GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[StCirq]

No need to respond! If you had a daughter means you do not have one - so your mindset is different - I guess if you are an American you need to think you have to go to places where people speak English because that feels safe and that somehow means that those people understand your culture and therefore will respect you more...that's so American. Oh well.

Gosh, I've been traveling all my life and never thought I needed to go anyplace that people spoke English. What I thought was - I better learn their language!

But then, I'm the sorry type who's traveled all over the world by herself, left spouse and kids behind, went to North Africa and Kenya and India and loads of other places completely on her own, and never had a shred of guilt. And encouraged my kids to do the same. I'm a terrible person.

 

[Rolandred]

Gosh, I've been traveling all my life and never thought I needed to go anyplace that people spoke English. What I thought was - I better learn their language!

But then, I'm the sorry type who's traveled all over the world by herself, left spouse and kids behind, went to North Africa and Kenya and India and loads of other places completely on her own, and never had a shred of guilt. And encouraged my kids to do the same. I'm a terrible person.

Yes, that is why I asked Yasmin why he/she thinks one should only travel to northern European countries for a first time visit and avoid traveling to southern Europe even if millions of tourists a year travel to southern Europe from many northern European countries and many have second homes there...but I do not have an answer....

 

[Yashim]

Yes, that is why I asked Yasmin why he/she thinks one should only travel to northern European countries for a first time visit and avoid traveling to southern Europe even if millions of tourists a year travel to southern Europe from many northern European countries and many have second homes there...but I do not have an answer....

I always think that a first trip abroad will reenforce one’s enthusiasm to explore other cultures if it is a positive, rewarding one. And this chance increases when the choice of destination enables the person to easily communicate with the people of that place, other than asking directions for a museum or buying a beer, which one can even manage with hand gestures.

However, I also respect the perception that views cultural tourism as a visit to the zoo, where one does not essentially need extensive verbal communication and feels even safer by limiting his/her social interaction with the locals.

It is a cultural thing perhaps. We should all respect each others' views.

...

 

[Fantazteko]

I am utterly baffled that this appears to be Z's first serious crime. Men who prey on women do not develop this habit at the age of 50 years old. Either the motivation for committing the crime had nothing to do with SS' being a woman and had nothing to do with sex, or he has done this many times in the past, and simply hadn't been caught yet. His being a habitual offender makes no sense though, because he was too sloppy in the commission of this crime. No way has he done this- at least not with this M.O.- multiple times in the past. He'd have been caught before now.

It is very likely that the person who committed this crime has killed before. These types of criminals depend on chance, there is nothing sloppy or expert about their motives.

Some killers/criminals are hard to catch due exactly to their disorganization.

And let’s just speculate that Ziya is some kind of predator. With the little we know about his way of life, he would be at an advantage.

His environment would provide him with all the things he needs. What need would there be to carry a weapon when you can easily pluck out a brick from your own wall? Or a rock resting at your front door. You have any unseen hidden spot to hide if you ever need to make yourself vanish.

And the fact that Ziya had no permanent address probably helped him go undetected for so long. His trail would be haphazard, a nightmare for those attempting to track him.

And it’s interesting that most killers are almost always caught after they slip up. Maybe this crime was Ziya’s downfall as a criminal because he drew so much attention to himself.

Articles written by Turkish women have been posted on this thread stating that, had Sarai been one of their own, the amount of resources to catch the perp would prove insufficient.

But I somehow believe Sarai’s being a woman had little to do with her death.

“A man is much more than the worst thing he has ever done.”

Good people do bad things all the time, and vis versa. Ziya’s age is irrelevant. Age meant nothing when so many other serial killers or criminals were apprehended in their later years.

That’s what happens sometimes when cold cases are solved.

If he is completely innocent and the cloud of suspicion has unfairly hovered over him, I will be surprised.

I’m almost 100% convinced he had some involvement.

 

[writer411]

Oh Sandoval, your opinion must be so frustrating to those who keep trying to ram home the message:
"Women, take heed. If you’re married and choose to take a trip to an interesting country without your family, it’s not because you can’t afford to take everyone, or that you can’t afford to stay in an expensive hotel, or that you might just want to have a chance to, for once and maybe for the only time in your life, and with your family’s trust and support, follow your own interests and briefly experience another culture, it must be that you are either a drug mule, immoral cheater or simply foolish enough to wander, man-less, in the most isolated area, peeking into caves so as to snap pictures of dangerous glue sniffing characters.

And for any intelligent women who think they don’t fall into any of those negative categories, then by all means, don’t end up dead, cause then you very well might. Just be a good wife and just wait until your husband and children can afford to pay the steep airfare and hotel charges and accompany you. If that time never comes, stay home and the boogieman won't catch ya."

