TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #2

[jgfitzge]

It would have been impossible for him to see the girls a night or two prior. Julie was only there by unfortunate chance that day. She and Rachel barely knew each other.

And although not every one makes small talk at work, Bill Hutchins was a security guard for the very store in whose parking lot the car was found. It wouldn't have been small talk. It would have been important work related information. It defies credibility that all mall security would not be aware of the disappearance, especially anyone who worked at Sears. Yet he claimed he only learned of the disappearance from news reports a couple days later.

Mr. Hutchins was also a former police officer who claimed he left the FWPD to take the job as a Sears security guard, which makes it even more difficult to believe he wouldn't have followed up.

His statement was extremely vague. He says he had some sort of confrontation with the other security guard but doesn't say about what. Just that he ended up apologizing for using foul language. He also says he made conversation with the girls but didn't say about what. The only things he was specific about were the impossible time, the seating arrangement, and his contention the girls were laughing and there willingly. Rachel was married, Renee had a Christmas party to attend with a boy who'd just given her a promise ring, and Julie was only nine years old. There is no way they were out joking and laughing that night.

And again, the police interviewed the other security guard.

Hi, you raise some good points. As I mentioned earlier, I was about Rachel's age, in college, 75-77 when I was working a part time job at our local mall. Sears was the big anchor store with the separate auto/tire shop across the lot. Anyway, I remember the Sears had plain clothes security, not uniformed. The mall was patrolled by uniformed security employed by the mall management company as well as the local police. Oddly the Sears employed the same female undercover person for several years, everyone knew who she was...

 

[Via Marple]

Hi, you raise some good points. As I mentioned earlier, I was about Rachel's age, in college, 75-77 when I was working a part time job at our local mall. Sears was the big anchor store with the separate auto/tire shop across the lot. Anyway, I remember the Sears had plain clothes security, not uniformed. The mall was patrolled by uniformed security employed by the mall management company as well as the local police. Oddly the Sears employed the same female undercover person for several years, everyone knew who she was...

Interesting that there were ample security around the mall, and no one noticed three girls being abducted, except for a few shoppers who reported suspicions afterwards. They must have gone quietly...

I said no speculation from me but just have to say that the security guard might have a grudge against the other one JMO!

 

[Thewop356]

Ozoner, I posted nothing inaccurate about the Lyons Girls case, but regardless of that, there is no point in discussing the Lyons Girls unless it specifically relates to the Fort Worth Trio. Your post didn't do that. It was a standalone post that didn't even mention the Trio. This one does, which is much appreciated. Like I said previously, I think it's important to stay on track and make sure that all posts here are related to Rachel, Renee, and Julie. It just gets too confusing to new people otherwise.

Also, there are no unknown security guard suspects in this case. There are two security guards. Bill Hutchins, who was interviewed by media and the FW police department, came forward and said he saw the girls sitting in the vehicle with another security guard. LE told NBC5 that they interviewed that security guard back in 2001 and he denied being with the girls. This doesn't mean that neither men weren't or aren't suspects, just that their identities are not unknown. At least not to LE.


As far as Richard Welch I'm not sure if he was in Texas in 1974. The FBI has not released a timeline for him like they did for his nephew. I would imagine this is because Richard Welch had a fairly stable lifestyle in comparison to Lloyd Lee Welch who was a drifter who traveled and worked short stints at a time as a landscaper or carnival worker in various states (including Texas in 1974).

And yes, it's very possible that discussion of suspects will soon be a moot point. I don't think that will be the case, but I'm hoping I'm wrong because I want these families to receive answers. I've always been supportive of the dive because I feel so deeply for their plight and if they want this stone overturned, I want that for them also. And if it simply ends with this theory being eliminated there's value in that, too.

Actually the FBI has released a timeline for LLWs know whereabouts. He was in Austin, TX on January 9, 1974 however it doesn't state for how long. He also was for sure in Wheaton, MD by March 1975 and according to statements from his family he had been in MD for a while before March 25 1975. How long a while is...I am not sure, but the FBI at least has not stated where he was from January 9, 1974 until March 25, 1975. I will look for more accurate info on his known whereabouts during the next few days and share what I find.

 

[TGwebs]

Actually the FBI has released a timeline for LLWs know whereabouts. He was in Austin, TX on January 9, 1975 however it doesn't state for how long. He also was for sure in Wheaton, MD by March 1975 and according to statements from his family he had been in MD for a while before March 25 1975. How long a while is...I am not sure, but the FBI at least has not stated where he was from January 9, 1975 until March 25, 1975. I will look for more accurate info on his known whereabouts during the next few days and share what I find.

