TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

[Bill Carson]

I'm wondering if his symptoms were related to Autism Spectrum Disorder..............anyone have any comments?

I will comment. I have studied ASD pretty thoroughly, as I have a child that may be on the spectrum. I don't think that DK exhibits symptoms of ASD. He may have been socially awkward and had a hard time relating to people (social awkwardness is a symptom), but there is no indication that he had language delays; he tested as smart on the Air Force aptitude test, but there is no indication he had an extremely high intelligence (would could indicate high-functioning autism, what they used to call Asperger's).

Based on what I know, he does not appear to have ASD.

 

[dianaelaine59]

Thanks everyone, I guess I'm just wishing someone could've stopped him.


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[kittythehare]

Thanks everyone, I guess I'm just wishing someone could've stopped him.


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If they could have, they did not.
all too often, this is the story at the end..
I think he was pretty much an outcast because of his erratic behaviours..
He physically grew into a man, but his mind never developed to the extent that he could handle his or other peoples emotions or feelings.
So, he lashed out, in the only way he could..
Incapable of communication...
Tragic.

 

[x_files]

Being a psycho/sociopath is not a reason to involuntarily get someone into treatment. For one, not all are criminals. Having a personality disorder does not automatically make you a criminal. Many function in society without committing crimes. A good many that you will find in prison can be classified as one or the other but there’s just as many outside of prison walls that can be classified as having a disorder but have no violent or criminal history. So....no. Legally and ethically you can’t unless they repeatedly and consistently do things that cause harm to themselves or others or both, and even then it has to be shown that the disorder is what is causing this to happen. They know right from wrong and simply choose not to do it, unless there is a chemical mental illness or some other physical brain affliction causing the problem.

The ones that commit crimes and are violent like DK. I should add that to my post.

 

[rsd1200]

I went back and watched some of the other church service videos (you can scroll through and look for different camera angles), and there is a side door to the outside on the right side of the sanctuary, on THIS side of the right speaker (i.e., you can't see it from the angle of that screen shot). But remember the reports said the shooter went around to the right side of the outside of the building first, and shot up that area before he returned to the front and entered by the front door. I bet he was herding people away from that side exit. Also, it appears the windows are opaque, so people wouldn't have seen the gunman approaching from the side before he started shooting.

I think you are right---those other doors do not go outside, or they may go into the main part of the building. Like you said, one front side door probably goes to the baptistry, and the other the preacher's office.

It is a very tight room, the pews are very close together such that people can't walk down the pew without "scootching" sideways. There would have been no place to go except down, and people standing up would have been easy targets. In hindsight, people should have crashed through the windows to escape.

The side door is not uncommon, in these little churches. If I understand you correctly, the window, behind the gentleman's head, in the blue shirt, is the door. I wonder if that door was usually locked, and he knew that, so, he sprayed that door, and used that to herd them, and create panic, so when he walked in the front, it was just over.

In some of these small churches, you'll sit nearly shoulder to shoulder. A lot of times, in my experience, people who have an infant, or the elderly, sit on the outside edges of the pews (not saying this is the case at this church, just my own experiences over the years) because they have to get up sometimes, and exiting across a pew, from the middle, can be a daunting task, with a bad knee, or an infant and a baby bag. That would make it even more difficult for everyone to exit the pews. I have a bit of a hard time looking at the church vids. To see them, singing, and worshiping together, and to know what's coming.

 

[Bill Carson]

The side door is not uncommon, in these little churches. If I understand you correctly, the window, behind the gentleman's head, in the blue shirt, is the door.

No, the door is on the other side. I took a screen shot of a video with a wider view to show the location of that.

Here's a view from the outside of the church, on the side where the door is located. This is a screen shot from an Easter sunrise service that was held on the lawn. I blurred the faces for privacy. You can see that the church has a long porch on the side, and there's rooms off that porch. At the end of the porch is the door that goes inside the sanctuary. It is a little hard to see the door, so I made an arrow pointing toward it. Best I could do.

 

[Bill Carson]

I have a bit of a hard time looking at the church vids. To see them, singing, and worshiping together, and to know what's coming.

I know what you mean. That's just a good little Baptist congregation, there's a probably a thousand of them in small towns and communities across Texas. My in-laws attend a similar church of another denomination in a town not far from Sutherland Springs.

I've been scanning through the church videos to see if DK ever attended with his wife. Haven't seen him yet. Will post if I find it.

