GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #6

[alpmighty]

Fellow sleuthers, I may have to take a brief break from actively contributing during which I will relegate myself to observing the discussion here. I feel we have ran out of credible information regarding the case lately and are unfortunately chasing our tails, giving weight and consideration to theories with lesser plausibility than what is apparent and evident to us. Without a possible breakthrough relating the case or new developments and new release of information, in my opinion no further reasonable thought can be formed on SS murder.

I appreciate every angle of thought presented here by my fellow sleuthers, even those which I've stated to find as implausible, but simply we were not able to come up with anything sensible lately. This makes me wary of possible disrespect, however unintended, we might be bestowing upon SS family considering the high publicity of Websleuths community.

If the need arises for my opinions or translation, please feel free to let me know by any means available. I will always be glad to assist and be able to respond to PMs promptly.

 

[ThinkHard]

Here it is.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...her-fled-Turkey-police-warned-pinned-him.html 'Forget killing a person, he can't even cut a chicken. Ziya was the same as always. There was nothing odd about him.

I had to run out just as that whole convo was going on and didn't have time to look it up myself. I just got home, found it and was about to post it when I saw your post. thanks! I new it was in one of the articles we had read.

 

[SANDOVAL]

Here it is.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...her-fled-Turkey-police-warned-pinned-him.html 'Forget killing a person, he can't even cut a chicken. Ziya was the same as always. There was nothing odd about him.

Thankyou! This is a much more Anglicised version than the ones i saw before, more comprehensible.
Did they mean 'he has always been unbalanced' i wonder, or were they implying that his odd behaviour seemed as if the whole murder in Istanbul thing had 'unbalanced' his normal resilience?

 

[Chewy]

Here it is.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...her-fled-Turkey-police-warned-pinned-him.html 'Forget killing a person, he can't even cut a chicken. Ziya was the same as always. There was nothing odd about him.

Thank you so much! :seeya:

This same article also says, this

Two witnesses also told police they saw him on the day Sarai was killed and that he had scratches on his arms.
Mahmut G, a resident of the district where Sierra’s body was found, also told the police that he had seen Ziya T in the neighborhood that day and he had 'scars that might have been caused by nails'.
'I asked him what it was, and he told me that he fell in the bushes,' Mahmut G told the police, according to the Hurryiet Daily News.
Another witness identified as Hasan B. said he saw Sarai taking photos of the city walls. Ten minutes later, he heard screaming.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-police-warned-pinned-him.html#ixzz2M9RsoBvM
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

And so we have a person saying that says "he'd never hurt a fly" who turns out to be a killer. I don't think he killed her on purpose, I think it was a robbery gone wrong. Butit is what it is.

However if we're going to accept this as a reputable source then the other two statements made by witnesses would count as well right? That he was covered with scratches and bruises.

So we've got physical observations and witnesses hearing screams juxtaposed with someone's opinion of their friend?

Not sure which to believe.


But again thanks for saving us some time here.

 

[ThinkHard]

I proposed it because other items were taken. But you just ignore that fact.

Now that we have an implicated suspect we also find that he has a history of theft and served seven years in prison for theft. But you just ignore that fact as well.

I did not ignore the fact other things were taken, not at all, on the contrary actually, I just arrived at the conclusion that the motive for what was taken and what was not taken was not based on the motive to make a profit off of them. And thus ponder other motives under which the electronics could have been taken.

We have a different perspective on it. I don't think one is any more credible then the other at this point.

 

[ThinkHard]

No they aren't. There's no posts where people of authority state that he wouldn't hurt a chicken.

If you want to assert this just back it up

"Authority" is not really a good choice of words, his family isn't exactly an authority on mental illness either.

But the link with the "couldn't cut a chicken" has been posted, and was said by a friend who knew him since childhood.

So I would put a quote by family and a quote by a friend on an equal playing field in regards to how we view his potential "mental" status. We should keep in mind the entire picture after all. Not just selected quotes that serve preconceived notions.

 

[Chewy]

I did not ignore the fact other things were taken, not at all, on the contrary actually, I just arrived at the conclusion that the motive for what was taken and what was not taken was not based on the motive to make a profit off of them. And thus ponder other motives under which the electronics could have been taken.