Welch was in Austin in January of 1974, not 1975. His next known whereabouts were March 1975 at the Wheaton Mall when he abducted and killed the Lyons sisters.

Thewop356, If you were able to find out where he was in the intervening months that would be amazing. I haven't been able to find anything myself. I think the FBI would be interested also. They released the timeline because they want help from the public. The other significant question would be if his girlfriend, Helen Craven was with him in Texas. She's deceased now, but she was in the picture back then and traveled with him. He implicated her in the Lyons sister murder along with his Uncle and cousin. It's a horrible thing to think about. It's impossible to know if he killed them on his own or not. I'm just grateful he's been convicted for his part.

Here's the FBI timeline: Person of Interest Named in Kidnapping of Lyon Sisters; Others Victims Sought

 

[Deleted member 165916]

It would have been impossible for him to see the girls a night or two prior. Julie was only there by unfortunate chance that day. She and Rachel barely knew each other.

And although not every one makes small talk at work, Bill Hutchins was a security guard for the very store in whose parking lot the car was found. It wouldn't have been small talk. It would have been important work related information. It defies credibility that all mall security would not be aware of the disappearance, especially anyone who worked at Sears. Yet he claimed he only learned of the disappearance from news reports a couple days later.

Mr. Hutchins was also a former police officer who claimed he left the FWPD to take the job as a Sears security guard, which makes it even more difficult to believe he wouldn't have followed up.

His statement was extremely vague. He says he had some sort of confrontation with the other security guard but doesn't say about what. Just that he ended up apologizing for using foul language. He also says he made conversation with the girls but didn't say about what. The only things he was specific about were the impossible time, the seating arrangement, and his contention the girls were laughing and there willingly. Rachel was married, Renee had a Christmas party to attend with a boy who'd just given her a promise ring, and Julie was only nine years old. There is no way they were out joking and laughing that night.

And again, the police interviewed the other security guard.

There is more to his tale, many years after the fact, than meets the eye. And less. I am discouraged by FWPD investigation on many levels, but just about everyone agrees his account of events don't line up with anything that is known to have occurred.

 

[TGwebs]

There is more to his tale, many years after the fact, than meets the eye. And less. I am discouraged by FWPD investigation on many levels, but just about everyone agrees his account of events don't line up with anything that is known to have occurred.

I agree. No one who has spent any amount of time researching this case takes that account seriously.

 

[Thewop356]

Welch was in Austin in January of 1974, not 1975. His next known whereabouts were March 1975 at the Wheaton Mall when he abducted and killed the Lyons sisters.

Thewop356, If you were able to find out where he was in the intervening months that would be amazing. I haven't been able to find anything myself. I think the FBI would be interested also. They released the timeline because they want help from the public. The other significant question would be if his girlfriend, Helen Craven was with him in Texas. She's deceased now, but she was in the picture back then and traveled with him. He implicated her in the Lyons sister murder along with his Uncle and cousin. It's a horrible thing to think about. It's impossible to know if he killed them on his own or not. I'm just grateful he's been convicted for his part.

Here's the FBI timeline: Person of Interest Named in Kidnapping of Lyon Sisters; Others Victims Sought

Actually the FBI has released a timeline for LLWs know whereabouts. He was in Austin, TX on January 9, 1975 however it doesn't state for how long. He also was for sure in Wheaton, MD by March 1975 and according to statements from his family he had been in MD for a while before March 25 1975. How long a while is...I am not sure, but the FBI at least has not stated where he was from January 9, 1974 until March 25, 1975. I will look for more accurate info on his known whereabouts during the next few days and share what I find.

yeah...sorry, that was a typo the I didn't catch but I did refer to January 9, 1974 the second time I referenced it in my post. Anyway...I am currently reviewing all the public court documents where either LLW or someone else might mention why he was in Austin how long he was there. I did find where his cousin said he had been in the Wheaton, MD area "for a while" before March 25, 1975. Since the LE investigation of LLW didn't start until 2014, I would think for them to be able to verify he was in Austin on such a precise date that there would only be a few ways to do that especially considering how young he was in 1974. The only thing I can think of is that some local LE in Austin ran a NCIC on him that could be verified by the FBI. Unfortunately it could be many other reasons, but that is my best guess so if I can verify that then I can try to find out why they were running a NCIC on him. It is gonna take me a while, but I am gonna look really deep into it even if only to just eliminate him as a suspect in my opinion. I live about 30 minutes from where LLW is incarcerated and about 5 minutes from where he committed his crime that got him sent to prison in Delaware to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

One thing I want yall to think about, since I might get kicked off, is this: Regarding Carla Walker's case: it is a fact that she was abducted by a stranger from the parking lot of a bowling alley near the "traffic circle" [crime scene #1], and her body found days later in a culvert near the lake [crime scene #3 or #4.] Her killer did not walk her there. That would make crime scene #2 A CAR. It could be down there. A vehicle traced to her prime suspect, alive and well living in Texas after spending 23 years in prison for a subsequent assault. Other suspects, in these and other cases that were in and around this area - what were they driving?