I agree with you Sandoval. I think she wanted to come home early, missed and loved her family. Someone stopped her. Hope it's solved one day.

Well, whatever her reasons, going all the way to turkey to wander around looking at stuff she knew nothing about was a bad idea (this we know since she ended up dead). I could see it being worth it if she was an art history or islamic studies student, then it might be worth it to go there to bring things alive. But, it looks like she just wandered around, got bored, went to Amsterdam for a day or so just to have someone to hang out with, sat around Munich alone waiting for a plane to go back to Istanbul to catch her flight back to NY, wandered around Istanbul somemore alone, called some guy to go for a walk, he didnt really want to see her but then he was like what the hey. In the meantime, she goes for a walk by herself cause she doesnt know anyone else to call and ends up getting killed.

Imho, since this trip ended in complete disaster, if she wanted to get away from her family for a short while, she would have done better to go to Philadelphia or Washington, DC, cause u dont have to go all the way to turkey to end up bored, alone and dead.

 

[zarra30]

Gosh, I've been traveling all my life and never thought I needed to go anyplace that people spoke English. What I thought was - I better learn their language!

But then, I'm the sorry type who's traveled all over the world by herself, left spouse and kids behind, went to North Africa and Kenya and India and loads of other places completely on her own, and never had a shred of guilt. And encouraged my kids to do the same. I'm a terrible person.

I'm like you StCirq, I've traveled a lot, with friends and on my own. Lived in some countries and 95% of the time loved every minute, but I do remember my first time abroad wasn't so great. I was young and backpacked with a friend who spoke several languages. I'd planned for it and saved for a long time. Saw the brochures, read up on the areas I wanted to visit, 4 countries in 2 weeks, it sounded great in theory. But what I wasn't prepared for was the sense of isolation and paranoia that a first time traveler on the cheap can experience.

The bottom dollar hotel rooms we found were usually a dump as we hadn't thought to book popular hostels in advance. When my friend would have conversations with locals in their language, I felt left out and stupid and knew that people (and my friend) got tired of always having to interpret every sentence for me. If someone laughed, I thought "Are they laughing at me?" As a young naive American I had to face the harsh fact that these people had not waited their entire lives for my arrival (LOL) in fact they didn't need me or really care much to hear my opinions. When I went off by myself, street signs and food and measurements (like ordering a kilo of cheese for one sandwich) were so alien. I didn't like the food. I got lost, I got hit on constantly (or maybe I imagined it) and I couldn't even figure how to use a pay phone or buy a subway token. I was so dependent on my friend who was just as clueless. I was lonely and nervous, and clung to other Americans and Brits who were also traveling because they spoke my language. Don't get me wrong, in between the craziness, I had fun and saw some great sights.

Like you, I agree I needed to learn some of the languages, plan things much better, have more cash and have more realistic expectations before traveling again. But first time travelers, especially solo women often do not realize the culture shock that awaits them.

In regard to SS, if she didn't speak Turkish and all she had were some IG contacts and they turned out to be sketchy, well, I can see why she might have decided to cut it short.
Though none of us really know much about her or who she knew or met there.

 

[StCirq]

I always think that a first trip abroad will reenforce one’s enthusiasm to explore other cultures if it is a positive, rewarding one. And this chance increases when the choice of destination enables the person to easily communicate with the people of that place, other than asking directions for a museum or buying a beer, which one can even manage with hand gestures.

However, I also respect the perception that views cultural tourism as a visit to the zoo, where one does not essentially need extensive verbal communication and feels even safer by limiting his/her social interaction with the locals.

It is a cultural thing perhaps. We should all respect each others' views.

...

I agree, but that assumes Americans don't speak other languages, which is for the most part right. I kind of resent that, though. I spent the greater part of my youth learning other languages and do not generally visit other cultures where I don't speak a language that the locals speak. I have had very limited experience communicating with hand gestures. I don't think that works all that well. I think SS spoke English and maybe Spanish and did have to communicate with hand gestures sometimes in Istanbul (I would have had to - I don't speak Turkish), but the fact is, she didn't speak Turkish (although she managed to communicate to her landlord, who maybe spoke English (??)that she was not married.