We have a different perspective on it. I don't think one is any more credible then the other at this point.

Well I believe that suggesting that the motive for Ziya T to only take the electronics is because SS was mistaken for a covert spy and Ziya was hired to kidnap and kill the other woman but mistakenly grabbed Sarai, took her down to the walls and stole her electronics, and regrettably left her gold jewelry even though he could sell them for their weight in troy ounces at any market.....is a very bizarre theory

I don't think it's as credible as a homeless guy who maybe had a bad dose of drugs, overreacting during an attempted mugging and killing a woman then grabbing her stuff and running away, after a few days continuing in his paranoid delusions by heading to Syria and saying he was being framed and that he'd be dead in six months anyway. This same guy with his DNA on the body of the victim and a history of crime.


<modsnip> But I'll wait for more real information to unfold.

Enjoy the thread.

 

[alpmighty]

Here's the translation of a Turkish article, as requested by SophieRose.

It was established that Sarai Sierra, whoose body was discovered in old city walls near Cankurtaran was murdered in a gallery 100 meters away from the location her lifeless body was discovered.

February 14th, 2013 Thursday 20.20

A luminal examination revealed that Sarai's body was moved from the gallery, in which traces of Sarai's blood was discovered to the gallery and concealed there. In addition, Police discovered bloody rocks in the same gallery which has been established as where Sarai was killed.

So far through the investigation, Police have already gathered blood and DNA samples from 30 usual suspects. A manhunt is ongoing for 10 more individuals that were reported as living in the vicinity of the walls by witness statements. Police have raided the domiciles of those individuals, including the ones reported in other provinces but have yet to apprehend any of them.

The individual nicknamed 'Laz Ziya' is reported to be an usual suspect just like the other individuals and Police is actively pursuing to apprehend him to obtain blood samples and a statement.

From the statements Police obtained so far, various identities were established to be living in the vicinity of the old walls and among them are those who have prior records of theft, substance abuse and dealing. A high level Police contact has stated "Like the individual whose name was mentioned in press reports, other individuals we are searching for have from time to time resided in the vicinity of the old walls. We aim to apprehend all to obtain their statements and their blood samples to compare with foreign DNA that was detected on the body of Sarai. At this time, all those individuals are considered in the investigation as usual suspects."

Authorities stated that search for relevant materials on the crime scene is still ongoing and DNA matches are being sought after from anything that can be grabbed from such materials. It is viewed by the authorities that Sarai Sierra went to the old city walls for photographing them and came by her murderer there, while doing so.

THE SEARCH AT SAFRANBOLU

On the other hand, Z.T. a.k.a. Laz Ziya, who is claimed to be a paper collector operating out of the old city walls and to be the perpetrator of Sarai Sierra's murder was sought after in a recent raid in Safranbolu county of Karabük province. According to Karabük Police's press release, Z.T.'s relatives homes were raided and searches were conducted, but Z.T., who is registered to the census records of Yenice county of Karabük province couldn't be apprehended.

 

[Fantazteko]

Here it is.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...her-fled-Turkey-police-warned-pinned-him.html 'Forget killing a person, he can't even cut a chicken. Ziya was the same as always. There was nothing odd about him.

A common refrain that serves no purpose.

It’s not every day we’re confronted with the possibility that someone we know could very well be a monster.

So what Ziya’s family and friends are saying is understandable, though it changes nothing with regards to the case.

I’ve seen this same reaction countless times when following other crimes, and the family always looks heartbroken and in a state of denial.

I reserve some sympathy for them.

Be that as it may, their grief and shame still cannot make the number 1 suspect look any better now.

More often than not, it turns out that the person was responsible for whatever crime he or she was accused of.

Human beings aren’t so basic and easy to understand. Our behavior can be studied and predicted sometimes, but the reality is that this is seldom reliable.

Anyone can be driven to commit the unthinkable.

We often surprise ourselves with the things we do and say. There are capabilities in us we are not even aware of that violate our better judgement and morality, which emerge only under very peculiar circumstances.

We do seem to be going in circles...

 

[ThinkHard]

Here's the translation of a Turkish article, as requested by SophieRose.

It was established that Sarai Sierra, whoose body was discovered in old city walls near Cankurtaran was murdered in a gallery 100 meters away from the location her lifeless body was discovered.

