TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #5

[Cobra Jet]

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Officer fatally shoots man after entering wrong apartment 'believing that it was her own': Police

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[Sillybilly]

Please continue discussion here.

Remember, do not introduce race into the discussion unless it becomes known via MSM or LE that it was a factor in this tragedy.

Stay on topic, and no snark, personalizing or disrespect toward other members.

Thank you.

 

[tamsidea]

Does anyone else think that the placement of the apartment numbers in relation to the door make it less noticeable? Note the photo of his door specifically. The strip of lights with the apartment number does not even show. In light of this situation the building owner/management might need to put something directly on the door. JMO

 

[tamsidea]

Admittedly, I'm obsessed with this case and I'm having a hard time deciding what I think the appropriate conviction and punishment would be. I've been scouring the internet for anything similar. My current thoughts are leaning toward fatal car accidents where fatigue of the driver at fault is the most prominent factor. Thoughts?

 

[Rocco]

Does anyone else think that the placement of the apartment numbers in relation to the door make it less noticeable? Note the photo of his door specifically. The strip of lights with the apartment number does not even show. In light of this situation the building owner/management might need to put something directly on the door. JMO
View attachment 205690 View attachment 205691

IMO it wouldn't have mattered. Who looks at their house number before they go into their house? I sure don't.

 

[Hraefn]

Replying to Via Marple's post from last thread which read

Bright hallway, bright door lights
Google Image Result for http://cdn.lifedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/03-botham-shem-jean-story.jpg

What is this picture of? Is this the stairwell? The hallway with the apartment doors? The entrance from the parking garage? The reason I want to know is because there is a railing.

I was dog sitting for a friend whose building had entrances from the parking garage on every floor. One time I did actually park on the 4th floor instead of the 5th floor where her unit was. I noticed as soon as I exited the parking garage because the hallways were open to the other floors so I could see that I wasn't high enough up. So those photos with the railing make me very curious.

 

[Jax49]

Replying to Via Marple's post from last thread which read


What is this picture of? Is this the stairwell? The hallway with the apartment doors? The entrance from the parking garage? The reason I want to know is because there is a railing.

I was dog sitting for a friend whose building had entrances from the parking garage on every floor. One time I did actually park on the 4th floor instead of the 5th floor where her unit was. I noticed as soon as I exited the parking garage because the hallways were open to the other floors so I could see that I wasn't high enough up. So those photos with the railing make me very curious.

The pic appears to be a still from the video of her pacing outside his apartment while talking with 911.

 

[mickey2942]

The attorneys for AG have already set up the stage for the appeal process, as a "fall back" measure, in regards to the trial. With their request for a change in venue, not Dallas.

Fifth Circuit District Court. Not the friendliest court.

While we can't discuss "race", I have no doubt that the defense wasn't happy with the judge that they were placed with, Judge Tammy Kemp.

Meet Tammy Kemp, The Judge Assigned To Amber Guyger Murder Trial For Killing Botham Jean

Looks like Botham Jean's mother will be attending the trial.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/09/21/us...urder-trial/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

 

[VAgirlatheart]

I am also like that. Frankly and I don’t want to step on toes but I’ve always thought manslaughter. Regardless. Unless there is evidence that she planned it and it was premeditated which I don’t think it is but I also don’t know the evidence. As of now, I’m going manslaughter based off of what we know.

HOWEVER and this is a big however, apparently the state of Texas murder degree does not word it like most other states do. The wording never mentions premeditation - it states something to the fact that it has to be “intent to kill” which technically in my opinion was something she was trying to do based off of the “placement of the shots” I have no doubt that was what she was trying to do. As an officer, you are trained to shoot at an arm or leg versus the head and chest. Regardless if she thought it was her apartment or not - she missed bold signs that have she should have seen. Even if it was a total accident, she still should be held responsible. It may suck but that’s what happens. If it was me, you, or anyone else we would held responsible for our actions. I had a classmate that had another class mate in the car with him when he wrecked and killed the other classmate. No alcohol was involved but because he was going like 5 over the speed limit, he was charged with manslaughter. So as much as it may suck for her, she took a life due to her recklessness. If she was that tired - she should have never been on the street in the first place (which falls on the PD) as well as her for signing up for overtime.

Admittedly, I'm obsessed with this case and I'm having a hard time deciding what I think the appropriate conviction and punishment would be. I've been scouring the internet for anything similar. My current thoughts are leaning toward fatal car accidents where fatigue of the driver at fault is the most prominent factor. Thoughts?

