GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[Yashim]

Given all the negative press, this case will in all likelihood give single women pause in terms of travelling to Istanbul, and I think other women who have traveled there and loved it will find that regrettable and unfair.

Currently, Turkey is not the best destination for the below combination

- female
- traveling alone
- no local contacts
- first time in Turkey
- no or little experience in a similar (the Balkans and the Caucasus) or more difficult region
- limited budget (no staying at 5-star hotels, personal tourist guides)

This is not unfair. The other women should just feel lucky.

I really don't understand SS's case, though. Murder of a tourist is very very rare. I don't even recall one.

But it can get risky.

But so is bungee-jumping. Yet some people still die for it. And a few even literally.

...

 

[delal]

Just to counter the above comments, I have travelled all over Turkey, often alone, even to the extremely scary South East full of terrifying village rural types. I also don't consider myself lucky to not have been raped or attacked.

I just wanted to answer something that was addressed a few pages back. Someone asked if there was somewhere that Sarai may have been heading on her walk down Kennedy. Actually, yes there is and it's a walk I've done myself several times. If you keep walking, eventually you get to an arch in the walls, go through it to the right and you are in an area called Kumkapi. There are cobbled streets and fish restaurants/bars there. It's a nice area and popular with tourists.

 

[Yashim]

Just to counter the above comments, I have travelled all over Turkey, often alone, even to the extremely scary South East full of terrifying village rural types. I also don't consider myself lucky to not have been raped or attacked.

I just wanted to answer something that was addressed a few pages back. Someone asked if there was somewhere that Sarai may have been heading on her walk down Kennedy. Actually, yes there is and it's a walk I've done myself several times. If you keep walking, eventually you get to an arch in the walls, go through it to the right and you are in an area called Kumkapi. There are cobbled streets and fish restaurants/bars there. It's a nice area and popular with tourists.

I didn't say Turkey is full of rapists or murderers. An experience so unpleasant to ruin the memory of all other good stuff.

- Stolen camera
- Stolen wallet
- A tourist guide asking for your phone
- Some toot touching your shoulder
- Or even a dirty stare

something that can make you uncomfortable.

but since you have traveled so much in Turkey, I would assume that you are some sort of secret agent working for the national intelligence agency of some country

even when you don't have your weapon with you, you can always crack the cyanide pill in your mouth and spit the contents in your attacker's mouth

 

[CMac2]

I am utterly baffled that this appears to be Z's first serious crime. Men who prey on women do not develop this habit at the age of 50 years old. Either the motivation for committing the crime had nothing to do with SS' being a woman and had nothing to do with sex, or he has done this many times in the past, and simply hadn't been caught yet. His being a habitual offender makes no sense though, because he was too sloppy in the commission of this crime. No way has he done this- at least not with this M.O.- multiple times in the past. He'd have been caught before now.

 

[Rolandred]

Discus throwing may be irrelevant, but I made it perfectly relevant. And it moved us a step further. Towards the Bosporus.

Anyway, I agree with you. Those are Europeans! They'll make fun of what you're doing until they themselves start doing it.

I really wish SS should have chosen a more tourist friendly country than Turkey. By tourist-friendly, I am referring to conditions that enable tourists to easily travel around and explore the city by themselves. Germany, Scandinavia, Benelux, and UK could have been better. I would't even recommend any South European country.

For longer stays, i.e. expat assignment in international company, Istanbul will certainly beat many other countries.When in Europe, an American tourist is an American tourist. When in Turkey, an American tourist is a tourist who happens to be an American.

But for a first-time, short-term (a few weeks) stay, Istanbul isn't quite ideal, especially for a female tourist with no close contacts in the city.

And Istanbul will never be at the level of Amsterdam. As more tourists come, more rural Turks migrate to Istanbul to work in Tourism industry. And they are content with little pay, so they get the jobs. And they are having an internal culture shock in Istanbul from Istanbul and an external one from tourists. So, that gives rise to some unpleasant experiences for the tourists. I doubt there are many Istanbul or big-city (Ankara, Bursa, Izmir) people working in Istanbul's tourism industry.

Just curious, why would you not recommend any southern European country?, Southern Europe is full of British, German, Dutch, French, Mid-Eastern and now Russian...etc..tourists- and many have second homes in these southern European countries...

Ms. Sierra clearly did not consult many persons she knew who had traveled - that is if she even had a circle of friends who had ever been out of US excepting maybe Puerto Rico - and maybe yes, made her travel plans based on the IG "friends".

But for a first time traveler - I'd like to know why you would only recommend northern European countries? Especially since you are apparently living in Turkey or are Turkish? Thanks...