February 14th, 2013 Thursday 20.20

A luminal examination revealed that Sarai's body was moved from the gallery, in which traces of Sarai's blood was discovered to the gallery and concealed there. In addition, Police discovered bloody rocks in the same gallery which has been established as where Sarai was killed.

So far through the investigation, Police have already gathered blood and DNA samples from 30 usual suspects. A manhunt is ongoing for 10 more individuals that were reported as living in the vicinity of the walls by witness statements. Police have raided the domiciles of those individuals, including the ones reported in other provinces but have yet to apprehend any of them.

The individual nicknamed 'Laz Ziya' is reported to be an usual suspect just like the other individuals and Police is actively pursuing to apprehend him to obtain blood samples and a statement.

From the statements Police obtained so far, various identities were established to be living in the vicinity of the old walls and among them are those who have prior records of theft, substance abuse and dealing. A high level Police contact has stated "Like the individual whose name was mentioned in press reports, other individuals we are searching for have from time to time resided in the vicinity of the old walls. We aim to apprehend all to obtain their statements and their blood samples to compare with foreign DNA that was detected on the body of Sarai. At this time, all those individuals are considered in the investigation as usual suspects."

Authorities stated that search for relevant materials on the crime scene is still ongoing and DNA matches are being sought after from anything that can be grabbed from such materials. It is viewed by the authorities that Sarai Sierra went to the old city walls for photographing them and came by her murderer there, while doing so.

THE SEARCH AT SAFRANBOLU

On the other hand, Z.T. a.k.a. Laz Ziya, who is claimed to be a paper collector operating out of the old city walls and to be the perpetrator of Sarai Sierra's murder was sought after in a recent raid in Safranbolu county of Karabük province. According to Karabük Police's press release, Z.T.'s relatives homes were raided and searches were conducted, but Z.T., who is registered to the census records of Yenice county of Karabük province couldn't be apprehended.

If they are a actively searching for 10 suspects, I wonder why it is we are on,y hearing so much specific information on only Ziya.

 

[Chewy]

Did you notice it was written 12 days ago?

 

[SANDOVAL]

If it is true.....that Z fled because some LE contact tipped him off ''it will be pinned on you'', doesn't this suggest that LE all along think it was NOT him?....this actually makes no sense (of course).
Unless....and i post this again for the 3rd time, not getting any responses or opinions on previously postings:
It was said that many more surveillance cameras had been installed sometime recently.
I asked : are these used to continually monitor traffic?
Are there in fact, surveillance cameras around the railroad tracks?
Is it possible that the murder was caught on surveillance cameras?
OR, IF IT WAS NOT,
and YET there ARE cameras in that area....
is that why it had been suggested that the murder took place elsewhere and the body was moved to the area it was found (including the place 100 meters away with blood stains).
The point being that IF it was caught on camera, and a LE contact warned Z to run before''it was pinned on him''
THIS WOULD MEAN: that LE knows all along that it was not him.

 

[ThinkHard]

A common refrain that serves no purpose.

It’s not every day we’re confronted with the possibility that someone we know could very well be a monster.

So what Ziya’s family and friends are saying is understandable, though it changes nothing with regards to the case.

I’ve seen this same reaction countless times when following other crimes, and the family always looks heartbroken and in a state of denial.

I reserve some sympathy for them.

Be that as it may, their grief and shame still cannot make the number 1 suspect look any better now.

More often than not, it turns out that the person was responsible for whatever crime he or she was accused of.

Human beings aren’t so basic and easy to understand. Our behavior can be studied and predicted sometimes, but the reality is that this is seldom reliable.

Anyone can be driven to commit the unthinkable.

We often surprise ourselves with the things we do and say. There are capabilities in us we are not even aware of that violate our better judgement and morality, which emerge only under very peculiar circumstances.

We do seem to be going in circles...

I agree. This article was only retrieved to point out that even from the people who knew him best reports are conflicting. One poster was basing their claim on Ziyas mental instability based on his families statements. This was referenced only to show others who knew him well had other interpretations of Ziya.

I really do not think we can know what Ziya was like based on friends and family statements, however if we are going to use them to affect our judgement about who he was, we need to evaluate the range of statements, and not just statements that support a bias.

