TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

[kittythehare]

His counselor at the hospital called the police, according to a police report, warning that Mr. Kelley had talked about killing his chain of command in the Air Force and told other patients he had recently bought guns online.
( Source nyt)

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

"She said she told Mr. Kelley that he was not acting normal and needed help.“He told me he would never have the nerve to kill people, he only killed animals,” she said."

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/...nl=top-stories&nlid=68626860&ref=cta&referer=

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[kittythehare]

While Mr. Kelley awaited court-martial, the Air Force sent him to a civilian psychiatric hospital in Santa Teresa, N.M., where, according to local emergency dispatch records, he was given medication for depression, anxiety and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and was considered a “high-risk patient.”

from NYT link below

THIS!!
ADHD..
all his life..

 

[Jax49]

Tiny Texas town turns inward in wake of mass shooting

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tiny-texas-town-turns-inward-in-wake-of-mass-shooting/ar-BBEQPfK?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

The people of Sutherland Springs have not held news conferences, they haven't made appearances on network morning television shows, and while they've been polite to the media, they're not exactly forthcoming. Instead, this rural community is turning to the one thing that has buoyed them in good times, and sustains them now: an unshakeable faith in God.

David Colbath, one of 20 people who were injured but survived Devin Patrick Kelley's rampage at the First Baptist Church, held Bible study from his hospital bed. Judy Green, a church member who avoided the carnage because she and her husband were running an errand, sought counseling at another church because of what she saw when she drove up to the building that day. Crystal Barkley, a Sutherland Springs resident who doesn't even attend the church, prayed and "stayed at home for a couple of days, collecting strength."

 

[human]

I have no way of knowing what happened in his life, but what I have seen is that the child is treated and there is no family counseling. When a child has issues, it is a family issue.

The family needs to learn better ways of interacting. People are not given instructions on child rearing. We know what is not good. We have positive methods of working with children. We know what leads to trauma.

Instead the fix is put onto the child with meds and other behavior modifications. This needs to change

 

[Bill Carson]

You know I look at this and I think, why weren't any of those healthy young men able to stop him?

It just seems strange, that they didn't tackle him, I don't know maybe it happened too fast, but I can't see the men just standing there and letting him shoot everybody.

By the way, absolutely no blame here, just my thoughts as I looked at the victims.

Your thoughts?


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If you look at the previous services posted on the church's YouTube channel, you notice that two of the "younger" men were probably standing at the front of the church (i.e., near the "altar"), playing guitar and bass and leading the musical worship. They probably got killed first, along with the guest preacher who was shot in the back as he was going up to preach. The aisles of the church--one in the center and one on each side--were narrow, and there were pews that would have made it difficult to rush the shooter. There was one exit at the back (where the shooter entered), and one small door at the front of the sanctuary. These people were effectively trapped.

I watched a few of the videos, and I didn't see many "healthy young men." It was mostly old people, a few mothers, and children. This was, above all, an act of extreme cowardice.

Yes, in an active shooter situation, you are supposed to run, hide, or fight, in that order. These victims had nowhere to run, some of the survivors did successfully hide under pews or other victims, and they were too scared (and old, young, weak, and frail) to rush the gunman.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwi858rGRPg0lFFVycFvvWA

 

[Bill Carson]

Going back and looking at the video of the service from 10-22-2017, I took a screen shot of the interior of the sanctuary. You will notice about four doors at the front of the sanctuary, but I was shocked that none of the doors is marked with an illuminated "EXIT" sign. There may not have been an exit at the front of the room, as shocking as that seems.

 

[Bill Carson]

Also, you'll notice that the doors at the front are semi-blocked with speakers, crosses, the stage, etc.

 

[kittythehare]

aDHD child, medicated and allegedly resenting being medicated..
went or was sent to join the army.. a highly difficult environment, particularly for adhd..
failure after failure.. escalation after escalation..
crying and temper tantrums following reprimand..
he never grew up, he never became adult..
its a cruel world..

 

[Bernina]

Going back and looking at the video of the service from 10-22-2017, I took a screen shot of the interior of the sanctuary. You will notice about four doors at the front of the sanctuary, but I was shocked that none of the doors is marked with an illuminated "EXIT" sign. There may not have been an exit at the front of the room, as shocking as that seems.

NOBODY knows how they would or would not react when something like this happens, it is what it is.

I would hope I could react because I live 600 feet from Gunsite Training Center, they have automatic weapons night every Thursday and special training classes randomly throughout the week. It took me, my children, livestock and dogs, about 2-3 weeks to get used to the gunfire when I first moved up here. Now it's common place, and the only gunfire that draws my attention is if a neighbor is shooting.

I carry all the time when I leave my property, have done so for the last 23 years. It's rural, open range, large predators, etc. I have had to put badly injured animals, of all kinds, down. I have had to shoot coyotes and bobcat to protect my animals.

For me it's like taking your cell phone when you leave the house.

I hope I NEVER land in a situation like this. And I wonder if I could shoot a human being. I know it is very hard for me to take the life of an animal I love when they are suffering. I know I wouldn't have those same feelings for a human being threatening my life, or others.

Would that make it easier? I don't know............

