GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[zarra30]

Well if your going to a fancy restaurant at night, I wouldn't think jeans and sneakers to be acceptable in most countries....

But as far as I said earlier mosques are more concerned with skin coverage, not style...and you take off your shoes not matter what they might be.

Thanks Thinkhard, I appreciated your answer and I also want to thank you for sharing all your valuable insight into the city of Istanbul. I've learned so much from reading your posts and those of others like you who know the country.

As for stylish jeans, younger girls may wear them even at some of the top restaurants in NYC. Sneakers not so much, or never, I agree with you.

What I was also wondering, the area of the last videos of her walking, are there lots of restaurants off that highway? Is there some sort of popular area (or even a mosque) that she might have been headed to, instead of just the walls? Or would the walls pretty much be the final destination, given where she was last seen?

 

[ThinkHard]

What's interesting about a woman in a full hijab texting on a blackberry or buying short dresses? They are not in the stone age mentally just because they don't like to reveal their bodies to the world. They also wear those cute little dresses under their hijab.

Wearing a hijab is no different than a Jewish woman wearing a wig. It doesn't mean they are archaic and extremely conservative. Spiritual devotion and covering ones head is an act of piety, not a decision to forgo modernity.

I'm well aware of the point of a hijab or any choice to cover the head in any way and understand much more about Islam then the average American Christian, I also know more about Judaism then the average Christian American as well.

In the 19th century in Turkey when many villages were both Greek Christians, and Muslim Turks.....there are lots of cute stories about how when one Muslim girl would come of age and grab the attention of men. She was encouraged by her elders to start covering herself more thoroughly in order to be treated with more respect as a person and not just treated in her way because of her looks. Well other girls, even the Greek girls started covering themselves to, as if to say " I'm too beautiful and my beauty is distracting so I must cover myself" a girl would want to not cover herself because that would be like saying I'm not attractive enough to be covered . I have actually heard this story retold from many villages in Turkey during that time. But the writer Lois de Bernaise addresses it in his book "Birds Without Wings" as well. Amazing book, highly recommend it!

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I was just sharing little stories that surprised me slightly at the time, as in surprised me, like put a little smile on my face and enlightened me for the better.

 

[Chewy]

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Btw the hijab, is not the same as the niqab or the burka. When you say a woman is wearing a full hijab I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't understand what would be surprising about a religious woman using a blackberry. It's a phone.

Please stop accusing me of being "incredibly aggressive and rude" I find it very disrespectful.

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[Rolandred]

Seriously if your curious just click on this link and scroll down the 5 pictures or so. I'm not saying everyone in Istanbul dresses stylish but personally I thought most Turkish women had great style...

http://www.shoplatitude.com/blog/street-style-istanbul/

Wow! Very stylish, modern and elegant!

 

[ThinkHard]

Thanks Thinkhard, I appreciated your answer and I also want to thank you for sharing all your valuable insight into the city of Istanbul. I've learned so much from reading your posts and those of others like you who know the country.

As for stylish jeans, younger girls may wear them even at some of the top restaurants in NYC. Sneakers not so much, though, I agree with you.

What I was also wondering, the area of the last videos of her walking, are there lots of restaurants off that highway? Is there some sort of popular area (or even a mosque) that she might have been headed to, instead of just the walls? Or would the walls pretty much be the final destination?

No not really which is why I have always thought that choice of walk was strange.
From the Galata Bridge walking along the water you first see Yeni Cami (new mosque) but she passes that. For a little bit on this route is serkeci. But right where the serkeci train station is (which by the it is an ending/starting point for that line) the tram veers sharply to the right and up towards sultanahmet (the main tourist area). Kennedy cadessi after serkeci basically has nothing on it, except sea, road, and walls, for over 2 miles or so. That's it.

Strange choice huh?

 

[writer411]

That's a good point. The weird thing I think about the earrings though, is if the were torn off in the struggle, which makes logical sense to me, and LE believes the struggle took place in a separate location then where the body was left, them how did the earrings end up burrowed in the dirt near her body?