But again I agree with you, and I wrote a post on it previously family often do not know their family members as well as they think they do, they judge them by their own bias.

 

[ThinkHard]

If it is true.....that Z fled because some LE contact tipped him off ''it will be pinned on you'', doesn't this suggest that LE all along think it was NOT him?....this actually makes no sense (of course).
Unless....and i post this again for the 3rd time, not getting any responses or opinions on previously postings:
It was said that many more surveillance cameras had been installed sometime recently.
I asked : are these used to continually monitor traffic?
Are there in fact, surveillance cameras around the railroad tracks?
Is it possible that the murder was caught on surveillance cameras?
OR, IF IT WAS NOT,
and YET there ARE cameras in that area....
is that why it had been suggested that the murder took place elsewhere and the body was moved to the area it was found (including the place 100 meters away with blood stains).
The point being that IF it was caught on camera, and a LE contact warned Z to run before''it was pinned on him''
THIS WOULD MEAN: that LE knows all along that it was not him.

I can't answer all of your question because I just do not know. I do not think cameras would be on the railroad tracks, at the stations likely, but not on the tracks in btw the stations.

Some report stated that The camera saw sarai across Kennedy (seaside side) and then she crossed the road and the lost sight of her, so I'm thinking that the cameras point out toward the road, and not at the walls themselves.

 

[SANDOVAL]

As far as a relative saying 'he is unbalanced', i would be interested to learn if Turkish has 2 different words like spanish does for 'to be' (ser/estar)
Did this relative imply that Z has always been and is so constituted as to be always 'unbalanced'......
or, did it mean that 'right now, as regards his odd behaviour' we feel he has become unbalanced ('unhinged by it all)???

 

[ThinkHard]

Ok I was thinking it might be a good idea to try to go back to the basics, as in what do we know as FACT....what have we heard that is substantiated by LE?

Then I think we should look at what is hearsay, reported by media but without any confirmation.

Maybe it will help us see something we are missing, or make as realize some of the things we thought were facts were actually assumptions we were holding on to.

Lets also try to go back and source this info as much as possible.

 

[alpmighty]

As far as a relative saying 'he is unbalanced', i would be interested to learn if Turkish has 2 different words like spanish does for 'to be' (ser/estar)
Did this relative imply that Z has always been and is so constituted as to be always 'unbalanced'......
or, did it mean that 'right now, as regards his odd behaviour' we feel he has become unbalanced ('unhinged by it all)???

If you are referring to the accounts of Ziya's brother and mother, they were stating that Ziya has always been unstable and naive.

 

[alpmighty]

I agree. This article was only retrieved to point out that even from the people who knew him best reports are conflicting. One poster was basing their claim on Ziyas mental instability based on his families statements. This was referenced only to show others who knew him well had other interpretations of Ziya.

I really do not think we can know what Ziya was like based on friends and family statements, however if we are going to use them to affect our judgement about who he was, we need to evaluate the range of statements, and not just statements that support a bias.

But again I agree with you, and I wrote a post on it previously family often do not know their family members as well as they think they do, they judge them by their own bias.

Not just family statements. Ziya's life story, his choice of quitting a regular paying job, abandoning an apartment that was provided to him by his family to live the life of a derelict, a drifter, sleeping on streets, collecting garbage does not relate well with any pattern of rational behavior. Add to that, even if he was unable to function around a daily routine, his family, being rural and relatively well off, would have offered him sanctuary. But he wanted to live on streets, he wanted to forego everything, he wanted to collect garbage and sleep in caves.

How is this rational behavior? If this makes sense to anybody, then perhaps I'm deranged and mentally unstable myself? Perhaps giving up a home on with a roof on top, giving up a regular paying job, choosing to collect paper and to sleep in caves and on streets is a perfectly rational choice when it comes to deciding how you live? Then it would mean I have wasted all my life so far. I should start correcting my ways by selling my degrees as scrap paper!

Even that "he wouldn't even hurt a chicken" remark provided by his childhood friend was followed on by "but I wouldn't know how he would be after getting high on glue, smoking weed or inhaling thinner, I wouldn't vouch for him if he was under the influence".

Moreover, "This is going to be pinned on you" story was provided to the same childhood friend by Ziya himself, who was cynical towards the same story.

