GUILTY TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #6

[Lillymac]

The jurors are not yet dismissed. They will be back at 1pm CT. I fear you are right about the "ineffective assistance of counsel" for the appeal.

I think the ineffectiveness of council was because his hands were tied. Had he been able to carry on with his witnesses and their testimony it would have been a different outcome.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

"He's not gonna throw the ice cream at her and kill her, he's not gonna throw the spoon at her and kill her," Assistant District Attorney Jason Fine said in closing arguments Monday. "He's sitting there the same as y'all are right now."

"[Jean] has the right to shoot that person under the Castle Doctrine, not the other way around," Fine said.

The judge also allowed jurors to be instructed on Texas' "mistake of fact" statute, a defense based on a person forming a "reasonable belief" based on a mistake that negates "the kind of culpability required for commission of the offense."

In returning the guilty verdict, the jury rejected both defenses. They also had the option to find Guyger guilty of the lesser charge of manslaughter.
Ex-Dallas cop found guilty of murder in neighbor's death

 

[gitana1]

I agree with you. I felt like she acted consistently and fairly. I do think we might see changes to the Castle Doctrine in Texas to prevent it being used as a defense in cases like this. I do not believe that was the intent of the law but, seeing this case, it is clear that the language needs to be addressed.

Yes. And if TX feels murder is too stiff a charge for this crime they can change that statute as well. Because as it is written, her conduct satisfies the elements of the TX charge. But do you agree it would be a different crime in other states?

 

[Kittybunny]

I have not followed this case at all. Just read the news story and was shocked to see all the people shouting justice was served. I am honestly confused and have come here to see what I am missing. From what I have gathered this woman believed she was entering her apartment and an unknown man was in her apartment and she shot and killed him. How is that murder? Manslaughter maybe but murder? It seems to me to be a horrible mistake that she made not murder. Should she get punished? Yes she killed someone. But a drunk driver that gets in a wreck and kills someone does not get charged with murder. She wasn't even intoxicated. Even a person in a car accident that is at fault for running a red light and kills someone does not get charged with murder. This is what I am confused about. As I said I have not followed this case and am curious what I am missing. I understand he is black but I think the same thing would have happened if he was any other race. He was a unknown man in a woman's house.

The main thing that helped me is understanding how Texas Law defines murder - much more broadly than other states and what a layperson would typically think of as such. The second is understanding that given all the circumstances, her mistaking of being outside her apartment is an unreasonable one, and that she had many other options as a trained LE than to rush in guns a'blazing.

 

[gitana1]

I think they will start with an appeal on the “change of venue” issue, and IMO she is going to get new counsel and try “ineffective assistance of counsel” as well. And guarantee they are already attempting to interview jurors.

Agreed. But she's going to lose an appeal on both grounds. Her defense wasn't stellar except closing but that's not grounds for an appeal based on ineffective assistance of counsel.

What are your thoughts?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Botham Jean's pastor speaks after former Dallas police officer Amber Guyger is convicted of murder: "This verdict is exactly what we were looking for" https://cbsnews.com/news/amber-guyger-verdict-guilty-verdict-delivered-in-ex-dallas-police-officer-trial-today-live-updates-2019-10-01/…

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Just came online and saw the WS banner omg!! It was the verdict I’d hoped for but didn’t think they would reach guilty of murder. She did murder him and Castle doctrine was never an issue because if anything it should have been Botham defending himself in his own home! He was minding his business and this woman barges into his home and shoots him dead, HE was the one who would have been within his rights to use a weapon to defend himself. Not AG, Botham Jean who was murdered and it’s official from today. She murdered an innocent man in his own home, it was not his fault she ‘thought it was her apartment’ and he lost his life because of her actions and failures and she nailed her own coffin when she admitted to the jury that she intended to kill him. Either she was given some very poor advice or she is cold.
It is not a happy occasion in any sense, nothing will bring this innocent man back but at least he has justice and his family can start to heal now. I hope this result makes another LE officer think twice before shooting just because they have the upper hand.