I

 

[mickey2942]

The issue of "Mistake of Fact" is interesting. And if AG tries to be a "hero" for working so much overtime at work, causing her to be so tired she walks into another person's house, that means that the "Mistake of Fact", is directly her FAULT. For working so much, for money, cash, she literally killed someone, because she worked herself into this situation.

She is at fault for working so much. No one else. She signed up for extra shifts.

Sure, she didn't mean to "murder" someone, but she was responsible for her actions. If we go with this, manslaughter.

 

[NervousNellie]

I am also like that. Frankly and I don’t want to step on toes but I’ve always thought manslaughter. Regardless. Unless there is evidence that she planned it and it was premeditated which I don’t think it is but I also don’t know the evidence. As of now, I’m going manslaughter based off of what we know.

HOWEVER and this is a big however, apparently the state of Texas murder degree does not word it like most other states do. The wording never mentions premeditation - it states something to the fact that it has to be “intent to kill” which technically in my opinion was something she was trying to do based off of the “placement of the shots” I have no doubt that was what she was trying to do. As an officer, you are trained to shoot at an arm or leg versus the head and chest. Regardless if she thought it was her apartment or not - she missed bold signs that have she should have seen. Even if it was a total accident, she still should be held responsible. It may suck but that’s what happens. If it was me, you, or anyone else we would held responsible for our actions. I had a classmate that had another class mate in the car with him when he wrecked and killed the other classmate. No alcohol was involved but because he was going like 5 over the speed limit, he was charged with manslaughter. So as much as it may suck for her, she took a life due to her recklessness. If she was that tired - she should have never been on the street in the first place (which falls on the PD) as well as her for signing up for overtime.

I

RBBM
I completely agree with your first paragraph, but The part I bolded is exactly the opposite of my understanding of LE training. Could you say what your source is for that statement? I don’t have a source for my belief, so I’d be easy to convince I’m wrong.

Edited to fix a crazy autocorrect.

 

[Rocco]

RBBM
I completely agree with your first paragraph, but The part I bolded is exactly the opposite of my understanding of LE training. Could you say what your source is for that statement? I don’t have a source for my belief, so I’d be easy to convince I’m wrong.

Edited to fix a crazy autocorrect.

Police are always trained to shoot at center mass, not at arms or legs, so your understanding is correct and that post is not.

Even people with CCPs are trained to aim for center mass.

Why We Always Aim Center Mass Instead Of Limbs Or Head

 

[VAgirlatheart]

Could be from me coming from a small school where I got my degree from but I can admit I’ve never been to police academy so I apologize, I’m going based off of a deep discussion in my classes and some research we’ve all done on it that was part of the project — I understand it’s harder to aim at target legs or arms to wound. However, I have a my degree in Criminal Justice with a minor in criminology, so I can’t directly say what is taught during police academy.

Not everyone is out to be a police officer. I’m one of those people who are smart enough to know that being an officer just ain’t for me. Clearly, it wasn’t for amber either. It takes a special kind of person to be one. You can’t be scared of your shadows and expect to be an officer. You just can’t. I think that has been proven over and over again. The fact that this is her second shooting within a few years and she had 9 cases against her is the reason she should never wear a badge again in her life. You can’t make reckless mistakes because you are tired and think that you just are going to get away with taking someone else’s life. She should have thought about that before she put herself in that situation.

I’ve worked with Nurses who had work 5 straight 12s a day. Never once have I heard of them going to the wrong house because they were so tired. Let’s not forget, these are day/evening shifts. Not over nightshifts she worked. Not saying you can’t be tired during the day but it’s something different between overnight shifts and day shifts. If you ever worked one, then you will exactly what I mean

 

[VAgirlatheart]

We just need to get Justice for Botham. At this point, I don’t care how it is ... she just needs to pay for her mistake like if it was you or I. I’m sorry you are so tired from a shift, but that doesn’t justify you taking another human life simply because you thought it was your house. She was reckless. She missed her floor on the parking garage, she missed the big number on the wall that says 4. She missed the lit up lamp that said the apartment number. She missed the plant that was supposed to be on her floor. She miss the most obvious sign, the red doormat. Going back and reading the statement she did state that she put her key into the door fob but the door was slightly ajared, so I am assuming she missed the red blinking light that said it’s not her apartment/key and I’m supposed to believe that it was a mistake of fact? Even if it was, why are risking the safety of the public? What would have happened if she was driving home but she was so tired that she didn’t see that there was a kids in the middle of the road and hit the kid? Would she be let off the hook? Probably not.

Mistake of fact just doesn’t seem realistic to me.

 

[VAgirlatheart]

The pic appears to be a still from the video of her pacing outside his apartment while talking with 911.