 

[Rolandred]

I am utterly baffled that this appears to be Z's first serious crime. Men who prey on women do not develop this habit at the age of 50 years old. Either the motivation for committing the crime had nothing to do with SS' being a woman and had nothing to do with sex, or he has done this many times in the past, and simply hadn't been caught yet. His being a habitual offender makes no sense though, because he was too sloppy in the commission of this crime. No way has he done this- at least not with this M.O.- multiple times in the past. He'd have been caught before now.

I think he did it - he's on the run. If he had not done this, he would have asked his family for help to find someone to defend him...(jmo)...he is a "thinner" addict - with a criminal past...maybe LE are somehow following him? That is the question!

 

[Herat]

Just curious, why would you not recommend any southern European country?, Southern Europe is full of British, German, Dutch, French, Mid-Eastern and now Russian...etc..tourists- and many have second homes in these southern European countries...

Ms. Sierra clearly did not consult many persons she knew who had traveled - that is if she even had a circle of friends who had ever been out of US excepting maybe Puerto Rico - and maybe yes, made her travel plans based on the IG "friends".

.

Without doing any research, I would think a January trip to Turkey would be preferable climate-wise to northern Europe. It's not apparent there was much research on her part and that might have been as reasonable assumption as the flattery she was getting from annonymous foreigners on an internet forum.

 

[Herat]

I just wanted to answer something that was addressed a few pages back. Someone asked if there was somewhere that Sarai may have been heading on her walk down Kennedy. Actually, yes there is and it's a walk I've done myself several times. If you keep walking, eventually you get to an arch in the walls, go through it to the right and you are in an area called Kumkapi. There are cobbled streets and fish restaurants/bars there. It's a nice area and popular with tourists.

Regardless of where she was ultimately heading, she did place herself in the wall areas where there were vagrants and huffers. She did have an interest in photographing railroad lines and graffitti and they were exactly where she was attacked.

It's not as if she was meeting girlfriends for lunch in Kumkapi or Gulane Park and was hauled off of Kennedy Caddesi by a band of maurading raving huffers at midday.

 

[delal]

- Stolen camera
- Stolen wallet
- A tourist guide asking for your phone
- Some toot touching your shoulder
- Or even a dirty stare

Eh those things could happen anywhere.
And frankly, if a guy touching a shoulder upset someone so much, they are definitely not the type of person who should be, or would enjoy travelling alone.

Where's alp? He was hot.

 

[delal]

Regardless of where she was ultimately heading, she did place herself in the wall areas where there were vagrants and huffers. She did have an interest in photographing railroad lines and graffitti and they were exactly where she was attacked.

It's not as if she was meeting girlfriends for lunch in Kumkapi or Gulane Park and was hauled off of Kennedy Caddesi by a band of maurading raving huffers at midday.

Oh yes, I agree. It's just that someone was asking a few pages back if there were anywhere she might have been heading towards. The answer came back as no, and I wanted to point out that actually, the road does lead somewhere of interest

 

[Yashim]

Eh those things could happen anywhere.
And frankly, if a guy touching a shoulder upset someone so much, they are definitely not the type of person who should be, or would enjoy travelling alone.

Where's alp? He was hot.

You are in fact right. I'm sorry.

I don't know where Alp is. Again sorry.

 

[Fantazteko]

WHERE did it say SS had pierced ears????
Those clip on earrings fall off easily by themselves, without any fighting: I had to help my gran look for a lost earring more than once.

There are no specifications regarding her earrings or piercings.
Speculate is all we can do for now.

 

[Meri]

Eh those things could happen anywhere.
And frankly, if a guy touching a shoulder upset someone so much, they are definitely not the type of person who should be, or would enjoy travelling alone.

Where's alp? He was hot.

LOL - agree!

 

[Yashim]

Just curious, why would you not recommend any southern European country?, Southern Europe is full of British, German, Dutch, French, Mid-Eastern and now Russian...etc..tourists- and many have second homes in these southern European countries...

Ms. Sierra clearly did not consult many persons she knew who had traveled - that is if she even had a circle of friends who had ever been out of US excepting maybe Puerto Rico - and maybe yes, made her travel plans based on the IG "friends".

But for a first time traveler - I'd like to know why you would only recommend northern European countries? Especially since you are apparently living in Turkey or are Turkish? Thanks...

For a tourist, any European country is capable of offering interesting experiences. Please accept my apologies if I offended you by including your homeland in the "no-no" list.

But I was thinking of the case a lone female traveler.

Let me paraphrase that: if a American female friend of mine came up to me and ask my advice on which European country to visit given that she wants to feel comfortable and she doesn't want being judged for traveling alone and want her lone trip to signal anyone that she is looking for a mate. Then I would assume that she would feel more comfortable in those countries where women are more integrated into social life. I would think there must be studies on this.