 

[Bennettfit]

I have not followed this case at all. Just read the news story and was shocked to see all the people shouting justice was served. I am honestly confused and have come here to see what I am missing. From what I have gathered this woman believed she was entering her apartment and an unknown man was in her apartment and she shot and killed him. How is that murder? Manslaughter maybe but murder? It seems to me to be a horrible mistake that she made not murder. Should she get punished? Yes she killed someone. But a drunk driver that gets in a wreck and kills someone does not get charged with murder. She wasn't even intoxicated. Even a person in a car accident that is at fault for running a red light and kills someone does not get charged with murder. This is what I am confused about. As I said I have not followed this case and am curious what I am missing. I understand he is black but I think the same thing would have happened if he was any other race. He was a unknown man in a woman's house.

Your last sentence indicates that you think the victim was in her house. This is not the case he was in his own apartment enjoying a bowl of ice cream when the now convicted murderer rushed into his residence without warning and shot him dead. I hope this clears up any confusion you may have.

 

[BeachSky]

When is sentencing live?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[Cryptic]

I think they will start with an appeal on the “change of venue” issue, and IMO she is going to get new counsel and try “ineffective assistance of counsel” as well. And guarantee they are already attempting to interview jurors as well.

Though I respect your view, my general understanding is that those types of appeals have a very high burden of proof (must show "egregious" errors by say the defense attorney or judge behavior that "shocks the conscious")

My general understanding is that Texas appellate courts have held that if the counsel is a member of the Bar, then it is near impossible to prove that he / she was ineffective. Even worse, In AG’s case, her council was high dollar and highly regarded. Likewise, refusals to change venue are hard to successfully appeal.

In the end, my bet is that they go for a “Reckless deaths are historically charged as Manslaughter- not Murder” type appeal

 

[gitana1]

I have not followed this case at all. Just read the news story and was shocked to see all the people shouting justice was served. I am honestly confused and have come here to see what I am missing. From what I have gathered this woman believed she was entering her apartment and an unknown man was in her apartment and she shot and killed him. How is that murder? Manslaughter maybe but murder? It seems to me to be a horrible mistake that she made not murder. Should she get punished? Yes she killed someone. But a drunk driver that gets in a wreck and kills someone does not get charged with murder. She wasn't even intoxicated. Even a person in a car accident that is at fault for running a red light and kills someone does not get charged with murder. This is what I am confused about. As I said I have not followed this case and am curious what I am missing. I understand he is black but I think the same thing would have happened if he was any other race. He was a unknown man in a woman's house.

I don't know that the same thing would've happened regardless of race. Research is pretty clear that everyone views black people as larger add more dangerous than white people in the exact same circumstances.

But I'm not sure that's the point.

It is true that in other states this crime would more likely for manslaughter.

However, while the TX murder charge is broad the sentencing range is likewise super broad. So it's unlikely we would be sentenced the way a first degree murderer would be sentenced in another state.

For example, in CA voluntary manslaughter carries a range of 3-11 years. In TX murder apparently carries a range of 5-99. So she can be sentenced to the median range of manslaughter in CA.

We will see.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

When is sentencing live?

Watch Live: Amber Guyger Sentencing Hearing in the Murder of Botham Shem Jean

 

[gitana1]

Though I respect your view, my general understanding is that those types of appeals have a very high burden of proof (must show "egregious" errors by say the defense attorney or judge behavior that "shocks the conscious")

My guess is that the change of venue argument would need to be supported by: Outsider accused of murdering a well known resident of a very small town. Social media exchanges showed most residents were rabidly against the accused-even before the trial.

Texas appellate courts have held that if the counsel is a member of the Bar, then he cannot be ineffictive unless there is a mountain of evidence to show othrwise. Simply arguing that the attorney was not an All Star level defense attorney is not sufficient. Even worse, In AG’s case, her council was high dollar and highly regarded.

