TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #3

[Deleted member 165916]

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On a separate note, it's interesting to know that Tommy was adopted. Adopted children often have severe anger issues.
Adoptees CAN Control Their Anger–Really! « Sherrie Eldridge
anger in adopted children – Hopscotch Adoptions

Replying to this in pieces:
[Part One]
"Yes, but where would they have gone if they had finished their shopping? How close to Seminary South was Rachel and Tommy's house? Is it plausible that the girls could have driven to Rachel & Tommy's house, or is it more or less certain that they would have taken Julie home first?
Someone may have abducted or murdered to girls elsewhere and then returned the Oldsmobile to the Sears upper lot. The lack of presents in the car doesn't mean anything. Some reports say that gifts were in the car, but even if no presents were present, the culprit could have destroyed those presents in order to make it appear that that the girls had not made it back to their car. It's also possible that the girls left the mall without buying anything."
I have provided several maps with routes and estimated time and distance here in the past 2 years. WS is a pig for bandwidth - so it's probable those images are gone. Have patience me and I'll re-post. What you will see is that the circumstances placed limits what could have possibly happened. The years have ruled out countless potential realities. The extremes. I agree that anything is possible. I work with what is probable based on facts that are indisputable and the next best thing.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

[Part Two]
"On a separate note, it's interesting to know that Tommy was adopted. Adopted children often have severe anger issues."
The things I noted about Tommy's adoption:
1) His parents were older. And childless.
2) He remained an only child.
3) He was involved in scouting, but no sports, beyond freshman track and field.
Tommy grew up socially isolated with parents that loved him. They weren't up for the job. The facts of that adoption is why I looked around to see if he was their blood. It was one of the 3 ways an inconvenient pregnancy was handled, back in the day.
I could probably prove my theory if it mattered more than it does.
I think Tommy suffered abandonment issues. Secrets make families sick. I wonder when he figured out that his "real mother" was a family member that gave him away? My memory of Tommy is that he was empty, not angry.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

Not being rude... just confused.

In a post up you said, "That would be Robbie Ramsel. Same class as Tommy [1971], tall funny guy everyone liked. He was in that crowd Tommy hung around."

In this post you said, "If Tommy had "friends" I can't think of who they would be."


Can you clarify which is correct?

Actually, both statements are correct. Tommy smoked on the same corner with the "popular" bad boys, but was not a member of their circle. Thus, he liked to hang around that cliche. "Friends"; they were not. I do not know of anyone Tommy spent time with that he would have considered a friend. Alone - is the way I remember him.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

Hmmm..
How about the girls were abducted for their jewellery and Christmas presents? Then the perps realised those presents were only $23's worth, jewellery not much more, so they decided to kidnap them for ransom.

Somehow the girls were accidentally killed so the perps returned the girls' car to the place of abduction, at great risk to themselves (getting caught), to pretend nothing had happened outside the mall. Of course they had also disposed of the bodies, and cleaned up all traces of their activities on the car.

How likely was that scenario? Brainstorm

CRIKEY! You may have cracked the case!
(it is ok to smile, we all do)

 

[Deleted member 165916]

If there was only one credible witness who saw the girls at Seminary South, how did LE come to the theory that they left with "someone they trusted"? (Yes I am back there). There was little evidence what they were doing while they were inside the mall. Let alone how they got to leave. LE better have some more witnesses that you don't know of.

LE knows a crime scene when they see one. That locked Oldsmobile was not a crime scene. You add three sets of parents; the victims, the circumstances of the "shopping trip" as told by 3 different families. Now add in the first 24 hours a "runaway" letter that conveniently aligns with the LE junk idea told to everyone on that parking lot by 11pm the night before. The Letter that is dismissed 24 hours later. LE enforcement has known all along who is responsible. This isn't about what they believe, or know, it's about what they can prove. The case needs a confession. When we find them; we will get it.

