GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[SANDOVAL]

I wrote all the reasons why SS can't be a CIA asset.

But let's for a second say, she was.

If she ended up getting murdered for any reason, it would not make news. Not in the United States, not in Turkey. There is a wall of stars in Langley for those who are fallen during CIA service, anonymously commemorating their sacrifices for a reason.

This is just was i trying to say in: ''if she was you would have to say she was not'', but i was NOT referring to SS.
I was referring to the drowned 'suicide' victim (seems like a handy explanation in istambul).
So possibly, as suggested here, the drowned lady was the one with shady connections to 'criminal elements' of some kind. The surveillance got her mixed up with innocent SS.who was grabbed by mistake.

 

[Yashim]

Who's to say the other woman was Turkish? Maybe she was an American spy they were looking for, maybe she was Russian....also I'm just saying, im pretty sure spies are versed in many languages and accents.

It's only in the movies. No matter how good they speak Turkish, I can always tell a foreigner and sometimes their nationality too.

I can even tell what they had for lunch, of course not solely based on their accents.

...

 

[ThinkHard]

Early on I had the theory of her getting mixed up in a crime by accident. (The drug mule theory) but I also considered a schizophrenic random attack.

Obviously the man has issues as demonstrated by his actual family and not arm chair psychoanalysis of a complete stranger online. Usually when someone has a mental issue and can't be contained "something" finally happens like this.

There have been many many issues like this in the US. Two that come to mind is the man that pushed the woman in front of the train and the man that smashed a woman in the face with a brick.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94715&page=1

Here's just one example:

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2013/01/subway-attack-philadelphia-man-throws-woman-tracks-video/

Z is obviously mentally ill. There's no need at all to turn this into a cloak and dagger game.

You mean, in your opinion Z is obviously mentally ill right?

Because none of us really know.

I don't think it can be determined either by the accounts of his family and friends, some say he liked to live on the street, some say he couldn't slaughter a chicken, some say he acted perfectly normal....

Ziya spent three days in school, he might not have felt comfortable in main stream society because he always felt stupid around those people. It was reported he left home at 11 because he didn't get along with his stepdad . Perhaps his step dad was mentally and verbally abusive. Perhaps Ziya learned to not trust his family because no on stuck up for him or helped him then. Perhaps he preferred his independence over his families help. Perhaps that help came with strings attached.

The point is we don't know why Ziya chose the street, but their is myriad of possibities beyond mental illness that could have led to his choice.

Additionally even if he was to some degree mentally unstable, there is a huge range of mental conditions, and the majority of those do not lead to murder or violence.

None of us can fully understand who Z is, or his state of mind that day, same goes for Sarai. But to put him in an over simplified box, and to say he's crazy, so he must be it, that's it that crazy homeless guy, is an injustice to him, and injustice to this case.

Is it possible that it is really that simple, yes. But its also possible it was something else.

 

[SANDOVAL]

Your translation is accurate. Only thing you've missed is the male body was identified as there was ID on him and LE considers it a suicide case.

Another 'dismissive' sounding comment on yet another dead body......
So i'm beginning to think that Turkey is
A) ''really great''
B) A place where if you don't get murdered or drugged you feel suicidal.

 

[ThinkHard]

It's only in the movies. No matter how good they speak Turkish, I can always tell a foreigner and sometimes their nationality too.

I can even tell what they had for lunch, of course not solely based on their accents.

...

I totally get that. But who's to say that this woman they were hypothetically looking for was suppose to be Turkish. Maybe she was suppose to be American.

I mean plenty of Turks can't tell the difference between, American English, English English, Australian English, fluent English (as a second language) with another European accent. When I was speaking English and asked where I was from, and I said American, they'd always say "Really!" And I would always think to myself, "you heard me speak English can't you tell."

Also if someone is raised multilingual from birth, by native speakers of both languages, it is much harder to decipher an accent on them when speaking either language. The kids a nannied spoke fluent English, and sounded as American as you can get (with the exception of an occasional English accent due to a few BBC shows), and perfect Turkish, obviously because they were Turkish.

 

[alpmighty]

Alp,
I think you missed the point of my latest theory....I was NOT saying sarai was a spy....never thought she was. I was saying perhaps the woman in the water was a spy, sarai was mistaken for her, because hey shared a resemblance. Also explaining why we have heard nothing about this lady in the water, because if she was a spy why would we. If the CIA searching Z is true, then it might be because they knew who ever killed Sarai was really after this spy, and they want to know who was after their own and Z has info.
Admittedly it is a big theory, but it actually does fit what we know about the case, takes a few leaps, but does not contradict the stuff we know either...you know that measly 5%.

Forgive me if I missed your point.

But since the CIA involvement news came from Turkish media with the implicit statement that "in case Ziya has already passed the border into Syria, Turkish LE passed information on Ziya for CIA assets in the area to be on the lookout for his description", I still think that CIA may only be involved on the basis of their on the ground assets in Syria.

