TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

[thefragile7393]

true. A psychopath has to want to change. Here lies the problem. Can we have them involuntary committed?

Being a psycho/sociopath is not a reason to involuntarily get someone into treatment. For one, not all are criminals. Having a personality disorder does not automatically make you a criminal. Many function in society without committing crimes. A good many that you will find in prison can be classified as one or the other but there’s just as many outside of prison walls that can be classified as having a disorder but have no violent or criminal history. So....no. Legally and ethically you can’t unless they repeatedly and consistently do things that cause harm to themselves or others or both, and even then it has to be shown that the disorder is what is causing this to happen. They know right from wrong and simply choose not to do it, unless there is a chemical mental illness or some other physical brain affliction causing the problem.

 

[kittythehare]

But notice the 1st sentence in my post.

Who said to take people out of the equation?

I'm pretty sure there is more than one factor in each of these mass killings. Personally I believe that when you try to figure out what happened there will be a comman phrase "he got a gun" in each story.

Look at the Washington Post articles I attached a earlier.
Why aren't other countries having the same problims?

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WE ARE HERE TO WORK ON ONE CASE..
The gun debate is another case..
Theres plenty of crime in other countries.. Middle East, Europe, Palestine.. etc..
We are trying to figure why this particular nut job just killed a group of people..
What was his motive? what factors affected his decision?
Still dont have a clue.

 

[bluesneakers]

true. A psychopath has to want to change. Here lies the problem. Can we have them involuntary committed?

No, absolutely not.

 

[kittythehare]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeedne...texas?bftwnews&utm_term=.su3VxVydx#.vd1z9zal9
Buzz is about o run a story on a video of church shooter, it may refer to the internal recording which continued throughout the massacre.. this is link given on twitter but story not up yet..

 

[CARIIS]

Unless I keep missing something I want to
get some context on threat to the MIL what was he angry about anyone know the theme of the conflict

 

[CARIIS]

Being a psycho/sociopath is not a reason to involuntarily get someone into treatment. For one, not all are criminals. Having a personality disorder does not automatically make you a criminal. Many function in society without committing crimes. A good many that you will find in prison can be classified as one or the other but there’s just as many outside of prison walls that can be classified as having a disorder but have no violent or criminal history. So....no. Legally and ethically you can’t unless they repeatedly and consistently do things that cause harm to themselves or others or both, and even then it has to be shown that the disorder is what is causing this to happen. They know right from wrong and simply choose not to do it, unless there is a chemical mental illness or some other physical brain affliction causing the problem.

The sad reality is there is nowhere to put any one. There are no facilities -basically are nation can only poorly do like a 72 hour max which often really ends up like being a 36 visit drug em up and out the door.

The private settings are expensive --for all practical purposes institutionalizing ended in the 70's

there are no facilities ...........

 

[CARIIS]

The thing is, not all psychopaths will end up killing folks or torturing puppies. They all do lack empathy, and the ability to love, or care about other's feelings, though. There seems to be a sub-group that are the Dahmers, Bundys, Radars, etc...

The others that don't fall into that sub-group? They go out into the world and become cut-throat businessmen, politicians, cops, or thriving business owners in the community. One may even work, or live, next to a psychopath who has never committed a crime. However, If they accidentally, ran over a child, while driving down the road, they'd feel nothing. They can become good at mimicking the appropriate emotions for the moment, to blend in, though.

Then, there's the ones who fall into, what I call, a "sub-group" of psychopaths (or, Anti Social Personality Disorder, is what the new name is these days, I guess) then they kill for the fun of it, or because they are bored, it's a hobby, etc... It is something that they enjoy, and they have zero remorse.

The large majority of folks who would be diagnosed as psychopaths/ASPD do not go on rampaging murder sprees, torture their neighbor's pet, or become serial killers.

CARIIS, pleasecorrect my if I'm wrong (I've read up on personality disorders, quite a bit, over the years, but IANA doctor of any kind.).

APA recognized psychopathy as a “specifier” of clinical antisocial personality disorder in the DSM-5, although psychopathy is still not an officially accepted clinical diagnosis. ... It is significant because the DSM-5 serves as a universal authority for the diagnosis of psychiatric disorders

Psychopathy is perhaps the most dramatized and talked about mental condition in the entertainment industry and media, and its definition has been twisted and manipulated along the way



term psychopath is often thrown around in criminal justice settings and hypothesizing media,

term has been inconsistently used in the medical community for years, but is now recognized as either a subcategory or extension of antisocial personality disorder.

occurs on a spectrum, not unlike autism.


Some media outlets or older educational materials may refer to psychopathy and sociopathy interchangeably, but the most recent research says this isn’t accurate.

psychopath simply doesn’t have one, he told WebMD. They will steal from you without feeling a twinge of guilt — though they may pretend to if they’re caught, so they aren’t “found out.” A sociopath, on the other hand, will understand that taking your money is wrong and may feel remorse, but it won’t be enough to stop their deviant behavior. A psychopath has less regard for others than a sociopath.

