GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[ThinkHard]

I think both of you are mistaken assuming every criminal in the world is a chain snatcher who cares about gold. The fact is that some ppl dont know a thing about gold and jewelry and wouldnt care a thing about a modest gold chain and earrings. And, in Islam, men dont wear gold, its forbidden per their holy book, so unless killer had a woman in his life for whom he bought gold, hence he might have knowledge of it, I cant see him going from bluggeoining a woman who just got done belting out blood-curdling screams and scratching and possibly injuring him to turning is thoughts immediately to the current gold boom and evaluating whether he can hawk jewelry based on its markings, which he couldnt see without a monacle anyway.

Seriously your trying to say a man who makes a living selling old paper for a living....wouldn't be interested in selling scrap metal!!!

He's a homeless person not an idiot. He would very well know the value of gold, and know how easy it was to sell in the city he lived.

 

[ThinkHard]

Reading all the discussions here about selling gold vs. electronics, I wonder if you guys read this article about what Z's sister and brother said. If it was given before I apologize for this.
http://www.haberler.com/ozel-haber-sarai-sierra-nin-katil-zanlisi-olarak-4334453-haberi/
His sister said that : "When he came to visit me, we were watching this on TV. he reacted. He told me 'How can do this, this is really bad for Turkey. What's going to happen if they took the lost devices. Idiots, this can not be used or sold in Turkey. Why would they take it? I think this woman is an agent or CIA. I think they sent her to Turkey."
What does this tell us? Did Z take the devices and discovered he can not sell them? Or he knew already?

Good point. I kind of think it could mean either. But to me it seems more like something he already knew. And may have meant it like, it would be a stupid idea for a robber to take it to sell, so they must have taken it for another reason...like she was CIA and they needed info off it.

I'm not saying she's CIA I don't think that, but maybe that was Z's thoughts on why they would take it for a reason other then robbery.

 

[ThinkHard]

alpmighty did a comprehensive and exhaustive review of buying and selling electronics in Turkey. It is different than in Europe and the US. The value is in breaking them down for the components, not in selling them for re-use.

Where is alpmighty? He had really neutral and educated comments and I miss his input very much.

Come back- it's not solved. It's not over.

Thanks Herat,
I remember almighty explaining all this, I just couldn't remember the exact details. It stills seems to me though, even if they did take the electronics for selling in pieces, that it would still be substantially easier to sell scrap gold in a 2 minute exchange with no paper trail to a gold buyer who would have it melted down within hours. The only thought I could think for not doing this is if he feared being spotted on camera to go make this transaction. But then when reports said he was spotted selling Sarai's leather coat, it made me even more curious why he wouldn't have at least taken the jewelry and found out later if it was worth his time to try to sell. I mean jewelry would be substantially easier to conceal then a woman's coat, purse, and electronics.

Maybe what he took vs what he didn't take doesn't tell us a thing about what happened to Sarai. But I actually am leaning toward believing it is a very important part of piecing this together. In other words what would have been the motives for someone taking what they did could tell us what type of person was involved in this crime.

I know all we hear about is Z but I'm feeling like he may not be the big peice of this pictures. I certainly hope they can find him though, to ask him directly.

 

[bet2173]

There isn't much new info. Mostly old stuff. DNA from SS fingernails matching hair from Ziya's pillow at his brother's house.

Own comments in ()

This hole in the city walls was Ziya's home. It's 100 meters (109 yards or 328 feet or 19,9 rods) away from where SS's body was found.

His real name is Ziya Tasali

(actually Ziya Tasalı, last i has no dot on top, sounds like the "a" in "decimal", me thinks)

SS took pictures of Ziya, Ziya attempted to rape her and Ziya killed her and ran away. (Although a likely scenario, they just seem to be guessing.)

Ziya fled to Syria and CIA agents are looking for him. (Should we believe that? I really don't know.)

...

I think the press is falling so much behind the evidence of the police. I'm sure LE knew this place to be Z's home before they went to search him in Karabuk. And if so, instead of picking up all kinds of hair, etc for DNA in this home, why did they rely on the hair on the pillow in Karabuk? His sister must be way too neater than Z to wash the pillow cases and the dishes.

 

[Herat]

Paranoid ideations of a chronic huffer make as much sense as any other reason for the attack.

 

[writer411]

um......that's what I've been saying the entire thread.....:waitasec:

well, I guess I didnt pick up on it from the intense back and forth about troy ounces, usa vs. turkish gold chains argument, lol. pls 4give me.

 

[Blackydress]

Did you read the latest news? I tried to translate 1-2 paragraphs, Z's friends do not believe he can kill a person. On the other hand Z called his brother on the 9th and said he would go to Syria, he just had to. He would talk a friend who is a soldier, and call his brother in an hour. But he never did. His brother wants him to turn himself to the police.
This means he maybe already in Syria since his brother did not hear from him again.