 

[raven9860]

[Part Two]
"On a separate note, it's interesting to know that Tommy was adopted. Adopted children often have severe anger issues."
The things I noted about Tommy's adoption:
1) His parents were older. And childless.
2) He remained an only child.
3) He was involved in scouting, but no sports, beyond freshman track and field.
Tommy grew up socially isolated with parents that loved him. They weren't up for the job. The facts of that adoption is why I looked around to see if he was their blood. It was one of the 3 ways an inconvenient pregnancy was handled, back in the day.
I could probably prove my theory if it mattered more than it does.
I think Tommy suffered abandonment issues. Secrets make families sick. I wonder when he figured out that his "real mother" was a family member that gave him away? My memory of Tommy is that he was empty, not angry.

Same could be said for Julie's father. Except his had an added twist. His aunt was his biological mother.

On the flipside is Rachel's father. Born and raise by his birth parents. And by all accounts, terrorised his daughters.

 

[Kaiser Sousa]

LE knows a crime scene when they see one. That locked Oldsmobile was not a crime scene. You add three sets of parents; the victims, the circumstances of the "shopping trip" as told by 3 different families. Now add in the first 24 hours a ******** "runaway" letter that conveniently aligns with the LE junk idea told to everyone on that parking lot by 11pm the night before. The Letter that is dismissed 24 hours later. LE enforcement has known all along who is responsible. This isn't about what they believe, or know, it's about what they can prove. The case needs a confession. When we find them; we will get it.

Are you saying LE knows who did it?? I don't doubt that/I spoke to a retired detective that was positive of the identity of Carla Walker's killer but said there was not enough to bring him in.

 

[raven9860]

JMO... the person that did this is long dead.

 

[raven9860]

JMO... the person that did this is long dead.

 

[Kaiser Sousa]

Actually, both statements are correct. Tommy smoked on the same corner with the "popular" bad boys, but was not a member of their circle. Thus, he liked to hang around that cliche. "Friends"; they were not. I do not know of anyone Tommy spent time with that he would have considered a friend. Alone - is the way I remember him.

Of the people I know that knew him their descriptions of how they remember him were (and if I'm breaking rules please delete) "Dumb as a rock" "Bad influence" "Weird" "Crazy as *advertiser censored*" and I also remember some of the girls back in the day saying he was cute. Did he have his own car sooner than most the other kids?

 

[Deleted member 165916]

This is my understanding as well.

"My curiosity with this is why the Arnold family would have been the first to worry and start to search."
Could it be because they weren't?

"Rachel, to my knowledge, had not seen them that day or spoken with them (other than Debra)."
There is a part of RA's narrative that states Rachel dropped by her parent's house and asked her mom to go along. Maybe she did. It changes nothing.

"I know that Terry Moseley was around when they departed for their shopping trip, and would’ve been expecting his sister and girlfriend to return at some point, but he was a youngster too at the time so I wouldn’t think he would go into worry mode until later in the evening."
Careful calling Terry a youngster! He was 15 years old. Janet and her friend did get dropped off at the mall a little while later. Eleven and twelve-year-old girls running around Seminary South without adult supervision was typical in our culture during that time. This is a perfect example of that. "Meet us at Murphy's at noon" was a target idea. Any of them would have expected to run into one another eventually. But that didn't happen. I speculate Julie, Renee, and Rachel headed for the car at 1:30. Through Sears, down the escalator, out through the Garden Center. Bored and hungry. Two football fields from that Oldsmobile...

"I have hear the story of RA and his mom going to the mall and searching store to store, though I don’t know that is accurate."
I know for a fact that did not take place on the 23rd, the 24th, or the 25th. If Francis felt that was a worthwhile thing to do, and went from store to store with little Rusty paging the girls over the P.A.systems, it was Thursday, the 26th - four days after they went missing.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

Of the people I know that knew him their descriptions of how they remember him were (and if I'm breaking rules please delete) "Dumb as a rock" "Bad influence" "Weird" "Crazy as ****" and I also remember some of the girls back in the day saying he was cute. Did he have his own car sooner than most the other kids?