In the end, my bet is that they go for a “Reckless deaths are historically charged as Manslaughter- not Murder” appeal

That's not grounds for appeal.

 

[Hraefn]

Now Dominque Alexander and his big celebration party will demand the protection of the police that he hates. IMO she would have shot whoever was in that apartment. Man, woman, black, white, purple. I don't think she got out of her truck thinking I'm going to kill someone right now. A tragic accident, and yet you can't just say - oops, my bad.

But that’s just the thing. It doesn’t matter if race affected what happened. Race didn’t have to be a factor in AG’s decision for race to be a factor in the trial, verdict, and public opinion. When a white LEO kills a person of color, race matters in how the incident is handled. Every time.

And the law doesn’t say she had to have a plan when she got out of her car, it just says she had to intend to kill him. She admitted that openly in her testimony.

 

[turaj]

One thing I think is certain, we will not be hearing from Martin Rivera as a character witness.

bet Martin is looking for a transfer...trying to reconcile with his wife. He picked the wrong gal.

 

[10ofRods]

Just popping in to say that this trial discussion has been excellent and informative.

@Gitana you rule!

Texas has some hardcore laws about murder.

I was so worried about the Castle Doctrine being misapplied here (Bo was in his castle; she was the invader).

Does the jury do the sentencing in Texas or is it the judge? So far, haven't seen AG's face, but her team sure looked glum.

 

[Canader357]

I admit to being pleasantly surprised at the verdict but that was the right call. Kudos to the jury for considering the verdict under the very specific Texas laws, not the general layman's terms for murder, which many uninformed people seem to trip up on. She point blank admitted on the stand that her intent was to kill him. I believe that she also really did make a mistake in thinking it was her apartment, but it was an unreasonable one. And then of course, there is what she actually did when she went in, which was to unholster her weapon before she even went in and knew what she would find, and shoot Mr. Jean without thought, consideration, prudence, or common sense, when she had many other options available to her as a LE officer wearing a uniform and carrying many non-lethal weapons, one of which included a cell phone. She could have:
1. Retreated and called 911
2. Knocked on the door and said "HEY! Who's in there? I'm a police officer, come out with your hands up" - and if she got no response, retreated and called 911
3. Paused, assessed the situation and then proceeded cautiously while issuing verbal commands (which although this is what she said she did, evidence, testimony, and bullet trajectory do not support)
4. Paused, assessed the situation, be like "Wait why is there someone in my apartment" looked at her surroundings which included a BRIGHT RED DOORMAT, read the apartment number, relaxed and laughed to herself, "Oh my god, I'm at the wrong apartment! What an idiot!" and got back on the elevator to continue sexting with her partner, leaving Mr. Jean to enjoy his bowl of ice cream with cookies

Sadly, none of these happened. What a tragedy all around, and yes, despite her callous behavior after, I do feel a bit sorry for her too, because who imagines that this would end this way? But my real heartbreak is for Botham Jean's family and friends who have to live without his bright light in the world.

Who Shoots Someone When They Are Sitting Down Eating Ice Cream Anyway? Omg This Is Beyond Sad And I Feel For That Family Dearly.. What A Wicked Thing To Do..

 

[Betty P]

Let's hope it does change the gung-ho behavior exhibited by some in LE.
I for one don't want to see anymore innocent people in their own homes shot and killed.

Agree, LE shooting people in their own homes is supposed to be a last resort, not a first choice, especially when no one has called for assistance or reported a crime.

 

[10ofRods]

Just popping in to say that this trial discussion has been excellent and informative.

@Gitana you rule!

Texas has some hardcore laws about murder.

I was so worried about the Castle Doctrine being misapplied here (Bo was in his castle; she was the invader).

Does the jury do the sentencing in Texas or is it the judge? So far, haven't seen AG's face, but her team sure looked glum.