 

[writer411]

Here's something I've been wondering about the earrings (sorry, I realize this discussion was going on several pages ago, didn't have time to catch up today at work.) Could SS have thought maybe it was a robbery attempt and taken off her earrings in an attempt to please the "robber" and satisfy him, hoping for him to go on his way. I guess my thinking is, if I was being robbed, my earrings are probably the least expensive piece of jewelry I wear. She may have taken her earrings off and handed them to the "robber" he holds onto them or puts them in a pocket, decides he wants more jewelry/electronics/etc, and that's when things become physical, in whatever manner it did. He kills her, moves her, and realizes, for whatever reason, he doesn't want the earrings any longer and throws them next to her body as he (presumably "he") is leaving.

Maybe (probably) not even close to what happened, I was just trying to figure out how her earrings could have ended up laying in the dirt next to her...

More likely scenario, in a brutal, physical struggle that results in a grizzely death, earrings fall off, necklace, bracelet catches snap. One of the few and final facts that Capkin (i think that was his same) gave to the press was that sarai's body showed signs of a struggle. everyone wants to know if the victim was raped, but noone asks if her earlobes were torn, which happens even in less violent physical altercations.

 

[ThinkHard]

Paranoid ideations of a chronic huffer make as much sense as any other reason for the attack.

I agree with that.

I'm just not sure i believe that's what happened here.

If it was paranoid ideation that caused the attack, I still have trouble believing they would have been with it enough to conceal the body in such a way, or rape her, or try...( I don't see paranoid ideation motivating rape...murder yes....rape not so much), and if no rape why was her clothing removed?

Why take her leather jacket? Why go through her belongs and leave the license? Why take both electronics when she could have only had one out? Why remove the earrings but leave them with the body?

All those thoughts, to me just don't fit the scenario of paranoid ideation as the motivation to murder.

But of course this is just my opinion.

 

[ThinkHard]

More likely scenario, in a brutal, physical struggle that results in a grizzely death, earrings fall off, necklace, bracelet catches snap. One of the few and final facts that Capkin (i think that was his same) gave to the press was that sarai's body showed signs of a struggle. everyone wants to know if the victim was raped, but noone asks if her earlobes were torn, which happens even in less violent physical altercations.

That's a good point. The weird thing I think about the earrings though, is if the were torn off in the struggle, which makes logical sense to me, and LE believes the struggle took place in a separate location then where the body was left, them how did the earrings end up burrowed in the dirt near her body?

This always stumped me and made me go hmmmm?

Because I think its weird that the perp would even be able to locate the earrings on the ground back in the spot here such a violent struggle took place, in less of course they were large dangly things, but if they were smelling finding them in the dirt I think would be kind of tricky. So its weird if they fell off in a struggle he would be able to go back and find them and put them near the body.

At least to me there seems like there is something deliberate in those actions. I'm just not sure what.

 

[pbj]

Alabaster, I'm following what you're saying. I think she wanted to get great photos on this last day. I liked what one of you said earlier about on the last day of a trip, people will take risks that they hadn't taken before to achieve their goals.

I think those motivations were present. But there was something else...she looked like a carefree schoolgirl, as she was swinging her jacket ( or whatever) and walking to the dangerous part of town. That seems incongruous until you tie it to her text from Taylan. He was coming to meet her. She was excited. She had dressed up for him, she was smitten...and she was going to get great photos, as well.

I'm wondering if they could communicate (Taylan and SS) in ways on her phone that weren't preserved. She may have wanted to go to the walls, or Taylan recommended it.

I'm remembering something said she crossed the road. ( I don't remember how they knew that. ) But she's excited about meeting Taylan and excited about the great photos. Then she meets a "nice group" of the homeless, including the smarmy Z...who with hand gestures came off charming, He wanted to show her his cave..and she is naive and thought he was safe...and Taylan would be there any minute.

So she crosses the street with Z...

 

[pbj]

One other thing...if Taylan and SS could communicate in ways not preserved, I wonder if Taylan told her to stay on the other side of the road until I get there....and the "friendly" Z led her over to the cave side.

 

[pbj]

Not meaning to be too talkative here...But I think Sarai did come on the trip for romance and great photography. ( And I agree with someone earlier, that the instagram connections and praise had buoyed her self-esteem)....And she thought it was all coming together (the romance and the great photography ) that afternoon.

 

[ThinkHard]

Alabaster, I'm following what you're saying. I think she wanted to get great photos on this last day. I liked what one of you said earlier about on the last day of a trip, people will take risks that they hadn't taken before to achieve their goals.