While rendering aid ‍

 

[VAgirlatheart]

The issue of "Mistake of Fact" is interesting. And if AG tries to be a "hero" for working so much overtime at work, causing her to be so tired she walks into another person's house, that means that the "Mistake of Fact", is directly her FAULT. For working so much, for money, cash, she literally killed someone, because she worked herself into this situation.

She is at fault for working so much. No one else. She signed up for extra shifts.

Sure, she didn't mean to "murder" someone, but she was responsible for her actions. If we go with this, manslaughter.

I think based off the how the Texas law is worded that they had to go with the Murder charge. I was confused because I didn’t understand it either. Based off the law and wording Murder, based off other states I would say Manslaughter. Thankfully, if they can’t find enough to convict her with Murder, they can still choose manslaughter, I also heard someone mention Texas has negligent homicide which at first I thought that would be manslaughter but apparently it’s different.

I just don’t believe she can get off because she thought it was her apartment. At some point, we need to hold the ones who are responsible, responsible. I firmly believe the relationship between the community and the police officers will not get better until the ones who are held responsible for their actions are actually held accountable.

 

[mickey2942]

I think based off the how the Texas law is worded that they had to go with the Murder charge. I was confused because I didn’t understand it either. Based off the law and wording Murder, based off other states I would say Manslaughter. Thankfully, if they can’t find enough to convict her with Murder, they can still choose manslaughter, I also heard someone mention Texas has negligent homicide which at first I thought that would be manslaughter but apparently it’s different.

I just don’t believe she can get off because she thought it was her apartment. At some point, we need to hold the ones who are responsible, responsible. I firmly believe the relationship between the community and the police officers will not get better until the ones who are held responsible for their actions are actually held accountable.

I am hoping for a murder conviction. Here is an article, not behind a paywall that explains the differences.
Dallas Observer | The Leading Independent News Source in Dallas, Texas

 

[Via Marple]

Police are always trained to shoot at center mass, not at arms or legs, so your understanding is correct and that post is not.

Even people with CCPs are trained to aim for center mass.

Why We Always Aim Center Mass Instead Of Limbs Or Head

For someone who doesn't live in the States... I am horrified to see this is what ordinary citizens with "concealed guns" can be expected to do every day... shoot to kill. JMO.

 

[mickey2942]

For someone who doesn't live in the States... I am horrified to see this is what ordinary citizens with "concealed guns" can be expected to do every day... shoot to kill. JMO.

When you go to the shooting range, center mass is the "bullseye". Heart.

It is very easy to get a "Concealed Carry" permit. And even easier to purchase a gun, without a CCW permit. But, that is a side issue. A police officer has a right to carry a weapon anytime, anywhere. That is the problem here. If AG had left her gun in a locked safe at work, Botham Jean would still be alive.

If Botham Jean had been hit center mass, in the heart, I am going to say that he was probably dead before he was at the hospital. We don't know what caliber of gun AG had...but he was shot more than once. The autopsy results should be interesting.

 

[VAgirlatheart]

I am hoping for a murder conviction. Here is an article, not behind a paywall that explains the differences.
Dallas Observer | The Leading Independent News Source in Dallas, Texas

Good article. So different from VA law, I’ve only been here for about 8 years now, but I’m so fascinated by how everything is so different.

I see the murder conviction, I understand it now because technically her intent was to shoot. I think the fact that she lives in Texas is kind of a disadvantage then if she lived somewhere like VA where you have voluntary and involuntary manslaughter.

Voluntary - heat of passion like someone that walks in and catches their spouse cheating.

Involuntary manslaughter - when someone dies as a result of the defendant's non-felonious illegal act or as a consequence of the defendant's irresponsibility or recklessness.

I’m curious to know exactly how the prosecution is going to play this out. There may be some evidence we don’t even know about yet. Do you guys think they have some good evidence?

Doubt that this is the scenario but what if they found out she literally went downstairs first and came back up to confront him. Highly doubt that’s the case based off the defenses “mistake of fact” theory.


The thing that bothers me the most is the 911 call. Now, I understand everyone reacts different and I could be wrong, but my first thought is not gonna be “oh, **** I’m gonna lose my job.” I’d like to think I’d be screaming at the 911 operator to hurry the hell up and get someone here and thinking if this guy dies, my life is over and not from a work stand point. It just sounded so heartless and maybe I just couldn’t hear it but I heard nothing that sound like she was giving aid.

And Why are you pacing around outside and not giving aid? Put the phone on speaker and give that boy aid... that’s so frustrating to me.