 

[zarra30]

Well, whatever her reasons, going all the way to turkey to wander around looking at stuff she knew nothing about was a bad idea (this we know since she ended up dead). I could see it being worth it if she was an art history or islamic studies student, then it might be worth it to go there to bring things alive. But, it looks like she just wandered around, got bored, went to Amsterdam for a day or so just to have someone to hang out with, sat around Munich alone waiting for a plane to go back to Istanbul to catch her flight back to NY, wandered around Istanbul somemore alone, called some guy to go for a walk, he didnt really want to see her but then he was like what the hey. In the meantime, she goes for a walk by herself cause she doesnt know anyone else to call and ends up getting killed.

Imho, since this trip ended in complete disaster, if she wanted to get away from her family for a short while, she would have done better to go to Philadelphia or Washington, DC, cause u dont have to go all the way to turkey to end up bored, alone and dead.

(Or the Cecil Hotel in La.)
I agree with you, if that's what really happened. Personally, I think there was extreme bad judgement, if that is what happened.
But none of us really know what happened and that's my only point.
Your posts and most posts on this board have been very insightful and have made people think.
What I was pointing out was that the media made a lot of immediate assumptions and developed a slew of negative scenarios without any facts to back them up.

Apparently there's still 95% being kept under wraps, a 5 hours time frame for her death, IG contacts still being investigated, grainy videos, a possibility that she was killed not on the spot.

It's mind boggling trying to arrive at what really happened, though I understand that they need to keep information from everyone.
About all we can be sure of is that she ended up dead and Z has her DNA on him. That could have happened to an art student or an Islamic Studies student.

 

[looking4answers]

For a tourist, any European country is capable of offering interesting experiences. Please accept my apologies if I offended you by including your homeland in the "no-no" list.

But I was thinking of the case a lone female traveler.

Let me paraphrase that: if a American female friend of mine came up to me and ask my advice on which European country to visit given that she wants to feel comfortable and she doesn't want being judged for traveling alone and want her lone trip to signal anyone that she is looking for a mate. Then I would assume that she would feel more comfortable in those countries where women are more integrated into social life. I would think there must be studies on this.

But I don't know if that was the case for SS. Maybe she asked some people she would like to go some place very different and she liked adventure. So they suggested Istanbul. Who knows?

Anyway, but I am providing the women's employment ratios in European countries and the US for 2011. (Women’s employment ratio is calculated as the ratio of employed women between ages 15-64 to the total number of women in that population segment.)

This could be an indicator. But I believe a composite indicator would produce more consistent rankings.

Any country above the US ratio (62%) would (at least esthetically) provide a similar social environment.

It depends on lots of things. But I personally wouldn't ask advice from myself anyway. Just like LE is not asking us for suggestions on the SS case, I am hoping tourists will get nth opinions than following mine.

I believe I would take my advice on a city basis not country and from someone who has lived there for sometime.

Guidebooks can help too.

Here's the stats.

Women's Employment Ratio in 2011 (%)

Iceland 77
Norway 73
Switzerland 73
Sweden 72
Denmark 70
Netherlands 70
Germany 68
Finland 68
Austria 67
United Kingdom 65
Russian 64
Estonia 63
United States 62
Slovenia 61
Portugal 60
Japan 60
France 60
Czech Republic 57
Luxembourg 57
Belgium 57
Ireland 56
Poland 53
Spain 53
Slovak Republic 53
Hungary 51
Italy 47
Greece 45
Turkey 28

Source: OECD Employment Outlook 2012.

Again, I am really sorry. Sometimes I can be quite judgmental.

Wt..why is Canada not on this list, besides the fact that it is a NATO member, part of the G20 and also has a high employment rate for women. Who authored this ridiculous OECD stat study? I was part of a project/study that got posted with them a long time ago early in my career, so I do know who the OECD is.

After the "Argo" baloney and ben Affleck's ridiculous ilk changing the actual fact that 90% of the logistics and actions to save the 6 US embassy staff in Iran were all done by the Canadians and not the CIA, I am a wee bit sensitive to ridiculousness when it comes to changing facts or leaving them out to begin with when it comes to Canada.

Anyways, case in point, three sources for the same ratio, yet the # is different in all three enough for me to cry "too much bias" and not enough study control.

http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/.3ndic.1t.4r@-eng.jsp?iid=13

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/employment/employment-rate-of-women_20752342-table5

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.EMP.TOTL.SP.ZS


Sorry for going off on a tangent..just find the interpretation of facts to be skewed too much these days.



Ooh just because I am feeling a wee bit put off still, had to add this even though it has absolutely nothing to do with Sarai, and everything to do with Holepoop (I mean Hollywood) and of course the media in general and it's ridiculousness.