I think those motivations were present. But there was something else...she looked like a carefree schoolgirl, as she was swinging her jacket ( or whatever) and walking to the dangerous part of town. That seems incongruous until you tie it to her text from Taylan. He was coming to meet her. She was excited. She had dressed up for him, she was smitten...and she was going to get great photos, as well.

I'm wondering if they could communicate (Taylan and SS) in ways on her phone that weren't preserved. She may have wanted to go to the walls, or Taylan recommended it.

I'm remembering something said she crossed the road. ( I don't remember how they knew that. ) But she's excited about meeting Taylan and excited about the great photos. Then she meets a "nice group" of the homeless, including the smarmy Z...who with hand gestures came off charming, He wanted to show her his cave..and she is naive and thought he was safe...and Taylan would be there any minute.

So she crosses the street with Z...

I'm not so sure I'm willing to believe that a group of homeless man would be an inviting and charming reason to cross the road.

 

[looking4answers]

I think both of you are mistaken assuming every criminal in the world is a chain snatcher who cares about gold. The fact is that some ppl dont know a thing about gold and jewelry and wouldnt care a thing about a modest gold chain and earrings. And, in Islam, men dont wear gold, its forbidden per their holy book, so unless killer had a woman in his life for whom he bought gold, hence he might have knowledge of it, I cant see him going from bluggeoining a woman who just got done belting out blood-curdling screams and scratching and possibly injuring him to turning is thoughts immediately to the current gold boom and evaluating whether he can hawk jewelry based on its markings, which he couldnt see without a monacle anyway.

That to me is well stated, and unless this man was prescient about the turn by turn events of his evening, I too doubt anything else mattered. To be honest, I am surprised anything at all was grabbed. I still have to wonder if it was in fact him who grabbed anything at all, who knows what he did or did not grab. I am sure there are other evil people who might have come across the body and grabbed a few times without giving a thought of reporting it.

I think trying to determine motive based on things taken or left is an exercise in futility, the number of explanations are many based on changing our limited knowledge of any of the variables or what we'd like to think are "facts".

The woman was killed, her head bashed in with a stone/brick, a homeless man is on the lam, and his dna has "supposedly" been traced to dna found on her.

I know nothing else. Do you all somehow know more? I sort of tend to think, no, none of us really do.

 

[pbj]

I remember someone reporting (perhaps Yashim translated an article) that SS was seen photographing a group of homeless and was then left alone with Z. Perhaps she had already crossed the road before meeting the group, or crossed with the group...the group seem kind and helpful (and she's naive and trusting)..and then she's left alone with Z.

 

[ThinkHard]

That to me is well stated, and unless this man was prescient about the turn by turn events of his evening, I too doubt anything else mattered. To be honest, I am surprised anything at all was grabbed. I still have to wonder if it was in fact him who grabbed anything at all, who knows what he did or did not grab. I am sure there are other evil people who might have come across the body and grabbed a few times without giving a thought of reporting it.

I think trying to determine motive based on things taken or left is an exercise in futility, the number of explanations are many based on changing our limited knowledge of any of the variables or what we'd like to think are "facts".

The woman was killed, her head bashed in with a stone/brick, a homeless man is on the lam, and his dna has "supposedly" been traced to dna found on her.

I know nothing else. Do you all somehow know more? I sort of tend to think, no, none of us really do.

It's hard for me to imagine other people coming across her body and taking stuff, when it was hidden in a narrow cave and covered.

And with all do respect, and I do value your perspective. I do think there is something to why certain things were taken and certain things were left.

And like I said with her body hidden, someone else coming across it and them being the ones to take her stuff, it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[looking4answers]

This is true. New Yorkers in general are angry with the terrorists, not the Muslim people.

I am not necessarily angry with anyone at the moment lol..unless you can lump ignorant hateful, intolerant people into a group. Non?

Yet..I realize we really are all ignorant, hateful, intolerant at some point in our lives. No one is perfect, everyone can change, everyone is redeemable. If you really f up, you go to jail. Yet is there really enough of an action that can compensate for the pain of hurting or taking someone else's life? Not really.

 

[zarra30]

I think trying to determine motive based on things taken or left is an exercise in futility, the number of explanations are many based on changing our limited knowledge of any of the variables or what we'd like to think are "facts".

The woman was killed, her head bashed in with a stone/brick, a homeless man is on the lam, and his dna has "supposedly" been traced to dna found on her.

I know nothing else. Do you all somehow know more? I sort of tend to think, no, none of us really do.

I agree. I think the Turkish police are much too smart to be fooled or tricked by questionable or lying witnesses. They've continuously maintained that they are holding onto 95% of the evidence (which is a major feat in itself, as other nations would have leaks all over the place) So I'm guessing they absolutely know it's her on the video and that she did die in the time frame they give and that Z is involved. Assuming all that...

In trying to understand this case, we all try to put ourselves in Sarai or the perps shoes, but know little to nothing about her or them.