 

[alpmighty]

Is it really true?

Because before I wrote the message I did check the Military Act, which came into force in 1927 and went through several revisions (with last one being May 22, 2012). (In fact I had initially checked it for age limits).

http://www.asal.msb.gov.tr/kanun/1111_As.Kanunu.pdf

"Literacy Schools" were introduced by Provisional Articles in 1970, clearly stating the teaching assignments for those enlisted until 1975. Thus, after 1975, I assumed there would be no legal basis for such assignments.

So I figured it must have turned into somewhat of a discretionary service.

I would think any formal arrangement would have to be based on the Military Act. Maybe I misinterpreted the deadline of 1975. Or maybe they just didn't think they needed to update it. Nobody would challenge such a positive, beneficial effort anyway.

...

Commanding officers does have incentive to facilitate in-service education of any conscripts, they do earn readiness points for such facilitation, which in turn expand their promotion opportunities.

Way of modern life is thus drilled into every conscript who might have stayed behind in catching up. Lack of such understanding and knowledge in part of conscripts is undesirable for the effectiveness and cohesion of any military unit.

 

[alpmighty]

A few comments from family is hardly grounds for a diagnosis. The guy had a tough life, and had lived on the streets since he was 11, that's where he felt comfortable. It is a far cry to assume from this he had a mental issue that would have propelled him to a crime such as murder.

You might know about military opps, but I know psychology.

Are we sure Ziya lived on the streets since he was 11? Because there is ample evidence that he held a steady job lately and was living in an apartment provided by his brother? Add to that his family is well off according to lower middle class standards. He wasn't living on the streets out of need.

 

[alpmighty]

If he really only had 6 months to live, then he wouldn't be too worried about the light murder sentences in Turkey. He might even get medical leave like the U.S. Embassy bomber...

I don't suppose you would be able to get medical leave if you're doing time for a 'hard' crime such as murder. However, if Ziya is diagnosed with a mental disorder and he's found guilty, he might be sent to a mental care facility under confinement instead of prison.

 

[Yashim]

This is just was i trying to say in: ''if she was you would have to say she was not'', but i was NOT referring to SS.
I was referring to the drowned 'suicide' victim (seems like a handy explanation in istambul).
So possibly, as suggested here, the drowned lady was the one with shady connections to 'criminal elements' of some kind. The surveillance got her mixed up with innocent SS.who was grabbed by mistake.

Very very OT, but you just wrote Istambul instead of Istanbul. That is so cool.

When speaking fast, people, or native people of Istanbul, pronounce it as 'stambul. Kind of with a silent I in the beginning of the word. It was originally used when referring to the Old City, their best approximation of the Greek "Stinpoli", due to difficulty of pronouncing nb or np (for Turks). That's how the name, Istanbul originated.

...

 

[ThinkHard]

Are we sure Ziya lived on the streets since he was 11? Because there is ample evidence that he held a steady job lately and was living in an apartment provided by his brother? Add to that his family is well off according to lower middle class standards. He wasn't living on the streets out of need.

There were a few articles posted on this thread, I'm not sure how far back they are, but they discuss Z's life, and it specifically discusses that his father died when he was an infant (10 days old I think), that he was enrolled in school at the age of 10, lasted 3 days, and began living on the streets at 11.

And no one said he was living out on the street because he had too, I believe he chose too. But I think the reasons for his choice, as I specified in another post, are not because he was bat **** crazy....at least not violent crazy.

 

[citizenofworld]

Forgive me if I missed your point.

But since the CIA involvement news came from Turkish media with the implicit statement that "in case Ziya has already passed the border into Syria, Turkish LE passed information on Ziya for CIA assets in the area to be on the lookout for his description", I still think that CIA may only be involved on the basis of their on the ground assets in Syria.

If Turkish officials had released a photo or footage of Ziya in the first place, then he wouldn't have been able to go to the Syrian border, someone would rat him out. For some reason, I think law enforcement didn't want the public to know they were looking for him. Maybe they were afraid someone would kill him before they could interrogate him?

 

[alpmighty]

This is very interesting: but i was referring to the red shirt drowned lady.
'Spy' is maybe not a good word, i don't know, but a 'foreign agent' could work for any country without being CIA.

Disposal of foreign undercover operatives when they are detected in a country they are operating in is hardly befitting to modern tradecraft. Such operatives are often prisoned for making an exchange with the country of allegiance for a benefit. Exceptions to the rule are authoritarian regimes, but even in them they are given trials before executions and such.

Modern democracies do not give on the spot, summary executions to the foreign agents they detect.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't suppose you would be able to get medical leave if you're doing time for a 'hard' crime such as murder. However, if Ziya is diagnosed with a mental disorder and he's found guilty, he might be sent to a mental care facility under confinement instead of prison.