The most important characteristics of a psychopath revolve not around violence, but around lack of empathy, selfishness, and manipulation.

certain brain structures have been identified as key players in the processing of emotion and empathy — the lack of which is centrally important to psychopathy. Frontal brain regions

http://www.medicaldaily.com/psychopath-definition-may-be-different-you-thought-7-facts-about-psychopaths-361112

 

[CARIIS]

true. A psychopath has to want to change. Here lies the problem. Can we have them involuntary committed?

in reality in any of the personality DO there is little desire to change -- change into what

the core notion regarding any personality disorder--are there pervasive and enduring ways of looking and experiencing the world around them

there is not anything to change to -- it is what the individual knows, and their responses and perceptions of the world around is well just IS.

Its like breathing - it happens - automatically

Therapy can afford insight - but in truth - the PD are not treatable entities

imo the diagnosis is actually more helpful in terms of a clinician using the charactertics and ways people get there needs met , and the problems they experiance while living

I kinda think that because they are diagnosed it gives an illusion obe being treatment -- they are not - it is the only way the person knows how to be

moo

I think from the onset that is why (and still is ) my want to understand what Axis 1 stuff he was suffering which ended the way it did

Was he paranoid

Delusional - what were the themes of his delusional thinking

was he hearing command hallucinations

was there a visual component to his hallucinations

manifestations of religiosity

inner torment based on family interactions as it relates specifically to religion

drugs

We can comfortably believe he was anti social - but that does not really answer any specific questions regarding last Sunday does it?

That in and of itself IMO wont

We need IMO the neurotransmitter angle of his mental issues

It is like IMO Holmes, much was answered when it became clear that he was the joker that night.

That is what the Joker was -- mean and cruel and must kill

at some level that does put that night into some context as to why what happened that night

he was the joker....

same kind of thing with planned parenthood -- he was saving children, in his mind

Elliot overtly took the way people around him responded to him as rejection.

When the reality was people responded the way they did to him is because Aspergers results in peculiar interactions with other socially- it makes other uncomfortable.

A dear friend of mine son is autistic - and when Taylor was having a particularly difficult day in public when people looked we explained that he was autistic-- in 99% of the instances the stareing, the whispering, the fear often vanished and was replaced with empathy and compassionate for Taylor Judy and myself.

Back to church tradegy

was he god

was he the devil

were people after him

was god telling him to kill these people

it is moo but a tiff with a MIL does not explain much at all to me

there were imo neurotransmitters amuck - but how did those misfirings result in what happened when it happened when it did

Hopefully if ever discovered, the nature of threats, their context , and meaning to him - (specifically) might be really helpful in sorting out some of the above. \\moo

 

[possumheart]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeedne...texas?bftwnews&utm_term=.su3VxVydx#.vd1z9zal9
Buzz is about o run a story on a video of church shooter, it may refer to the internal recording which continued throughout the massacre.. this is link given on twitter but story not up yet..

They have this up at that link:
”[FONT=&quot]Tessa Brennaman, the ex-wife of Devin Kelley, spoke out Friday for the first time since the gunman killed 26 people at a Texas church, describing the abuse she suffered during their short marriage. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Kelley spent a year in military confinement after pleading guilty to domestic assault against Brennaman and her young son. On Friday, Brennaman told Inside Edition he once threatened to kill her while holding a gun to her head over a speeding ticket. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"He had a gun in his holster right here and he took that gun out and he put it to my temple, and he told me, 'Do you want to die? Do you want to die?'"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Kelley also threatened to kill her family, she said. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"He just had a lot of demons or hatred inside of him," she said.”[/FONT]

 

[pamelado2]

WE ARE HERE TO WORK ON ONE CASE..
The gun debate is another case..
Theres plenty of crime in other countries.. Middle East, Europe, Palestine.. etc..
We are trying to figure why this particular nut job just killed a group of people..
What was his motive? what factors affected his decision?
Still dont have a clue.

I am well aware of why we are here. And of course you realize I was responding to your previous post.
If you don't wish to discuss his ability to obtain semi automatic/automatic weapons then by all means, ignore my post.
Personally, I feel that is a huge factor, even more so than his mental health issues.
We can discuss what his motive, mental state may have been and why it may have been whatever it was, but it will never be more than speculation.
IMO, there are only 2 factors in this case - his mental defect and his ability to act.
How long would it take to fix the system when it comes to mental health? Is it possible?
Doesn't it make more sense to do what Australia did?

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[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Gun control and parent/family/friends of the shooter are off-limits.

Gun control discussions go absolutely nowhere and we are not in the business of solving all social justice issues.

Parents/family/friends of the shooter? The Rules state not to sleuth them. We know nothing about them so stop with trying to make stuff up about what you think their relationships might have been like.

:tyou:

Bump

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[Deleted member 158085]

The sad reality is there is nowhere to put any one. There are no facilities -basically are nation can only poorly do like a 72 hour max which often really ends up like being a 36 visit drug em up and out the door.

The private settings are expensive --for all practical purposes institutionalizing ended in the 70's

there are no facilities ...........