 

[Deleted member 165916]

I know! I've read that there numerous times, too! And I couldn't agree with you more about the letter. It's puzzling and interesting but not proof of anything.

It is proof of one thing that is significant. It is proof that TT lied. Why does he need to lie? Shame on that idiot Wilbanks. Maybe if you are a detective within the juvenile system 97% of your cases are "runaways." So, if the only tool you have is a hammer; does everything look like a nail? Even at the age of 17 years and 38 days, Rachel - a married child - was an emancipated woman. The 2 "minor children", her companions, should have been considered kidnapped BY HER and the case handled as a crime. It wasn't.

 

[Thewop356]

One thing I want yall to think about, since I might get kicked off, is this: Regarding Carla Walker's case: it is a fact that she was abducted by a stranger from the parking lot of a bowling alley near the "traffic circle" [crime scene #1], and her body found days later in a culvert near the lake [crime scene #3 or #4.] Her killer did not walk her there. That would make crime scene #2 A CAR. It could be down there. A vehicle traced to her prime suspect, alive and well living in Texas after spending 23 years in prison for a subsequent assault. Other suspects, in these and other cases that were in and around this area - what were they driving?

Wow..that's right. Carla's body was found in a culvert near Benbrook Lake. It would be weird though that the murderer would dump the car in the lake and leave the body behind to be found. However it may have been someone who wanted her found for one reason or another. What a great thing that would be if both cases could be solved by bringing up these cars out of the lake. I know you have been looking into the Carla Walker case for a long time as well as these girls and I am pretty sure you don't think so, but now I gotta ask....Are you saying that you believe that these two cases could be related? Just asking because I don't remember you specifically mentioning it. But she was kidnapped from a bowling alley and that is where TT said he was the night the trio disappeared. Was Carla kidnapped from the same bowling alley that TT frequented?

 

[Deleted member 165916]

Wow..that's right. Carla's body was found in a culvert near Benbrook Lake. It would be weird though that the murderer would dump the car in the lake and leave the body behind to be found. However it may have been someone who wanted her found for one reason or another. What a great thing that would be if both cases could be solved by bringing up these cars out of the lake. I know you have been looking into the Carla Walker case for a long time as well as these girls and I am pretty sure you don't think so, but now I gotta ask....Are you saying that you believe that these two cases could be related? Just asking because Idon't remember you specifically mentioning it. But she was kidnapped from a bowling alley and that is where TT said he was the night the trio disappeared. Was Carla kidnapped from the same bowling alley that TT frequented?

The short answer is NO. Coincidence.
Since you bring up the intersection of the cases. ; I may as well put all of the preliminary here as to how they compare and contrast. [orgive the nonsense character string. I knocked over a 32 oz Dr.Pepper] Going to bed. G'Nite.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

Wow..that's right. Carla's body was found in a culvert near Benbrook Lake. It would be weird though that the murderer would dump the car in the lake and leave the body behind to be found. However it may have been someone who wanted her found for one reason or another. What a great thing that would be if both cases could be solved by bringing up these cars out of the lake. I know you have been looking into the Carla Walker case for a long time as well as these girls and I am pretty sure you don't think so, but now I gotta ask....Are you saying that you believe that these two cases could be related? Just asking because I don't remember you specifically mentioning it. But she was kidnapped from a bowling alley and that is where TT said he was the night the trio disappeared. Was Carla kidnapped from the same bowling alley that TT frequented?

Since you bring it up...I'll work on it and post it tomorrow.

 

[Ozoner]

I agree. No one who has spent any amount of time researching this case takes that account seriously.

That isn't true; I've spent time researching the case, and I take the account seriously.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

That isn't true; I've spent time researching the case, and I take the account seriously.