But this supposed mental issue that would cause such violence, and put him in a psychiatric facility, I believe would also be apparent during his time in military service.

If its true he was jailed for 7 years, starting at 15, that would be he was roughly 22 when he was released and subsuquently due to serve his term in the military.

Most types of illnesses that are severe enough to cause the kind of behavior people want to label Z with, would have been apparent at this age.

 

[alpmighty]

This is just was i trying to say in: ''if she was you would have to say she was not'', but i was NOT referring to SS.
I was referring to the drowned 'suicide' victim (seems like a handy explanation in istambul).
So possibly, as suggested here, the drowned lady was the one with shady connections to 'criminal elements' of some kind. The surveillance got her mixed up with innocent SS.who was grabbed by mistake.

I personally think that 'criminal elements' thing was tabloid speculation and it has no substance.

If I'm wrong though, it would be hard for an anonymous FBI source to make such a statement. Professionals like 'anonymous FBI sources' rarely make mistakes to reach such conclusions.

 

[ThinkHard]

Disposal of foreign undercover operatives when they are detected in a country they are operating in is hardly befitting to modern tradecraft. Such operatives are often prisoned for making an exchange with the country of allegiance for a benefit. Exceptions to the rule are authoritarian regimes, but even in them they are given trials before executions and such.

Modern democracies do not give on the spot, summary executions to the foreign agents they detect.

No Alp, we are not saying the government took her out by disposing of her in the water, we were suggesting in theory that whoever she was collecting info on took her out.

 

[ThinkHard]

@alp

I really appreciate all your knowledge, but I think you need to go back a few pages to read the very long two posts I wrote (if you haven't already) , that is what some of this discussion is revolving around.

You keep informing us of things that do,not really apply to the discussion. Though the information is great, and again appreciated. I think you'd benefit us all more to at least be on the same page in terms of frame of reference.

Because you keep reading post and falsely inferring what we are implying or theororizing on, so its kind of confusing when you jump in and say something that isn't really at all what we are saying.

I hope you understand, we value your information. Just please read back a bit, so the information your discussing is actually in relation to the theory we were discussing. Because it seems by what your writing, you haven't read back enough, and are misunderstanding posts and applying your own meaning to them, which is not the one they are intended.

 

[alpmighty]

Is it really true?

Because before I wrote the message I did check the Military Act, which came into force in 1927 and went through several revisions (with last one being May 22, 2012). (In fact I had initially checked it for age limits).

http://www.asal.msb.gov.tr/kanun/1111_As.Kanunu.pdf

"Literacy Schools" were introduced by Provisional Articles in 1970, clearly stating the teaching assignments for those enlisted until 1975. Thus, after 1975, I assumed there would be no legal basis for such assignments.

So I figured it must have turned into somewhat of a discretionary service.

I would think any formal arrangement would have to be based on the Military Act. Maybe I misinterpreted the deadline of 1975. Or maybe they just didn't think they needed to update it. Nobody would challenge such a positive, beneficial effort anyway.

...

I forgot to add, 1975 deadline is related to a change at that time which made elementary education (which bestows literacy) mandatory, and probably it was assumed at the same time, there is no more need to regulate illiteracy cases on a regulation level.

70s also happen to be the time that all Turkish military doctrine and regulations started to mirror TRADOC (US Army Training and Doctrine Command) practices in light of the NATO standardization efforts. Even military talimname (manuals) are numbered after that date exactly as the same with TRADOC field manuals. For instance, FM (Field manual) 01 would be in Turkish Army, ST (Saha talimnamesi, saha means field) 01. Perhaps it was a simple oversight during the transformation of the time, as US Military hardly dealt with illiteracy.

 

[SANDOVAL]

Disposal of foreign undercover operatives when they are detected in a country they are operating in is hardly befitting to modern tradecraft. Such operatives are often prisoned for making an exchange with the country of allegiance for a benefit. Exceptions to the rule are authoritarian regimes, but even in them they are given trials before executions and such.

Modern democracies do not give on the spot, summary executions to the foreign agents they detect.

At least not openly.....but i was not thinking of being assassinated by 'authorities'.
There is still the mafia, organized crime, family feuds etc.

 

[Fantazteko]

It sounds like they initially had witness accounts of Z being seen with Sarai. They may have tasted items for DNA in his "cave" to match the blood and nail scrapings found on her. But they wouldn't know for sure that was his DNA in that "cave." Nor would they know for sure that the hair found on the pillow was Z's hair. So test the siblings to see if there was a family match, and there was. And the hair on the pillow matched the DNA found on Sarai.

So they used familial DNA to identify him.

This was the same tool used to nab the Grim Sleeper, who went undetected for a whole decade, until resurfacing again.

He appeared on a TV dating show. Police finally caught up to him in his old age.