This always stumped me and made me go hmmmm?

Because I think its weird that the perp would even be able to locate the earrings on the ground back in the spot here such a violent struggle took place, in less of course they were large dangly things, but if they were smelling finding them in the dirt I think would be kind of tricky. So its weird if they fell off in a struggle he would be able to go back and find them and put them near the body.

At least to me there seems like there is something deliberate in those actions. I'm just not sure what.

whats interesting about this discourse is that it shows how world view impacts investigations. even though we're arm chairers, i think its fascinating how your convinced that there's something to the jewelry and i dont find it significant at all. guess thats the benefit of detectives working in teams.

 

[ThinkHard]

Sorry about the misuse of wording on my part regarding the word hijab...for clarity....so not to mislead someone else.....

When I said most women in Istanbul don't wear full hijabs I should have said burkas, as in the all black head to toe robe like thing, where you can only see their eyes or maybe their face.

Hijab is specifically the scarf and I think of this being more in terms of when it is worn so that it only shows the face but not the neck and the hair.

Other women who choose to cover themselves in Istanbul with a scarf will also do so by loosely covering their heads but you can still see some of their hair.

 

[ThinkHard]

whats interesting about this discourse is that it shows how world view impacts investigations. even though we're arm chairers, i think its fascinating how your convinced that there's something to the jewelry and i dont find it significant at all. guess thats the benefit of detectives working in teams.

Totally agree

 

[Chewy]

whats interesting about this discourse is that it shows how world view impacts investigations. even though we're arm chairers, i think its fascinating how your convinced that there's something to the jewelry and i dont find it significant at all. guess thats the benefit of detectives working in teams.

I find it fascinating as well, because it may not have dawned on the guy at all.

I'm still suspect if he's the only perp, my initial reaction to this story is that she got mixed up in something illegal by accident and was murdered and deliberately left there to make it look like homeless people mugged her.

But we'll see. I hope for her family's sake this comes to a head quickly, it's a little weird to me that they haven't caught him yet.

 

[zarra30]

No not really which is why I have always thought that choice of walk was strange.
From the Galata Bridge walking along the water you first see Yeni Cami (new mosque) but she passes that. For a little bit on this route is serkeci. But right where the serkeci train station is (which by the it is an ending/starting point for that line) the tram veers sharply to the right and up towards sultanahmet (the main tourist area). Kennedy cadessi after serkeci basically has nothing on it, except sea, road, and walls, for over 2 miles or so. That's it.

Strange choice huh?

I just looked at the google maps for Yeni Cami. So are you saying she passed that Ankara CD road on the right? That's where I thought she might have been going as it looked like if she crossed Kennedy and walked up Ankara there were touristy things to see.

However, if she continued past it and stayed on Kennedy, it looks like there are no roads or popular areas going off it....so I agree, very strange choice.

 

[ThinkHard]

I just looked at the google maps for Yeni Cami. So are you saying she passed that Ankara CD road on the right? That's where I thought she might have been going as it looked like if she crossed Kennedy and walked up Ankara there were touristy things to see.

However, if she continued past it and stayed on Kennedy, it looks like there are no roads or popular areas going off it....so I agree, very strange choice.

I believe she stayed on Kennedy from my understanding.

 

[zarra30]

I believe she stayed on Kennedy from my understanding.

I don't know.... I really hope they are absolutely positive they have the right girl on those videos.
It looks so isolated.
Just can't imagine her mindset...
In Amsterdam it seems like she stuck with a male when she went around and shot those pics. In NYC looks like she's usually with a group. There's such an absence, a void about her activities all those days in Istanbul.
So strange.

 

[Fantazteko]

That's a good point. The weird thing I think about the earrings though, is if the were torn off in the struggle, which makes logical sense to me, and LE believes the struggle took place in a separate location then where the body was left, them how did the earrings end up burrowed in the dirt near her body?