 

[Doghairrules]

I'm betting the ADHD diagnosis was either incorrect or a very small part of the picture. Many kids are diagnosed with ADHD who have something more complicated going on. The medication masks the other issues and the assumed diagnosis prevents others from seeking further answers until or unless something like a psychotic break happens.

We need more psychiatrists available so that psych meds are given out by experts instead of GPs and pediatricians, and so that people are not relying only on talk therapy. Therapists can be valuable, but some therapists are better or more qualified than others, and the differences in methodology and philosophy are incredible. Best odds for it working is for a psychiatrist who has evaluated your condition to help recommend an effective therapist.

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The other thing I’ve witnessed with people I know is that psychiatrists and the medical community are very reluctant to give a child a severe mental illness diagnosis. So they stick with adhd until they are in their teens. Seems ineffective to me.


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[kittythehare]

The other thing I’ve witnessed with people I know is that psychiatrists and the medical community are very reluctant to give a child a severe mental illness diagnosis. So they stick with adhd until they are in their teens. Seems ineffective to me.


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The NYT link stated he was treated for adhd while awaiting sentencing, not as a child.
We do not have any medical reports from his childhood (HIPPA)

 

[iliketotalk15]

The NYT link stated he was treated for adhd while awaiting sentencing, not as a child.
We do not have any medical reports from his childhood (HIPPA)

I really hate how everyone throws HIPAA around. And it is HIPAA. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.

 

[kittythehare]

I really hate how everyone throws HIPAA around. And it is HIPAA. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.

whereas I humbly apologise for my typo and I am sorry it offended you. nobody is throwing anything around anywhere.
It is relevant to the conversation.

 

[iliketotalk15]

whereas I humbly apologise for my typo and I am sorry it offended you. nobody is throwing anything around anywhere.
It is relevant to the conversation.

I'm sorry. HIPAA is just one of those pet peeves of mine because people tend to toss it out as if they know anything about it (and usually 'misspell' it). HIPAA doesn't restrict records from being released by just anyone, only certain entities, generally health related. Police are not under HIPAA, so if they subpoenaed records from health providers, they could release the records to the public without violating HIPAA. They wouldn't, especially at this point in the investigation, but they aren't legally bound under HIPAA not to. So saying that we don't have his medical records because 'HIPAA' just seems like a gross mischaracterization of the law. IMO.

 

[CARIIS]

I really hate how everyone throws HIPAA around. And it is HIPAA. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.

there are all sorts of stuff with Hipaa

many can apply here

threatening others

harm to self

harm to others

I would think there would be a lot of anecdotal info as it relates to his mental issues for quite some time

it is also interesting that no meds have come out yet either --that usually gets out in public space cause people around the person suffering with the illness are aware of ones med history how often the stopped taking them etc

moo i cant imagine him only having one invol admit to a facility tho

 

[CARIIS]

The other thing I’ve witnessed with people I know is that psychiatrists and the medical community are very reluctant to give a child a severe mental illness diagnosis. So they stick with adhd until they are in their teens. Seems ineffective to me.


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this is very true

 

[CARIIS]

The ones that commit crimes and are violent like DK. I should add that to my post.

the realities are sad, there are just no beds most 72 hour holds don't even last that long

in the private sector back then if they had insurance that had not been maxed they would be admitted and zapped for 24 -48 hrs

if there insurance had maxed out on inpt placement they did not get admitted generally

funny I covered in admssions once -- hated it -- they did not want me back up there -- I admitted who needed to be inpt

don't ya hate when that happens !!

 

[CARIIS]

Thanks everyone, I guess I'm just wishing someone could've stopped him.


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I understand it is small town -- at some level it is curious the nature , intensity tone and frequency of the threats have not gotten some more attn -- unless there were instances wherein he met criteria for a invol hold several times and for whatever reason they were not done

back in the day LE hated mental health generally -- it takes a lot of time lots of paperwork etc etc

back then LE was not trained in that arena and they just viewed em as loonie coo coo birds crazies make

it was similar to DV back then they just did not want to deal with it

here now days for quite some time , thankfully a person MUST be arrested on a DV

and yes in DV there was a lot of male privilege stuff oh she deserved it generally speaking

that too has gotten better with training

I would think a inpt facility would be far away increasing likelihood that they might have avoided it

anyone know how far the nearest inp mental facility is trom the area they were in??

 

[kittythehare]

there are all sorts of stuff with Hipaa

many can apply here

threatening others

harm to self

harm to others

I would think there would be a lot of anecdotal info as it relates to his mental issues for quite some time

it is also interesting that no meds have come out yet either --that usually gets out in public space cause people around the person suffering with the illness are aware of ones med history how often the stopped taking them etc

moo i cant imagine him only having one invol admit to a facility tho

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/...20171111&nl=top-stories&nlid=68626860&ref=cta

 

[CARIIS]

I will comment. I have studied ASD pretty thoroughly, as I have a child that may be on the spectrum. I don't think that DK exhibits symptoms of ASD. He may have been socially awkward and had a hard time relating to people (social awkwardness is a symptom), but there is no indication that he had language delays; he tested as smart on the Air Force aptitude test, but there is no indication he had an extremely high intelligence (would could indicate high-functioning autism, what they used to call Asperger's).

Based on what I know, he does not appear to have ASD.

i don't think so either they can have outbursts but are generally not beating animals etc etc

doing some thing like this requires many changes in daily routine something that is huge trigger so I don't think he could have
the planning obtaining vest etc

and in terms of complicated interpersonal relationships a hallmark of the illness is an inability to process or understand them just cant grasp the nuance of relationship


moo

 

[2Hope4]

That 'hold' of 24-72 is utter :cow: :****: Rapid stabilization....well there's MANY situations that rapid doesn't exists, that the person needs ongoing help not a brief observation, the patient and family members get upset and often do NOT seek further treatment because they feel like they were failed. That there's no hope, no help out there. I'll give an example....

Imagine having to call the police to have your father committed because of a psychotic break. Police arrive, your father says he isn't going to harm himself, nor anyone. So police say there's nothing they can do. HOWEVER if the right questions are asked, you get the answers. Police then ask about my Mom...Dad says she's possessed and the only way to help her is to kill her and get rid of the demons. THAT is enough to finally get transport to the psychiatry hospital. At this point, he can hold a conversation, can avoid mentioning Mom, the demons, etc.

Two days later, there's no improvement. Mom can't even visit because the sight of her brings out the psychosis. YET, the hospital and doctors decide he has to be discharged. He says he's been up all night riding the bicycle with another patient. *It was an exercise bike, stationary.* Tells me of all the places he rode to. Shows me his moles and freckles on his chest, and swears he is infested with fleas and ticks... yet is being discharged. Follow up with a psychiatrist as needed...

Less than 4 hrs later, he's home. Threatening the same things as before. Luckily THIS time he has an order for Haldol. I gave him a dose, told him we were going on a trip to get away and put him in my car, and head to another hospital 2 hrs away! Mom is frantic because she's afraid he's going to turn on me during that ride. She cannot ride with us. She follows us in her car keeping a distance so Dad doesn't see. TWO HOURS of this. Get to the hospital, they put us in a lockdown room. Again, Mom not allowed to go near that door with a window or Dad gets worse. I'm literally locked in the room with him. He swears the toilet is possessed because it auto flushes. He tries using a credit card to get out, because he saw workers swipe their employee badges to come in the room and leave. This hospital does admit him... they load him with heavy sedatives. He calls Mom after 3 days, crying and not knowing where is he, scared and wanting to come home. Mom married to him about 40yrs at this time, home alone herself, decides to make the 2 hr trip alone and didn't tell any of us siblings. She finds him heavily sedated, and per her "a shell of the man I love", she says he wants to come home and she can't leave him like that... hospital discharges him!!!

Two days later, he's refusing meds and we're back at square one...only this time, Mom doesn't want police called because 'they didn't help' doesn't want him admitted because 'they didn't help', Dad doesn't want meds because Mom is trying poison. He does NOT remember the police, or either hospitalization. I make the decision he has to go back, Mom crying. Get to the first hospital started explaining all we've been through, hospital says he was only released due to insurance and the hold time but informs me that I could have brought him right back from the parking lot that same day and it would have started the admission and stay all over! DO WHAT???

This time there is NO VISITATION allowed for several days. He is kept a week. Finally was stable enough to come home. Every single doctor that saw him couldn't or wouldn't give us a diagnosis of what the heck happened. He'd never had a psychosis episode before.

 

[2Hope4]

The brain...the most important aspect of our body and the one the least is known about.