad tracks" are pretty much ordinary, how it looks. She did seem to do a lot of work with the central focus being a long structure, so if the walls went on for a while she may have liked the way it looked in keeping with her theme.

Some examples

http://instacanv.as/memyself_sarai/piece/251368048390688837_20533443

http://instacanv.as/memyself_sarai/piece/261515631322845963_20533443

http://instacanv.as/memyself_sarai/piece/351297294248039076_20533443

http://instacanv.as/memyself_sarai/piece/351297294248039076_20533443

http://instacanv.as/memyself_sarai/piece/370363991143601072_20533443

 

[Kluver13]

We have an equivalent expression in the US. "Two hots and a cot"

Basically, prison ain't so bad, you get two hot meals and a cot and medical.

...and the occasional rapes and shanking by inmates, and overall abuse by prison guards...please

 

[Chewy]

...and the occasional rapes and shanking by inmates, and overall abuse by prison guards...please

This phrase came to be used during the great depression in the US. There were quite a few "criminals" that got themselves arrested so they'd have food and shelter. We're talking about a homeless garbage picker here.

 

[ThinkHard]

I have been following the board but was gone and I am way behind. So LE has solved the case? it was the homeless man Z? He killed her for her leather coat? That is just horrible to find out she died over a coat..
I am trying to piece this together on board but lots of discussions going on here... I am curious how/where he ran into her and how she got to the caves. Why would she go to the caves? Sorry if this has been answered already. Playing catch up.

No the case has not been solved.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think this is the part that caused me trouble. I thought I made it clear that the standard of gold in the US is not the same elsewhere.

It seems people have personalized a generalized statement regarding culture. It is a cultural standard. 14 karat gold is junk jewelry in places outside the US. That's my observation. QUOTE]

I am in Spain and over the last few years I've found rings and things at the beach and taken them to hock them. I had to give a photocopy of my ID or Passport and fill out a form before they would even LOOK at the item and tell me it's value. I'm assuming they do some sort of paper trail like that in Turkey too? Or no?

Oh, and I remember selling a wedding ring with engraving inside it and I got 50e!

No there is no paper trail in Turkey when you sell gold. Period. I've explained this soooooo many times.

 

[ThinkHard]

Yeah I agree with you, I know people are thinking we're driving them crazy LOL but I know exactly what you are saying here.

That's why I am asserting this position. Again we haven't seen the jewelry, but if robbery was the motivation then why not take the gold?

I also considered that the guy might have arthritis or some other issue that would have made it more difficult to remove the pieces. But I doubt if she had a huge diamond ring on her hand that he wouldn't have taken it as well. He moved the body so he obviously wasn't adverse to touching her.

This discrepancy makes me suspicious if he was actually the one who killed her, he could have come upon the body later and stolen her things.

If she was killed by someone else who left her there, the perp could have figured that one of the homeless guys would play scavenger, thereby contaminating the body and muddying the scene with DNA and shift the direction of the investigation.

If Z ONLY stole items on her after coming upon her after the fact, or even came upon her as she was dying and didn't help her and instead tried to steal her items then it would explain why some things were left behind. He grabbed what he could and ran.

But, as I pointed out earlier, if he thought the jewelry was junk jewelry (or perhaps a better word would be costume jewelry) then the scene makes sense IMO.

He comes upon her and tries to take her electronics. She refuses and offers him her earrings by taking them out. He thinks they are costume jewelry and worthless and throws them to the ground and hits her with the brick. He takes what he thinks is worth something and leaves the jewelry because he thinks it is costume jewelry and not valuable.

To me this solves the discrepancy. It's a logical conclusion. I never said it to start a huge debate on gold prices. :waitasec:

I understand what you are trying to say, I do, at least now. But 14k is not uncommon jewelry in Turkey, its just not. Can you find higher quality, of course. But 14k is still common grade in jewelry there. (I have bought a couple peices of jewelry there, one was a tiny evil eye, backed with 14k and on a 14k chain, though the one I picked was a beautiful rose gold I must admit).

Anyway the point is, if it was Z, who makes a living off collecting used paper and selling it by the pound...

......I feel it highly unlikely if money was the objective of this crime he would pass up gold.....

.......Even if he wasn't sure of the quality I'd think he'd yank it off her body and find out later.....(especially where it is so quick and easy to sell there, seriously no exaggeration).

.......I have to believe without getting into mathematics that any karat of gold is more valuable per pound then paper.

 

[Chewy]

I was going to mention the "evil eye" before but I thought it would get misconstrued. Those are the ones that I have seen on 14karat.

I was talking to my husband about this last night and the example he gave by way of comparison is the difference between someone wearing a Timex and someone wearing a Rolex. He said that even though the Timex is "worth something" unloading it could be more trouble than it's worth. The electronics are a no brainer.

 

[ThinkHard]

New Yorkers, if you're reading, I have a question for you.

I'm thinking about Sarai's seemingly odd motivations that made her walk to the walls. One possibility is that she wanted a 'photo walk' on her last day that would impress her NYC photo walker friends. Ideally with T, so she dressed up for him, but it was of secondary importance.

I'm now going out on a limb with my question: Sarai was a proud New Yorker, it's her last day and she has a city like Istanbul full of photo motifs at her choice. Could she have felt, out of any post-9/11 sensibilities among New Yorkers, that ancient ruins and graffiti would go down better with her NY friends than more typical 'oriental' motifs?

Please let me know what you think, especially, please, if you think it's outrageously wrong!

I'm not saying you are wrong. Because I don't think any of us have a flipping clue what she was thinking that day. So all guesses are totally far.

But I'm not really sure what you mean. And I'm not really sure what oriental motifs you would be referring to in Istanbul as I think off oriental as from the orient as in from eastern Asia.

I'm also not really sure what post 9/11 sensibilities would have to do with her choices to photograph graffiti.

Again I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just having trouble following your train of thought. Could you elaborate. Thanks!

 

[NewYork625]

New Yorkers, if you're reading, I have a question for you.

I'm thinking about Sarai's seemingly odd motivations that made her walk to the walls. One possibility is that she wanted a 'photo walk' on her last day that would impress her NYC photo walker friends. Ideally with T, so she dressed up for him, but it was of secondary importance.

I'm now going out on a limb with my question: Sarai was a proud New Yorker, it's her last day and she has a city like Istanbul full of photo motifs at her choice. Could she have felt, out of any post-9/11 sensibilities among New Yorkers, that ancient ruins and graffiti would go down better with her NY friends than more typical 'oriental' motifs?

Please let me know what you think, especially, please, if you think it's outrageously wrong!

I agree with Chewy that although there is that there is that iconic image of the burning ruins of the World Trade Center, there really is no specific New York "sensibility" regarding ruins. Although if by ruins you mean urban decay, then I would say yes. I can see what she was looking to capture was the sense of that urban decay juxtaposed against the beauty she saw in the street art as represented by the grafitti covered, trash strewn ruins of the walls.

As far as photographing "oriental" motifs, she did photograph the Istanbul skyline, but again, rather than simply "oriental", this was more in keeping with her urban sensibilities. i don't think she would have hesitated to photograph a mosque just because of a possible reference to 911. There is a spiritual nature to her sunlight photographs, and I imagine she also appreciated the spiritual beauty of the mosques as well.