 

[alpmighty]

Here's the translation of a Turkish article, as requested by SophieRose.

It was established that Sarai Sierra, whoose body was discovered in old city walls near Cankurtaran was murdered in a gallery 100 meters away from the location her lifeless body was discovered.

February 14th, 2013 Thursday 20.20

A luminal examination revealed that Sarai's body was moved from the gallery, in which traces of Sarai's blood was discovered to the gallery and concealed there. In addition, Police discovered bloody rocks in the same gallery which has been established as where Sarai was killed.

So far through the investigation, Police have already gathered blood and DNA samples from 30 usual suspects. A manhunt is ongoing for 10 more individuals that were reported as living in the vicinity of the walls by witness statements. Police have raided the domiciles of those individuals, including the ones reported in other provinces but have yet to apprehend any of them.

The individual nicknamed 'Laz Ziya' is reported to be an usual suspect just like the other individuals and Police is actively pursuing to apprehend him to obtain blood samples and a statement.

From the statements Police obtained so far, various identities were established to be living in the vicinity of the old walls and among them are those who have prior records of theft, substance abuse and dealing. A high level Police contact has stated "Like the individual whose name was mentioned in press reports, other individuals we are searching for have from time to time resided in the vicinity of the old walls. We aim to apprehend all to obtain their statements and their blood samples to compare with foreign DNA that was detected on the body of Sarai. At this time, all those individuals are considered in the investigation as usual suspects."

Authorities stated that search for relevant materials on the crime scene is still ongoing and DNA matches are being sought after from anything that can be grabbed from such materials. It is viewed by the authorities that Sarai Sierra went to the old city walls for photographing them and came by her murderer there, while doing so.

THE SEARCH AT SAFRANBOLU

On the other hand, Z.T. a.k.a. Laz Ziya, who is claimed to be a paper collector operating out of the old city walls and to be the perpetrator of Sarai Sierra's murder was sought after in a recent raid in Safranbolu county of Karabük province. According to Karabük Police's press release, Z.T.'s relatives homes were raided and searches were conducted, but Z.T., who is registered to the census records of Yenice county of Karabük province couldn't be apprehended.

Note: This article was posted before LE made a match between Ziya's DNA and the DNA obtained from a blood stain on SS' shirt. The search at Safranbolu resulted in LE grabbing samples from Ziya's relatives domiciles, such samples are either reported to be belonging to Ziya directly (his hair on pillows as he stopped by there before bailing out to Hatay) or was familial DNA grabbed from his mother and brother.

 

[Chewy]

Not just family statements. Ziya's life story, his choice of quitting a regular paying job, abandoning an apartment that was provided to him by his family to live the life of a derelict, a drifter, sleeping on streets, collecting garbage does not relate well with any pattern of rational behavior. Add to that, even if he was unable to function around a daily routine, his family, being rural and relatively well off, would have offered him sanctuary. But he wanted to live on streets, he wanted to forego everything, he wanted to collect garbage and sleep in caves.

How is this rational behavior? If this makes sense to anybody, then perhaps I'm deranged and mentally unstable myself? Perhaps giving up a home on with a roof on top, giving up a regular paying job, choosing to collect paper and to sleep in caves and on streets is a perfectly rational choice when it comes to deciding how you live? Then it would mean I have wasted all my life so far. I should start correcting my ways by selling my degrees as scrap paper!

Even that "he wouldn't even hurt a chicken" remark provided by his childhood friend was followed on by "but I wouldn't know how he would be after getting high on glue, smoking weed or inhaling thinner, I wouldn't vouch for him if he was under the influence".

Moreover, "This is going to be pinned on you" story was provided to the same childhood friend by Ziya himself, who was cynical towards the same story.

That's what I don't understand as well. We're not just talking about someone's opinion and it's family versus friends.

We're talking about a man who has been homeless since he was 11 years old, in jail for theft and btw alpmighty isn't 7 years a long time for just stealing over there?

And one who gave up a home and chose to pick garbage and live on the streets. We have people like that here in NYC as well and they are usually mentally ill. It's easier for them to be the ignored weirdo on the street than the whacko in the apartment building that constantly has the cops called.

Not to mention that one look at the mans picture is like HELLO?

But hey, if his friends think he's cool then it must be a fact. :what: