TX - Botham Shem Jean, 26, killed when police officer entered wrong apartment, Dallas, Sept 2018

[jjenny]

You might not HAVE to ask but it's a better option than killing someone right off the bat.

It's better but in TX she didn't have to retreat or ask. If she were in her apartment she wouldn't have been arrested because of "castle doctrine."

 

[jjenny]

In fact, in most US states you, the homeowner or apartment dweller, are legally allowed to shoot and kill anyone who has illegally entered your home if you have reasonable grounds for believing the intruder to be a threat to your life. If my husband were away and I came face-to-face with an intruder in our darkened home, I would unload a clip on the *advertiser censored* faster than he could say, "But burglary is not a capital offense." Then I'd sue his next of kin for the cost to clean my rugs.
It's pretty clear, from what officials have said so far, that Guyger is going to claim that she mistakenly entered an unlocked, dark apartment that she presumed to be her own. When she came face-to-face with a person she perceived to be a threat to her life, she opened fire. She'll have hard time convincing a jury of that scenario, but criminal trials are volatile, highly unpredictable affairs.

I am not so sure she'd have a hard time convincing jury of that scenario. I guess it depends on composition of the jury. But in TX she is allowed to use "mistake of fact" defense. Her "mistake of fact" is presumably going to be is that she mistakenly believed she was in her own apartment.

 

[Jax49]

So she probably is going to be using a "mistake of fact" defense.
"According to the Texas Penal Code, a defendant is allowed to use the defense if the mistake forms a reasonable belief that negates the culpable mental state required to obtain a conviction."
Was the Dallas Cop Who Killed Her Neighbor Given Special Treatment? Not Necessarily.

Interesting link. Thanks for posting. This quote gave me pause considering she WASN'T in her home. I get the concept but it is hard to swallow that she can walk if she claims she thought it was her apartment. moo

As for Chief Hall not arresting the officer as soon as investigators learned she was off duty, Whalen says they would do the same if a civilian shot an intruder in her home: wait until they collect all the facts before they take her to jail. “It’s good police work to wait to get the facts,” he says. “Just because she’s off duty, she still has the right to defend herself.”

bbm

 

[jjenny]

Interesting link. Thanks for posting. This quote gave me pause considering she WASN'T in her home. I get the concept but it is hard to swallow that she can walk if she claims she thought it was her apartment. moo



bbm

In Tx they most likely wouldn't take a civilian in jail if that civilian shot an intruder in their home. Again, castle doctrine. Basically, it's legal to shoot an intruder in your home in TX because of stand your ground/castle doctrine. So AG is likely going to claim she was mistaken and believed it to be her home, in which case shooting an intruder is legal, and I am not so sure that it won't work.

 

[Rocco]

In Tx they most likely wouldn't take a civilian in jail if that civilian shot an intruder in their home. Again, castle doctrine. Basically, it's legal to shoot an intruder in your home in TX because of stand your ground/castle doctrine. So AG is likely going to claim she was mistaken and believed it to be her home, in which case shooting an intruder is legal, and I am not so sure that it won't work.

But with the Castle Doctrine, you have to be in reasonable fear of bodily harm or death.

 

[Jax49]

The Castle Doctrine: Understanding Self-Defense in Texas

Texas law provides for a justifiable defense at trial when using deadly force if the person claiming self defense:

1. Reasonably believed the deadly force was immediately necessary;
2. Had a legal right to be on the property;
3. Did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used; and
4. Was not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force was used.

***
Lots more at the link.

 

[Amonet]

Wouldn’t you hesitate if you came home and your door was unlocked? I certainly would wonder what was going on and not just walk on whoever might be lying in wait. That red mat is very hard to miss. What was she thinking...or not, obviously.

If I was a police officer and armed, I suppose seeing the door open would be a reason to unholster my weapon. I guess my next thing might be to stand at the side of the door, unseen, and listen to see if anyone's still in there, and if I hear noises then call 911 for backup?

I can buy parking on the wrong floor and walking to the wrong apartment if there's entry from the parking straight into the apartments.

I'm finding it hard to buy that even if the apartment was not fully lit from inside that the light from the hallway didn't shine enough into the apartment, once the door was pushed open, to show that it was the wrong apartment. And even if AG hadn't noticed that the doormats outside the other apartment doors were in different places from on her floor (due to being tired and only living there for a month) I would have thought the red doormat outside Mr Jean's house would stand out and make her check the door number...and if the door is ajar then peek in and make sure it really is her apartment. The first thing I do when I walk in in the dark is turn the light on, but my flat is obviously mine even with the inside light off and only the hall light shining through the doorway. But if I walked in and closed the door I wouldn't be able to see well enough to hang up my coat and bag, so I always turn the light on when I go in at night.

 

[Rocco]

The Castle Doctrine: Understanding Self-Defense in Texas

Texas law provides for a justifiable defense at trial when using deadly force if the person claiming self defense:

1. Reasonably believed the deadly force was immediately necessary;
2. Had a legal right to be on the property;
3. Did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used; and
4. Was not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force was used.

***
Lots more at the link.

Can't wait to hear her explanation of #1 on the list.

 

[Amonet]

275 guests reading this thread. WoW.

Where do you find out how many people are reading a thread? I didn't know that was possible on the new board.

 

[jjenny]

But with the Castle Doctrine, you have to be in reasonable fear of bodily harm or death.

If somebody breaks into your house, don't tell me you aren't in reasonable fear of bodily harm or death. What do you think they are there to do, sell cookies?

 

[cybervampira]

No, she doesn't state the door was ajar. Door was unlocked, not ajar. We don't know what she said before either. That story was floating around, but not clear who the source of that story is.

The source is a Dallas police officer who wants anonymity (BBM):

Officer Who Shot Jean Charged With Manslaughter

A Dallas police officer, who spoke with NBC 5 Friday under the condition of anonymity, said Guyger was assigned to the department's elite Crime Responuse Team and had just finished a 14-hour shift serving warrants in high-crime areas. When she arrived home, she took the elevator to a floor that was not hers.

The officer said Guyger went to what she thought was her door, put the key in and struggled with the lock. Guyger then put down several things she was holding and continued to fight with the key when the resident swung open the door and startled her. Guyger believed Jean was an intruder and shot him with her service weapon, the officer said.

The account went on to detail that it wasn't until police and rescue units began arriving that she realized she was not at her apartment. Once realizing her deadly mistake, she became emotional and fully cooperated with officers, including offering to provide blood samples.

 

[cybervampira]

So, someone is lying. NBC, the police officer, or the defendant.

 

[jjenny]

We don't have her actual statement. Stories attributed to anonymous sources don't mean she changed her statement.

 

[Amonet]

If somebody breaks into your house, don't tell me you aren't in reasonable fear of bodily harm or death. What do you think they are there to do, sell cookies?

If I back away from the door, pull my gun and cover the exit with my gun (in case they come out and point a gun at me) and call 911, no I don't feel in immediate fear for my life.

If that person came out the door while I was covering it with the gun, then would I wait to see if they were holding a gun before I shot them? Is it reasonable to wait and see if they have a gun and give them time to shoot me before I shoot them? But no one has said he came out into the hallway, so that's irrelevant.

I can understand the doctrine saying that if someone intrudes into your home and you're in fear of your life that you can shoot instead of backing away or hiding. But even with that, surely if you are only a step from the door and you can back away, pull the door closed and trap the person inside and wait for cops (it said they were 4 minutes away) isn't it better to not go in there and risk getting shot first....even if you had your gun out they could have heard you coming and be pointing at you, so surely the safest and most reasonable thing would be to retreat?

 

[jjenny]

If I back away from the door, pull my gun and cover the exit with my gun (in case they come out and point a gun at me) and call 911, no I don't feel in immediate fear for my life.

If that person came out the door while I was covering it with the gun, then would I wait to see if they were holding a gun before I shot them? Is it reasonable to wait and see if they have a gun and give them time to shoot me before I shoot them? But no one has said he came out into the hallway, so that's irrelevant.

I can understand the doctrine saying that if someone intrudes into your home and you're in fear of your life that you can shoot instead of backing away or hiding. But even with that, surely if you are only a step from the door and you can back away, pull the door closed and trap the person inside and wait for cops (it said they were 4 minutes away) isn't it better to not go in there and risk getting shot first....even if you had your gun out they could have heard you coming and be pointing at you, so surely the safest and most reasonable thing would be to retreat?

You don't have to back away even if you can do so. That's the whole point of castle doctrine. I understand that some people will try to retreat, but in TX, they don't have to. And again, this is TX. Find me one story where homeowner who killed an intruder got charged, and then we will talk.

 

[mickey2942]

But with the Castle Doctrine, you have to be in reasonable fear of bodily harm or death.

I am sure that will be the next "story" in the narrative.

 

[Amonet]

So, someone is lying. NBC, the police officer, or the defendant.

I don't think errors at this stage are always down to lying. Most news articles will have errors in them in the early days of 'major incidents'.

 

[jjenny]

I don't think errors at this stage are always down to lying. Most news articles will have errors in them in the early days of 'major incidents'.

There usually lots of erroneous reporting early on. And even later on. We don't have her actual statement to figure out if it changed in any way. I also don't think she gave a statement at the scene. But 911 calls are taped so whatever she said there is on record. That can be compared to her official statement she gave to Texas Rangers.

 

[mickey2942]

You don't have to back away even if you can do so. That's the whole point of castle doctrine. I understand that some people will try to retreat, but in TX, they don't have to. And again, this is TX. Find me one story where homeowner who killed an intruder got charged, and then we will talk.

I know of a few, but this is Montana. One guy went to prison, I love our Sheriff, he was on the news talking about the case, he said, "If someone breaks into to your house, make sure they are inside before you shoot them.".

 

[Amonet]

You don't have to back away even if you can do so. That's the whole point of castle doctrine. I understand that some people will try to retreat, but in TX, they don't have to. And again, this is TX. Find me one story where homeowner who killed an intruder got charged, and then we will talk.

I realise that. What I'm saying is that if backing away is the safest option for oneself, then maybe it should be the recommended strategy. If you are safer by closing the door on an intruder who might be pointing a gun at you and shoot you first, then surely you should back away.

If you're already inside and the intruder is entering from the outside, that's different from you being outside and the intruder being inside. I'm not talking about the safety of the intruder/burglar but about the safety of the homeowner/victim.

Regardless of whether AG thought it was her apartment, if she had entered and been shot (as an intruder) then I do understand the Castle doctrine would come into play and I'm not arguing with that as the homeowner would likely feel trapped in their own home and afraid for their life. My take on it is that the homeowner is not obliged to hide under the bed or in a closet and wait for the intruder to leave, they can shoot to protect their own life and the lives of other people in the home.

But this is the person on the outside who shot, the person who had safer options than entering and putting their own life at risk. I don't think it should be encouraged to have reckless disregard for one's own life and going into a potentially dangerous situation when it is not necessary to do so.

I just think that if a burglar was inside her apartment and they heard footsteps coming down the hall that the higher probability would be for her to be dead from entering that apartment. I would prefer people in that situation didn't put themselves at risk in that way when they are the one with far more reasonable options of retreat. It's not about whether you legally can go forward, it's about whether its in your best interest to go forward. Surely even a police officer has to make calculations like that and sometimes determine not to go forward as their life is important and there are other ways to trap and catch the perp?