In a CNN interview, President Carter addressed the controversy by stating: "90% of the contributions to the ideas and the consummation of the plan was Canadian. And the movie gives almost full credit to the American CIA. And with that exception, the movie is very good. But Ben Affleck's character in the film was... only in Tehran a day and a half. And the main hero, in my opinion, was Ken Taylor, who was the Canadian ambassador who orchestrated the entire process."[18] When interviewed, Taylor noted that, "In reality, Canada was responsible for the six and the CIA was a junior partner. But I realize this is a movie and you have to keep the audience on the edge of their seats."[16] Taylor is also shown threatening to close the Canadian embassy in the movie; in reality, this did not happen and the Canadians never considered abandoning the six Americans who had taken refuge under Canadian protection.[16]

Affleck asserted: "Because we say it's based on a true story, rather than this is a true story, we're allowed to take some dramatic license. There's a spirit of truth" and that "the kinds of things that are really important to be true are—for example, the relationship between the U.S. and Canada. The U.S. stood up collectively as a nation and said, 'We like you, we appreciate you, we respect you, and we're in your debt.'... There were folks who didn't want to stick their necks out and the Canadians did. They said, 'We'll risk our diplomatic standing, our lives, by harbouring six Americans because it's the right thing to do.' Because of that, their lives were saved."[14]


Does anybody mind if I call Ben Affleck a Dbag? Because yeah, he is one. Yep, Dbag.

 

[Rolandred]

I always think that a first trip abroad will reenforce one’s enthusiasm to explore other cultures if it is a positive, rewarding one. And this chance increases when the choice of destination enables the person to easily communicate with the people of that place, other than asking directions for a museum or buying a beer, which one can even manage with hand gestures.

However, I also respect the perception that views cultural tourism as a visit to the zoo, where one does not essentially need extensive verbal communication and feels even safer by limiting his/her social interaction with the locals.

It is a cultural thing perhaps. We should all respect each others' views.

...

Yes I think we should respect each other's views...but I just wanted to know why you thought a first time traveler from America should only choose northern Europe to visit?.... I do not get a straight answer.

I think SS would have been fine in Turkey or north europe or southern Europe Had it not been for the unfortunate tragedy she met...I am praying this terrible man who attacked and most likely killed her will be brought to justice.

 

[CMac2]

It is very likely that the person who committed this crime has killed before. These types of criminals depend on chance, there is nothing sloppy or expert about their motives.

Some killers/criminals are hard to catch due exactly to their disorganization.

And let’s just speculate that Ziya is some kind of predator. With the little we know about his way of life, he would be at an advantage.

His environment would provide him with all the things he needs. What need would there be to carry a weapon when you can easily pluck out a brick from your own wall? Or a rock resting at your front door. You have any unseen hidden spot to hide if you ever need to make yourself vanish.

And the fact that Ziya had no permanent address probably helped him go undetected for so long. His trail would be haphazard, a nightmare for those attempting to track him.

And it’s interesting that most killers are almost always caught after they slip up. Maybe this crime was Ziya’s downfall as a criminal because he drew so much attention to himself.

Articles written by Turkish women have been posted on this thread stating that, had Sarai been one of their own, the amount of resources to catch the perp would prove insufficient.

But I somehow believe Sarai’s being a woman had little to do with her death.

“A man is much more than the worst thing he has ever done.”

Good people do bad things all the time, and vis versa. Ziya’s age is irrelevant. Age meant nothing when so many other serial killers or criminals were apprehended in their later years.

That’s what happens sometimes when cold cases are solved.

If he is completely innocent and the cloud of suspicion has unfairly hovered over him, I will be surprised.

I’m almost 100% convinced he had some involvement.

I think my post was misunderstood. I am not saying I doubt his involvement. I believe he is involved. I am merely surprised that, IF sex was the motive (as many have speculated) he does not have a criminal record that indicates such a thing. Yes, many serial predators are caught only in their later years, but my point was that I find it highly unlikely that he started preying on women at 50 years old. Either something unrelated to sex caused him to kill SS or he has many victims from the past.

That said, if the way SS was killed is his standard MO, it is surprising he has never been caught. While there are disorganized killers, it is doubtful he remained undetected for any real period of time by leaving his DNA under his victims' nails and then going on the run in such an obviously guilty fashion.

He is not adept at this sort of thing, clearly. IMO he didnt kill her for the same types of reasons as Bundy killed women. He is not seasoned at this, and I would not be surprised to learn he's never done this before. Seems to me he felt he had no choice but to kill her, though I am at a loss as to why that may be. For all I know, he was hallucinating and thought she was a 3 headed monster trying to attack him. Who knows? But again, it seems HIGHLY unlikely he has remained undetected all these years if he is a serial predator, and if this is his MO.