 

[Deleted member 158085]

If you look at the previous services posted on the church's YouTube channel, you notice that two of the "younger" men were probably standing at the front of the church (i.e., near the "altar"), playing guitar and bass and leading the musical worship. They probably got killed first, along with the guest preacher who was shot in the back as he was going up to preach. The aisles of the church--one in the center and one on each side--were narrow, and there were pews that would have made it difficult to rush the shooter. There was one exit at the back (where the shooter entered), and one small door at the front of the sanctuary. These people were effectively trapped.

I watched a few of the videos, and I didn't see many "healthy young men." It was mostly old people, a few mothers, and children. This was, above all, an act of extreme cowardice.

Yes, in an active shooter situation, you are supposed to run, hide, or fight, in that order. These victims had nowhere to run, some of the survivors did successfully hide under pews or other victims, and they were too scared (and old, young, weak, and frail) to rush the gunman.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwi858rGRPg0lFFVycFvvWA

Yes, getting out of a pew quickly is not easy. Or even out of rows of chairs.

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[Bernina]

aDHD child, medicated and allegedly resenting being medicated..
went or was sent to join the army.. a highly difficult environment, particularly for adhd..
failure after failure.. escalation after escalation..
crying and temper tantrums following reprimand..
he never grew up, he never became adult..
its a cruel world..

But the Air Force didn't allow enlistees with those conditions when he joined..........did he lie?

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Going back and looking at the video of the service from 10-22-2017, I took a screen shot of the interior of the sanctuary. You will notice about four doors at the front of the sanctuary, but I was shocked that none of the doors is marked with an illuminated "EXIT" sign. There may not have been an exit at the front of the room, as shocking as that seems.

Unless you are a small child, if your pew is full, there's no way you can even get down on the floor. And crawling under a pew would be impossible for me, and I'm a small person. This was, as you say, an effective trap.

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[LonghornSpeakEasy]

Going back and looking at the video of the service from 10-22-2017, I took a screen shot of the interior of the sanctuary. You will notice about four doors at the front of the sanctuary, but I was shocked that none of the doors is marked with an illuminated "EXIT" sign. There may not have been an exit at the front of the room, as shocking as that seems.

Those may have been doors to the baptistry only. I think it's called the baptistry. I'm Methodist and we "sprinkled."

 

[Deleted member 158085]

aDHD child, medicated and allegedly resenting being medicated..
went or was sent to join the army.. a highly difficult environment, particularly for adhd..
failure after failure.. escalation after escalation..
crying and temper tantrums following reprimand..
he never grew up, he never became adult..
its a cruel world..

I'm betting the ADHD diagnosis was either incorrect or a very small part of the picture. Many kids are diagnosed with ADHD who have something more complicated going on. The medication masks the other issues and the assumed diagnosis prevents others from seeking further answers until or unless something like a psychotic break happens.

We need more psychiatrists available so that psych meds are given out by experts instead of GPs and pediatricians, and so that people are not relying only on talk therapy. Therapists can be valuable, but some therapists are better or more qualified than others, and the differences in methodology and philosophy are incredible. Best odds for it working is for a psychiatrist who has evaluated your condition to help recommend an effective therapist.

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[rsd1200]

Going back and looking at the video of the service from 10-22-2017, I took a screen shot of the interior of the sanctuary. You will notice about four doors at the front of the sanctuary, but I was shocked that none of the doors is marked with an illuminated "EXIT" sign. There may not have been an exit at the front of the room, as shocking as that seems.

Behind the podium, I think, is a baptismal area. I'd guess that the door to the left or right is a point of entry, to possibly the pastor's office, and a way into the baptismal. The others could have been Sunday School rooms, or nursery, or an exit.

 

[kittythehare]

But the Air Force didn't allow enlistees with those conditions when he joined..........did he lie?

Acc to NYT article cited in post earlier, army was unable to confirm whether testing had taken place to this effect, or words to that effect
Post #839

 

[Bernina]

I'm wondering if his symptoms were related to Autism Spectrum Disorder..............anyone have any comments?

 

[Bill Carson]

Behind the podium, I think, is a baptismal area. I'd guess that the door to the left or right is a point of entry, to possibly the pastor's office, and a way into the baptismal. The others could have been Sunday School rooms, or nursery, or an exit.

I went back and watched some of the other church service videos (you can scroll through and look for different camera angles), and there is a side door to the outside on the right side of the sanctuary, on THIS side of the right speaker (i.e., you can't see it from the angle of that screen shot). But remember the reports said the shooter went around to the right side of the outside of the building first, and shot up that area before he returned to the front and entered by the front door. I bet he was herding people away from that side exit. Also, it appears the windows are opaque, so people wouldn't have seen the gunman approaching from the side before he started shooting.

I think you are right---those other doors do not go outside, or they may go into the main part of the building. Like you said, one front side door probably goes to the baptistry, and the other the preacher's office.

It is a very tight room, the pews are very close together such that people can't walk down the pew without "scootching" sideways. There would have been no place to go except down, and people standing up would have been easy targets. In hindsight, people should have crashed through the windows to escape.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm wondering if his symptoms were related to Autism Spectrum Disorder..............anyone have any comments?

No idea and no evidence to that effect.
Diagnosed as an adult but reports of early behaviour, school etc suggest condition of adhd may have persisted throughout his life..
Would really need to see an actual validated report on his early childhood before turning this into a theorising conversation..