But I don't know if that was the case for SS. Maybe she asked some people she would like to go some place very different and she liked adventure. So they suggested Istanbul. Who knows?

Anyway, but I am providing the women's employment ratios in European countries and the US for 2011. (Women’s employment ratio is calculated as the ratio of employed women between ages 15-64 to the total number of women in that population segment.)

This could be an indicator. But I believe a composite indicator would produce more consistent rankings.

Any country above the US ratio (62%) would (at least esthetically) provide a similar social environment.

It depends on lots of things. But I personally wouldn't ask advice from myself anyway. Just like LE is not asking us for suggestions on the SS case, I am hoping tourists will get nth opinions than following mine.

I believe I would take my advice on a city basis not country and from someone who has lived there for sometime.

Guidebooks can help too.

Here's the stats.

Women's Employment Ratio in 2011 (%)

Iceland 77
Norway 73
Switzerland 73
Sweden 72
Denmark 70
Netherlands 70
Germany 68
Finland 68
Austria 67
United Kingdom 65
Russian 64
Estonia 63
United States 62
Slovenia 61
Portugal 60
Japan 60
France 60
Czech Republic 57
Luxembourg 57
Belgium 57
Ireland 56
Poland 53
Spain 53
Slovak Republic 53
Hungary 51
Italy 47
Greece 45
Turkey 28

Source: OECD Employment Outlook 2012.

Again, I am really sorry. Sometimes I can be quite judgmental.

 

[pbj]

Yashim, what do you mean you haven't been to the area yet?

I thought when you weren't drinking yesterday's coffee at the precinct, you were bunking in a cave with a huffer, to bring us the latest intel.

 

[Yashim]

Yashim, what do you mean you haven't been to the area yet?

I thought when you weren't drinking yesterday's coffee at the precinct, you were bunking in a cave with a huffer, to bring us the latest intel.

To tell you the truth, I have never even been to Turkey.

After reading so many posts about it, I say why not now.

 

[Rolandred]

For a tourist, any European country is capable of offering interesting experiences. Please accept my apologies if I offended you by including your homeland in the "no-no" list.

But I was thinking of the case a lone female traveler.

Let me paraphrase that: if a American female friend of mine came up to me and ask my advice on which European country to visit given that she wants to feel comfortable and she doesn't want being judged for traveling alone and want her lone trip to signal anyone that she is looking for a mate. Then I would assume that she would feel more comfortable in those countries where women are more integrated into social life. I would think there must be studies on this.

But I don't know if that was the case for SS. Maybe she asked some people she would like to go some place very different and she liked adventure. So they suggested Istanbul. Who knows?

Anyway, but I am providing the women's employment ratios in European countries and the US for 2011. (Women’s employment ratio is calculated as the ratio of employed women between ages 15-64 to the total number of women in that population segment.)

This could be an indicator. But I believe a composite indicator would produce more consistent rankings.

Any country above the US ratio (62%) would (at least esthetically) provide a similar social environment.

It depends on lots of things. But I personally wouldn't ask advice from myself anyway. Just like LE is not asking us for suggestions on the SS case, I am hoping tourists will get nth opinions than following mine.

I believe I would take my advice on a city basis not country and from someone who has lived there for sometime.

Guidebooks can help too.

Here's the stats.

Women's Employment Ratio in 2011 (%)

Iceland 77
Norway 73
Switzerland 73
Sweden 72
Denmark 70
Netherlands 70
Germany 68
Finland 68
Austria 67
United Kingdom 65
Russian 64
Estonia 63
United States 62
Slovenia 61
Portugal 60
Japan 60
France 60
Czech Republic 57
Luxembourg 57
Belgium 57
Ireland 56
Poland 53
Spain 53
Slovak Republic 53
Hungary 51
Italy 47
Greece 45
Turkey 28

Source: OECD Employment Outlook 2012.

Again, I am really sorry. Sometimes I can be quite judgmental.

Hey - not asking for any apologies! No offense taken. But the statistics on women working does not mean a country is safer or more accepting to females...your statistics are also based on the employment rate in general - and we all know that for example, Greece , Spain and Italy have very high unemployment rates.

I was thinking your reason was cultural - because perhaps you may think a woman alone would be safer somehow in the northern European union in general. Have you ever been to southern Europe? Would you recommend Turkey over southern Europe?

Anyway, Ms. Sierra, in my opinion would have been fine going to Turkey - the point is that she just did not use common sense and ventured into dangerous territory because she was naive in general - it is a case of tragedy and perhaps a cautionary tale for all lone travelers be it male or female who choose to go to whatever country.

 

[Yashim]

Hey - not asking for any apologies! No offense taken. But the statistics on woman working does not mean a country is safer or more accepting to females...your statistics are also based on the employment rate in general - and we all know that for example, Greece , Spain and Italy have very high unemployment rates.