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2

 

[diamond12]

For a tourist, any European country is capable of offering interesting experiences. Please accept my apologies if I offended you by including your homeland in the "no-no" list.

But I was thinking of the case a lone female traveler.

Let me paraphrase that: if a American female friend of mine came up to me and ask my advice on which European country to visit given that she wants to feel comfortable and she doesn't want being judged for traveling alone and want her lone trip to signal anyone that she is looking for a mate. Then I would assume that she would feel more comfortable in those countries where women are more integrated into social life. I would think there must be studies on this.

Snipped for space

I truly dislike to go offtopic, but I'm from South Europe (Italy), I can assure you that women here are perfectly integrated into social life. Nobody cares here if a woman travels alone, we have many solo female tourists here. Of course as in other countries they have to be careful who they decide to trust. I'm pretty sure I'd have the same problems in the UK or US.
The rate of women employment has nothing to do with that.
Ok nothing more to add, back to Sarai's case, the whole thing is so confusing I stopped posting:/

 

[CMac2]

Ok nothing more to add, back to Sarai's case, the whole thing is so confusing I stopped posting:/

I stopped posting for similar reasons. I think a lot of us did.

 

[SANDOVAL]

<<Maybe she asked some people she would like to go some place very different and she liked adventure. So they suggested Istanbul. Who knows?>>

I still think there was some connection, through her brother David, and through her church, with Turkey to begin with, as in before she started making friends with Turks on IG, because you don't just go on some photography site and start singling out Turks to chat with, unless there is some photographic connection between you and the Turks you meet on that site - which is possible, of course, if it happened that the Turkish members were showing/discussing photos that had some particular appeal to SS.

There are quite a number of Armenian churches in Staten Island, and SS's body was kept in Surp Yerrortuyan before being shipped back to the USA. I bet there's some connection between the Christian Pentecostal Church and the Armenian one in Istanbul, and maybe a connection between SS's brother and some Armenian church on Staten Island that precipitated the whole spark of interest in Turkey to begin with, which as noted doesn't fit the normal profile for a first-time visitor to Europe or a first-time traveler out of the country.

And I don't understand the comment about southern European countries, either. IME visiting Spain, France, Italy is quite the norm for first-time American travelers - welcoming people, lots of English speakers for those who don't speak foreign languages, beautiful scenery, great food, etc.

I was thinking that if SS walked around Saray Burnu (?), it was on purpose.
In googling saray/sarai there are restaurants and also a few places in the world which are 'namesakes', but other than a restaurant the 'saray' in Istambul looks easier to get to (i could be mistaken).
Possibly she had read a news article like this one:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/an-ancient-palace-ruined-in-istanbul.aspx?pageID=238&nid=13059
and wanted to see before they were all gone.

 

[alpmighty]

Eh those things could happen anywhere.
And frankly, if a guy touching a shoulder upset someone so much, they are definitely not the type of person who should be, or would enjoy travelling alone.

Where's alp? He was hot.

Have no fear, Alp is here! Give me some time to catch up.

 

[alpmighty]

To tell you the truth, I have never even been to Turkey.

After reading so many posts about it, I say why not now.

Yashim's sarcasm knows no boundaries.

 

[alpmighty]

Why is there an assumption that the body wasn't hers? Why do you think the FBI is trying to justify her death saying she was seen with criminal elements? The Turkish LE said that as well...Is not the FBI involved because she is a US citizen and the circumstances of her travel and death are unusual enough to raise red flags? Well - red flags for hundreds in their opinions out there on this whole case, but that is beside the point I guess...

What about the IG "friends"...the FBI surely must be investigating them...are not they the "criminal elements" the FBI and LE have been referring too?

Correction: FBI did not officially state she was seen with criminal elements, and if there are no new releases by Turkish LE, from the very beginning, it's been Turkish LE's official position that there was no reason to believe that SS was a drug mule or an intelligence asset. A NY tabloid cited an 'anonymous source' saying that SS was seen with criminal elements, and that to me is not by any means credible information.

 

[alpmighty]

New theories are always welcome and interesting! Who knows, someone here might just come up with an idea that will help LE solve the crime.

I'm still trying to catch up. Is there new credible information or leads suggesting that the body discovered in the walls may not be SS?

I would say if there's no such recent credible lead, assuming LE would establish identity by various cross-checks would be the safest way to think. After all her husband traveled and identified her, and I have no doubt DNA was pulled off the body to establish a possible match with SS blood relatives.

 

[Herat]

Yay yay.

alpmighty is back!

 

[Herat]

Time for some rational and documented information.

without you alp, we have resorted to discussing Z's potential as a discus thrower.......