I appreciate what you are saying. Don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, however, I interpreted TGweb's comment imply that no one in LE takes that account seriously. I am reluctant to rule things out "forever," but I have reasons from my own experience to doubt the account - on its face. In the summer of '75 I stormed into the mall office and reported my beige Volkswagon "Super-beetle" stolen from the parking lot west of J.C. Penny's. It was 8:30pm. Not only were the security folks not at all alarmed. Their offer was to drive me around the lots after the mall closed. Furious they thought I was so stupid I didn't know where I had parked my car I sat there and fumed for 30 minutes. I'll be damned. My car was parked outside the garden department of Sears. I forgot I moved the car to pick up a catalog order (30 minute parking), stuck it in the car - remembered something I wanted from Murphy's, took the escalator up and got distracted. Probably lucky my car wasn't towed. It was embarrassing; but obviously such a common occurrence mall security had a plan. I know I was driven around in a small white Datsun pickup with two amber lights on top. The mall security vehicles (both of them) were too small to seat 4 people. Period.

 

[Ozoner]

I appreciate what you are saying. Don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, however, I interpreted TGweb's comment imply that no one in LE takes that account seriously. I am reluctant to rule things out "forever," but I have reasons from my own experience to doubt the account - on its face. In the summer of '75 I stormed into the mall office and reported my beige Volkswagon "Super-beetle" stolen from the parking lot west of J.C. Penny's. It was 8:30pm. Not only were the security folks not at all alarmed. Their offer was to drive me around the lots after the mall closed. Furious they thought I was so stupid I didn't know where I had parked my car I sat there and fumed for 30 minutes. I'll be damned. My car was parked outside the garden department of Sears. I forgot I moved the car to pick up a catalog order (30 minute parking), stuck it in the car - remembered something I wanted from Murphy's, took the escalator up and got distracted. Probably lucky my car wasn't towed. It was embarrassing; but obviously such a common occurrence mall security had a plan. I know I was driven around in a small white Datsun pickup with two amber lights on top. The mall security vehicles (both of them) were too small to seat 4 people. Period.

It's been a while since I read Hutchins's account, but I don't recall his saying that the other security guard was driving a company vehicle. I took him to mean that the security guard was driving his personal vehicle, which was a pick-up truck.

 

[Via Marple]

I appreciate what you are saying. Don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, however, I interpreted TGweb's comment imply that no one in LE takes that account seriously. I am reluctant to rule things out "forever," but I have reasons from my own experience to doubt the account - on its face. In the summer of '75 I stormed into the mall office and reported my beige Volkswagon "Super-beetle" stolen from the parking lot west of J.C. Penny's. It was 8:30pm. Not only were the security folks not at all alarmed. Their offer was to drive me around the lots after the mall closed. Furious they thought I was so stupid I didn't know where I had parked my car I sat there and fumed for 30 minutes. I'll be damned. My car was parked outside the garden department of Sears. I forgot I moved the car to pick up a catalog order (30 minute parking), stuck it in the car - remembered something I wanted from Murphy's, took the escalator up and got distracted. Probably lucky my car wasn't towed. It was embarrassing; but obviously such a common occurrence mall security had a plan. I know I was driven around in a small white Datsun pickup with two amber lights on top. The mall security vehicles (both of them) were too small to seat 4 people. Period.

Wow, I have to say that was a great way to sleuth the case, without knowing!

So it was quite common for security to drive lost shoppers around. Hmm. So if 3 people were lost, someone would have to drive the driver to find the car, then the driver would return to the mall office in own car to pick up the others. Unless both security vehicles went out together - then two guards would have been involved.

Feels so unlikely..

 

[Deleted member 165916]

Wow, I have to say that was a great way to sleuth the case, without knowing!

So it was quite common for security to drive lost shoppers around. Hmm. So if 3 people were lost, someone would have to drive the driver to find the car, then the driver would return to the mall office in own car to pick up the others. Unless both security vehicles went out together - then two guards would have been involved.

Feels so unlikely..

...and they wouldn't do that until 10pm. So, you would have to believe that at the MINIMUM those girls wandered the parking lot 7 hours? One theory is that Hutchins read the account of them being seen with a security guard in a mall pickup and inserted himself into the case 20 years later. Read the account of his "involvement." It's preposterous. Were it not for Debardeleben he would have been shown the door. Again, none of it part of the initial investigation.

 

[Ozoner]

...and they wouldn't do that until 10pm. So, you would have to believe that at the MINIMUM those girls wandered the parking lot 7 hours? One theory is that Hutchins read the account of them being seen with a security guard in a mall pickup and inserted himself into the case 20 years later. Read the account of his "involvement." It's preposterous. Were it not for Debardeleben he would have been shown the door. Again, none of it part of the initial investigation.

Your logic is flawed. You still haven't addressed the point that the other security guard could have been driving his personal vehicle. You can't just say that Hutchins's story can't be true because some other truck--the Datsun---was too small.

 

[Mysteries1974]

What do they plan on finding in the cars at the bottom of the lake? The girls remains?

 

[Mysteries1974]

I hope something is found that helps solve this case.