I was thinking your reason was cultural - because perhaps you may think a woman alone would be safer somehow in the northern European union in general. Have you ever been to southern Europe? Would you recommend Turkey over southern Europe?

Anyway, Ms. Sierra, in my opinion would have been fine going to Turkey - the point is that she just did not use common sense and ventured into dangerous territory because she was naive in general - it is a case of tragedy and perhaps a cautionary tale for all lone travelers be it male or female who choose to go to whatever country.

Thanks.

Unemployment is the ratio of unemployed to labor force (employed + unemployed). Women's increased supply of labor (their demand to get a job) may also lead to higher rates.

But employment ratio is less volatile and has a more structural dimension, yet it when the employed gets unemploed, it drops. But when new people enter into labor for and can't find jobs, unemployment increases, but employment ratio stays the same.

Yet I see you point, cyclical downturn will impact employment ration. But I did go back and check, the low scoring countries (Italy, Greece, Turkey) never did well since 2000. (If you want to see for yourself, you have to choose "women" in gender and "total" in age.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LFS_SEXAGE_I_R


That said, this indicator is not excellent because it is not what it was designed for.

But I thought if I had a daughter, what would I like her destination to be so that I can sleep without having nightmares. A country where majority of people speak English and where women are more socially integrated. I may be wrong.

But I am not a UN official. I am not a Travel Guide author. I would just be a father. I can't imagine anyone being impartial and say "daughter, I haven't been to all of them, it's your choice, wherever you go, make sure you have fun."

I also think SS should have been fine. But it all depends how alert you want to be and how much risk you want to take. For a risk taker, even the safest place will become dangerous. And as you have said, that was the mistake she did.

Those parts or those people might have deceptively seemed safe.

Sorry, I gotta go. I got a plane to catch in the morning. And I may not be able to respond to your reply till I'm back.

:seeya:

 

[StCirq]

<<Maybe she asked some people she would like to go some place very different and she liked adventure. So they suggested Istanbul. Who knows?>>

I still think there was some connection, through her brother David, and through her church, with Turkey to begin with, as in before she started making friends with Turks on IG, because you don't just go on some photography site and start singling out Turks to chat with, unless there is some photographic connection between you and the Turks you meet on that site - which is possible, of course, if it happened that the Turkish members were showing/discussing photos that had some particular appeal to SS.

There are quite a number of Armenian churches in Staten Island, and SS's body was kept in Surp Yerrortuyan before being shipped back to the USA. I bet there's some connection between the Christian Pentecostal Church and the Armenian one in Istanbul, and maybe a connection between SS's brother and some Armenian church on Staten Island that precipitated the whole spark of interest in Turkey to begin with, which as noted doesn't fit the normal profile for a first-time visitor to Europe or a first-time traveler out of the country.

And I don't understand the comment about southern European countries, either. IME visiting Spain, France, Italy is quite the norm for first-time American travelers - welcoming people, lots of English speakers for those who don't speak foreign languages, beautiful scenery, great food, etc.

 

[Rolandred]

Thanks.

Unemployment is the ratio of unemployed to labor force (employed + unemployed). Women's increased supply of labor (their demand to get a job) may also lead to higher rates.

But employment ratio is less volatile and has a more structural dimension, yet it when the employed gets unemploed, it drops. But when new people enter into labor for and can't find jobs, unemployment increases, but employment ratio stays the same.

Yet I see you point, cyclical downturn will impact employment ration. But I did go back and check, the low scoring countries (Italy, Greece, Turkey) never did well since 2000. (If you want to see for yourself, you have to choose "women" in gender and "total" in age.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LFS_SEXAGE_I_R


That said, this indicator is not excellent because it is not what it was designed for.

But I thought if I had a daughter, what would I like her destination to be so that I can sleep without having nightmares. A country where majority of people speak English and where women are more socially integrated. I may be wrong.

But I am not a UN official. I am not a Travel Guide author. I would just be a father. I can't imagine anyone being impartial and say "daughter, I haven't been to all of them, it's your choice, wherever you go, make sure you have fun."

I also think SS should have been fine. But it all depends how alert you want to be and how much risk you want to take. For a risk taker, even the safest place will become dangerous. And as you have said, that was the mistake she did.

Those parts or those people might have deceptively seemed safe.

Sorry, I gotta go. I got a plane to catch in the morning. And I may not be able to respond to your reply till I'm back.

:seeya:

No need to respond! If you had a daughter means you do not have one - so your mindset is different - I guess if you are an American you need to think you have to go to places where people speak English because that feels safe and that somehow means that those people understand your culture and therefore will respect you more...that's so American. Oh well.