This always stumped me and made me go hmmmm?

Because I think its weird that the perp would even be able to locate the earrings on the ground back in the spot here such a violent struggle took place, in less of course they were large dangly things, but if they were smelling finding them in the dirt I think would be kind of tricky. So its weird if they fell off in a struggle he would be able to go back and find them and put them near the body.

At least to me there seems like there is something deliberate in those actions. I'm just not sure what.

This reminds me of the on campus off campus girlfights so many guys liked to watch while wolfwhistling.

From what I've observed, girls/women remove their earrings before engaging in fisticuffs.

Could it be that Sarai anticipated a struggle and removed her earrings as some women are known to do?

Guess that fails to explain why they were found beside her. Maybe she quickly thrusted them in her pocket before the commotion began, and they fell out while the perp was shoving her body into the cave.

 

[SophieRose]

I just looked at the google maps for Yeni Cami. So are you saying she passed that Ankara CD road on the right? That's where I thought she might have been going as it looked like if she crossed Kennedy and walked up Ankara there were touristy things to see.

However, if she continued past it and stayed on Kennedy, it looks like there are no roads or popular areas going off it....so I agree, very strange choice.

Tourist map of area
http://topkapiapartments.com/Images/haritaEdited.jpg

 

[StCirq]

Regardless of the way that Turkish women dress, which is myriad and fascinating and fashionable, and I think from my own experience of having lived 3/4 time in the USA and 1/4 time in Europe for the past 20 years, I think SS dressed appropriately for a visit to Turkey. She didn't scream out "American tourist!" and she didn't seem to act disrespectfully wherever she went. She looked low-key and practical and didn't have a come-on look. I still don't believe those last videos were of her, but I'm sure I'm in the minority on that. Even the upgraded ones where it's not so grainy and you can sort of see her holding a bag or her jacket in her right hand don't convince me.

 

[ThinkHard]

Tourist map of area
http://topkapiapartments.com/Images/haritaEdited.jpg

Ooo very helpful thank!

If you notice the red dotted line on that map, that is the trams path, where it veers up after the bridge (or I guess down by the angle of this map) is pretty much where the restaurant and shops etc end going along in the direction of Kennedy.

 

[zarra30]

Tourist map of area
http://topkapiapartments.com/Images/haritaEdited.jpg

SophieRose. Thank you! What a great map! Yes, those red dots, that's kind of where I assumed she might have wanted to go in her nice outfit.
But it looks like she didn't. I was thinking maybe she didn't make the turn, but I'd think she would have been smart enough to figure that out fairly quickly and turn around.
Guess she didn't or was indeed going somewhere else.

 

[StCirq]

And what about her time in Munich? I spent about an hour today googling in German trying to find ANYTHING about it, as I speak/read enough German to be able to follow a news story....nothing, absolutely nothing. Same with French news, Dutch news, Italian news, you name it. It's very frustrating. I keep thinking... I speak all these languages, this must be a help, but it's not. Yowza!

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[StCirq]

<<From what I've observed, girls/women remove their earrings before engaging in fisticuffs>>

Are you kidding? You're encountering a rapist and take the time to take off your earrings?

What the heck have you actually "observed" with regard to this, I'd love to know

Do you put on lipstick, too, before the attack?

Sorry, but this strikes me as beyond-the-pale absurd..

 

[zarra30]

I still don't believe those last videos were of her, but I'm sure I'm in the minority on that. Even the upgraded ones where it's not so grainy and you can sort of see her holding a bag or her jacket in her right hand don't convince me.

If those videos are the best they have, I am with you and don't think it looks like her, in fact, it could be any of a hundred women, the video is too poor.

I'm just assuming that they must have better videos, perhaps closeups inside some place that look clearer, like the airport video. Or maybe she went to a bank or a restaurant and they have expert witnesses, and that they just haven't relaesed those images or information.

But if all they have are those 3 grainy distant video images, then nope, I'm not convinced at all.