Especially for adults. In our area, even if an adult is suicidal, there are usually no beds. There are at least twice as many resources for teens where I'm at, but that's still not enough. There really is a massive shortage. Just trying to get an appointment with an actual psychiatrist takes months here. So you're left with talk therapists who can only help with part of the problem, and GPs handing out psych meds they often don't fully understand (and that sometimes make it worse).

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[Doghairrules]

In the Air Force, Texas Gunman Showed Signs of Depression and Rage
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/...com/2017/11/11/us/devin-kelley-air-force.html

“A serious injury to a child is worth more than a year in confinement,” said Mr. Christensen, who is now president of Protect Our Defenders, an advocacy group for victims of sexual assault and domestic violence in the military.

Mr. Christensen said that during his military career he had seen service members receive the same punishment Mr. Kelley got for merely abusing over-the-counter cough medicine.

After his guilty plea, Mr. Kelley served just eight months in military prison.


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[CARIIS]

with the trouble the fbi is having with the phone is this all related to fingerprints?

what other kinds of stuff do new cell phones
have that make it so hard

sh#t - if there is something so potent why aren't banks and hospitals using this tech??

cockpit voice recorders survive impact - why cant they break it and use readers I am not understanding some things about the cell phone issues they are having??

any help is appreciated--everyday we turn on the news and something else is hacked.

what is so amazing about these cell phones??

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Was this guy hoping to make the top of this list of deadliest mass shootings in the US?

[video=cnn;us/2013/09/18/tsr-foreman-looks-at-number-of-mass-shootings.cnn]http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/us/20-deadliest-mass-shootings-in-u-s-history-fast-facts/index.html[/video]

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[rsd1200]

The sad reality is there is nowhere to put any one. There are no facilities -basically are nation can only poorly do like a 72 hour max which often really ends up like being a 36 visit drug em up and out the door.

The private settings are expensive --for all practical purposes institutionalizing ended in the 70's

there are no facilities ...........

We have one, institution for the mentally ill. Just one. But we do have one. My kid works there. She worked there to support herself through college and went back after graduation. She'd wanted to go into another area of her field, but, mental illness is where she landed, and she found she likes the field, and working with the patients. I worry about her, as she's not very tall at all and there are some folks who can get kinda violent, but, she's worked there for several years now and never had anything really bad happen to her. She talks about the revolving door. The same same folks, come back, over and over. Some are homeless and have no one to help them with their meds. Some are over age and ditch them when they get out, and here they'll come back again in 2-3 months. The majority are not criminally insane, or will deliberately hurt you, she has told me. I tend to believe her, but I still worry a bit b/c they do have a small percentage that can, and will, try.

 

[rsd1200]

Especially for adults. In our area, even if an adult is suicidal, there are usually no beds. There are at least twice as many resources for teens where I'm at, but that's still not enough. There really is a massive shortage. Just trying to get an appointment with an actual psychiatrist takes months here. So you're left with talk therapists who can only help with part of the problem, and GPs handing out psych meds they often don't fully understand (and that sometimes make it worse).

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These community mental health walk-in gigs...no. To take your kid to a real psychologist, and psychiatrist, to obtain real help is just not there for a lot of rural communities, and, unless you have insurance, that covers these type of doctors, it's very costly, and many families just can't afford that. Also, if your family member, who has the need for mental health assistance, does not mesh with the only doctor in your area, well, then, you're back to square one.

 

[rsd1200]

with the trouble the fbi is having with the phone is this all related to fingerprints?

what other kinds of stuff do new cell phones
have that make it so hard

sh#t - if there is something so potent why aren't banks and hospitals using this tech??

cockpit voice recorders survive impact - why cant they break it and use readers I am not understanding some things about the cell phone issues they are having??

any help is appreciated--everyday we turn on the news and something else is hacked.

what is so amazing about these cell phones??

I think, it is, at least in part, due to the privacy issue of others, who may have sent to/received from, him, texts, calls, messages, photos, etc... However DPK had a phone with the fingerprint reader from what I read up-thread, and they didn't get the phone, to his fingerprints, within a certain amount of time. Phones aren't just phones anymore. They are tiny computers with the ability to make phone calls. People text others, share info, bank on them, buy things on them, use them as a camera, store credit card info on them etc... That's why they are so encrypted now. It's a much different phone than the old days when his mil might have had a voice recording that she could press play, on, at home, by her phone, with a cord stuck into a wall (of which, my parents still have).

 

[bluesneakers]

The sad reality is there is nowhere to put any one. There are no facilities -basically are nation can only poorly do like a 72 hour max which often really ends up like being a 36 visit drug em up and out the door.

The private settings are expensive --for all practical purposes institutionalizing ended in the 70's

there are no facilities ...........

There is prison. The American prison system is also its largest mental hospital.

 

[bluesneakers]

Unless I keep missing something I want to
get some context on threat to the MIL what was he angry about anyone know the theme of the conflict

JMO speculation - he believed she was coming between him and her daughter.