Tommy was nice-looking. There were popular boys in the class-clown group he shadowed that had dreadful skin, very unfortunate hair, etc. LOL. I don't recall a one of them successful with the ladies. There was something "left out" about Tommy, something dark and grim. He had a few "first dates." Those girls would back up what the crazy. Even the boy scouts that knew him have bad memories.
He did get a car for his 16th birthday. So did most Wedgwood kids. What I remember about his car is that it was the sort of car your very old parents might "surprise" you with. It was not a car he would have chosen for himself. That's how you know it's a "gift." I know of only one worse 16th birthday car. It's a social disaster.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

I have also read in an old Star Telegram article that BOTH of Rachel's parents went to the mall.

You will read that in many Star Telegram articles where the source of the information is the Arnold family. The Wilsons, the Moseley's, and the police know it just ain't so.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

JMO... the person that did this is long dead.

There are a lot of people in a great deal of pain who would appreciate anything you have to share ...JMO

 

[Via Marple]

JMO... the person that did this is long dead.

I would also like to ask too. Is it ok to elaborate on this, without naming names?

You will read that in many Star Telegram articles where the source of the information is the Arnold family. The Wilsons, the Moseley's, and the police know it just ain't so.

From the stuff that I had read on that group, Terry Moseley was not contradicting Rusty. He did clarify things when the discussion got totally absurd... But not about what Rusty said.

I suppose one has to tread carefully in that group.

 

[Dash]

There are a lot of people in a great deal of pain who would appreciate anything you have to share ...JMO

There is alot known that is not shared with the public and all of this is watched carefuly to get the proof of all connections. That you or I or the others share.
Rusty is a bundle of nerves , knowing many things. But trying to put pieces togather to really be certain of what did occur... I pray he and the others recieve the final conformation. There are still living people who could speak up. More of them than I could have imagined . Keep investigating and pray your words are guided in the right direction. My personal theory they went some where else beside the mall and the young one went nosing around and saw something that sealed their fate. No proof but, a theory. Or shell I say a feeling that does not let me rest.

 

[raven9860]

There are a lot of people in a great deal of pain who would appreciate anything you have to share ...JMO

Of course!

 

[Ozoner]

JMO... the person that did this is long dead.

One question that keeps bugging me is, "Why would Rachel's mother lie in order to give Tommy an airtight alibi?," which is what's been alleged. Why would any mother lie in order to supply an alibi to a son-in-law who might have murdered her daughter?
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A mother would only do that if she were certain that her son-in-law was innocent. How could Rachel's mother have been certain that Tommy was innocent? That's easy: she knew who the real murderer was—her husband, Cotton Arnold.
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We know that Cotton was hard up for cash. What if Cotton's friend the serial rapist and human tooth collector had been paying Cotton for years for the privilege of having his way with Rachel? What if the friend expected Cotton to continue supplying the merchandise even though Rachel was married? Cotton and his friend might have abducted the girls from the mall or from Rachel and Tommy's house. The friend might have decided that he wanted to sexually assault all three girls. Afterward, he and Cotton may have decided to murder all three girls so that the girls couldn't talk.
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So Rusty has stated that Rachel stopped by that day in order to invite her mother to go shopping? Maybe Rusty has a memory of Rachel being at the Arnolds' house that day, and that story is how Rusty's mother explained away Rachel's presence at the house.
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LE has used ground penetrating radar and dug in various places looking for the girls, but did LE ever dig up Cotton Arnold's back yard?
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I'm not necessarily sold on the theory that I just outlined, but it seems plausible in light of what we know about Cotton.

 

[raven9860]

You are right where I am. Even with the addition of the convicted pedophile.

I'll been researching like crazy to find more info on them both. No one is willing to give up anything on Rachel's father.

Never bought the someone they trusted theory.

No one has more control over you than someone you fear.

 

[k-mac]

don't have a clue ozoner but I think its great bringing forward the idea that this is likely a crime committed much closer to home than a boogie man theory who leaves no trace.

the dynamics of the people around the girls deserves putting under the microscope....if there is nothing there then the person has nothing to worry about and if they are innocent shouldn't mind turning over every stone including themselves.

it is a redflag something was up at home for Rachel and debra wanting out of there.
but the girls still continued relationships with their parents so whatever the issue was they felt they were handling it imo.