I can only speak for myself and I just think, if it was me, (me, not her), I wouldn't take photos of people in a foreign country without their permission, and I would never, ever go walking in isolated wooded areas alone. That's me.
However, if my friend didn't show, based on T and the texts being true, I might take pictures on a crowded bridge and then go looking for a place to eat, (or for wireless availability if she needed it for the phone/Ipad which I wouldn't know). I'd hope to have a friend to meet, but if not, I'd still explore side streets or heavily trafficked streets. I wouldn't stay in my room all day. I might look for a cafe or restaurant to sit in and look at my pics, or maybe visit someplace that everyone said is a 'must see'. Maybe look for a restaurant/hotel where I could stop to use the restroom, even.

Perhaps she was followed at some point? She ended up in a cave, doesn't mean she went traipsin around the cave area.

The video-My friend brought up a good point. Her own trendy daughter dresses in leggings and skinnys like Sarai's photos show her while in NYC, but the family is from Spain and her daughter always wears conservative outfits when she visits with her family in Spain, and points out that a tourist would and should be respectful of the culture she's visiting.
It's hard to tell if the girl on the grainy video is wearing jeans, they might be dark slacks.

Googlemap shows a fair amount of restaurants and possibly a bazaar (?) and a mosque off Kennedy.
Thinkhard, Herat, Yashim, anyone familiar with that area of Istanbul, if she planned to visit a religious mosque or a nice restaurant, would her outfit be considered appropriate? And are there such places close to where she was seen walking? Any 'must sees'?

 

[ThinkHard]

I agree. I think the Turkish police are much too smart to be fooled or tricked by questionable or lying witnesses. They've continuously maintained that they are holding onto 95% of the evidence (which is a major feat in itself, as other nations would have leaks all over the place) So I'm guessing they absolutely know it's her on the video and that she did die in the time frame they give and that Z is involved. Assuming all that...

In trying to understand this case, we all try to put ourselves in Sarai or the perps shoes, but know little to nothing about her or them.

I can only speak for myself and I just think, if it was me, (me, not her), I wouldn't take photos of people in a foreign country without their permission, and I would never, ever go walking in isolated wooded areas alone. That's me.
However, if my friend didn't show, based on T and the texts being true, I might take pictures on a crowded bridge and then go looking for a place to eat, (or for wireless availability if she needed it for the phone/Ipad which I wouldn't know). I'd hope to have a friend to meet, but if not, I'd still explore side streets or heavily trafficked streets. I wouldn't stay in my room all day. I might look for a cafe or restaurant to sit in and look at my pics, or maybe visit someplace that everyone said is a 'must see'. Maybe look for a restaurant/hotel where I could stop to use the restroom, even.

Perhaps she was followed at some point? She ended up in a cave, doesn't mean she went traipsin around the cave area.

The video-My friend brought up a good point. Her own trendy daughter dresses in leggings and skinnys like Sarai's photos show her while in NYC, but the family is from Spain and her daughter always wears conservative outfits when she visits with her family in Spain, and points out that a tourist would and should be respectful of the culture she's visiting.
It's hard to tell if the girl on the grainy video is wearing jeans, they might be dark slacks.

Googlemap shows a fair amount of restaurants and possibly a bazaar (?) and a mosque off Kennedy.
Thinkhard, Herat, Yashim, anyone familiar with that area of Istanbul, if she planned to visit a religious mosque or a nice restaurant, would her outfit be considered appropriate? And are there such places close to where she was seen walking? Any 'must sees'?

Here clothes would have been completely acceptable for any place to eat during the day, and even mosques.

When you go to a mosque you MUST take off your shoes, they give you little plastic bags to put them in. They provide scarves if you choose to cover your head, which is respectful to do, but not required. Depending on the attendant at the entrance handing you the scarf some are more insistent you cover your head then others, but out of respect I personally always do.

In the summer months its more of a big deal what you are wearing. If your legs are exposed, as in shorts, you must cover them with a cloth they give you, both men and women. If you are shoulders are exposed (not your arms) or your top is very low they will also give you a cloth to cover your shoulders with. It's more about skin exposure. So in the winter were clothes naturally cover more skin not such a big deal.

One day this summer when I was there, I had a long light weight skirt on and a wide strap tank top. I just ad to use one cloth to cover my shoulders. I used my own they, as I typically always had a scarf on my or in my purse ( if you ever go there by scarves and pashminas....super cheap....don't buy them at the grand bazaar though...they jack up the prices. Go to Ortakoy, or if you want a stack there is a wholesale market back up behind the spice market....don't pay more then 10 lira for solid color ones, and 20 for pretty detailed patterned ones....unless they are 100 percent cashmere then they should be 40 lira....that's my travel shopping advice for the day )