TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #6

[Brightchaser47]

At the very least, DA knows something. I wonder if she was threatened or intimidated by TT, during or after the "disappearance". I also wonder how much her parents knew/were involved. Not to pick on a dead man, but...

 

[beubeubeu]

Polygraphs mean nothing. They are pseudo-science. A person cannot "pass" a polygraph. A polygraph test is a tool used by law enforcement to try to intimidate suspects, nothing more.

Polygraphs don't mean much to people who are well aware of the way they work and how accurate (inaccurate) they could be, and how wrong conclusions can be made cause of stress, health, attempts to influence the results and so on.
Yet, to this day failing polygraph makes people guilty in the eyes of the public and refusing to take one is also - hella suspicious. And to this day they are sometimes used as a 100% accurate way to rule out/rule in suspects.
It's the matter of last decade (mostly) that lawyers started, by default, strongly discouraging their clients from agreeing to take a polygraph test - cause of the bad outcome and issues that it caused to innocent people who believed that it'll just help them but instead...
Polygraphs absolutely were used by LE as a magic tool with full accuracy in the past.

So IMO to really tell what it could mean that person refused or decided to stop polygraph test many additional details should be known:
- was the person of the belief that this is a magic tool that can tell they're lying?
- was the person scared that failing polygraph will make them look guilty to LE or in the eyes of the public?
- was the person advised to refuse polygraph by a lawyer or someone aware how they work?
and many more.
Still, polygraphs could be useful, even taking many of it's disadvantages in consideration.

I agree wholeheartedly- that's pretty suspicious. As I understand it, her responses didn't conclusively settle anything, but TT was able to pass with flying colors, every time. That had to be frustrating for both LE and DA.

And this is honestly, IMO more suspicious than failing or refusing to take one.
Cause we're theoretically talking about young man, basically a honeymooner, who - according to him - lost love of his life, so his whole life shattered, two more young girls disappeared, he was highely suspicious in other's eyes. That would cause average person so much stress that they'd probably not pass with flying colors every time.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Polygraphs don't mean much to people who are well aware of the way they work and how accurate (inaccurate) they could be, and how wrong conclusions can be made cause of stress, health, attempts to influence the results and so on.
Yet, to this day failing polygraph makes people guilty in the eyes of the public and refusing to take one is also - hella suspicious. And to this day they are sometimes used as a 100% accurate way to rule out/rule in suspects.
It's the matter of last decade (mostly) that lawyers started, by default, strongly discouraging their clients from agreeing to take a polygraph test - cause of the bad outcome and issues that it caused to innocent people who believed that it'll just help them but instead...
Polygraphs absolutely were used by LE as a magic tool with full accuracy in the past.

So IMO to really tell what it could mean that person refused or decided to stop polygraph test many additional details should be known:
- was the person of the belief that this is a magic tool that can tell they're lying?
- was the person scared that failing polygraph will make them look guilty to LE or in the eyes of the public?
- was the person advised to refuse polygraph by a lawyer or someone aware how they work?
and many more.
Still, polygraphs could be useful, even taking many of it's disadvantages in consideration.

And this is honestly, IMO more suspicious than failing or refusing to take one.
Cause we're theoretically talking about young man, basically a honeymooner, who - according to him - lost love of his life, so his whole life shattered, two more young girls disappeared, he was highely suspicious in other's eyes. That would cause average person so much stress that they'd probably not pass with flying colors every time.

You make some interesting points. Obviously, I'm not read up on polygraphs. I just meant, it had to frustrate DA:
1. To be begged/bullied to take one
2. That her alleged partner in crime could take numerous tests with no problem, while she's frazzled enough to walk out of one.
For what it's worth, I do have a hard time believing Rachel was the "love of his life", etc. I'd say RA misses her more than TT does.

 

[beubeubeu]

At the very least, DA knows something. I wonder if she was threatened or intimidated by TT, during or after the "disappearance". I also wonder how much her parents knew/were involved. Not to pick on a dead man, but...

I'd absolutely pick on a dead man.
There should be no doubt in what TT, DA, FA and CA said they were doing on the 23rd.

If and when they saw Rachel and the other girls?
If and when they were leaving their houses?
What car they used? Who gave them a ride? Did they gave a ride to someone?
Did Rachel called them on that day? When and if so, what did she say?
When they learned about the disappearance? How they learned that? What they did afterwards?

Those things vary and they vary a lot in retellings of the case. And CA's statements are never there. Is that cause they disappeared from the news and stories cause he passed away or did he never gave one?
Also: was that story about him guarding the oldsmobile during the night on the 23/24th just an honest mistake by the journalist covering the story at some point or did someone brought that up?
Cause in reality it was Renee's dad and his friend, but he got turned into so devoted into search that not minding stage IV cancer CA, who died of heartbreak after losing his daughter.

Wondering what could happen won't lead us anywhere. Cause what you said could absolutely happen. As well as TT threatening A's that if they'll say anything against him, he'll drag DA down with him (no matter if she was really involved or not)... or him being the one threatened.

 

[beubeubeu]

So, what physical locations have been searched, and how thoroughly?

None? And not at all?
Car not fingerprinted, not searched, just looked at and returned to TT, immediately.
Families looked around the mall, Renee's dad searched parking for the car.
And that's about it?

What is the expectation on forensic testing on the letter? it will have the fingerprints/DNA of TT and DA and LE personel who handled it back in the day. Then what?

To tell who licked the letter and envelope. Fingerprints... not sure if taken at the time, when they still could try. Probably not - even thou it likely wouldn't be very fruitful.
As mentioned in podcast - post box at Minot wasn't fingerprinted in the case that it wasn't the postman who delivered it. Postman not questioned about it. Basically nothing was done.

The issue with the envelope is that there is not enough DNA there left to do test... or rather there wasn't enough in 2000. With today's technology it should be possible if done by the right lab.

 

[wdmcmahan]

Also: was that story about him guarding the oldsmobile during the night on the 23/24th just an honest mistake by the journalist covering the story at some point or did someone brought that up?
Cause in reality it was Julie's dad and his friend, but he got turned into so devoted into search that not minding stage IV cancer CA, who died of heartbreak after losing his daughter.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I'd absolutely pick on a dead man.
There should be no doubt in what TT, DA, FA and CA said they were doing on the 23rd.

If and when they saw Rachel and the other girls?
If and when they were leaving their houses?
What car they used? Who gave them a ride? Did they gave a ride to someone?
Did Rachel called them on that day? When and if so, what did she say?
When they learned about the disappearance? How they learned that? What they did afterwards?

Those things vary and they vary a lot in retellings of the case. And CA's statements are never there. Is that cause they disappeared from the news and stories cause he passed away or did he never gave one?
Also: was that story about him guarding the oldsmobile during the night on the 23/24th just an honest mistake by the journalist covering the story at some point or did someone brought that up?
Cause in reality it was Julie's dad and his friend, but he got turned into so devoted into search that not minding stage IV cancer CA, who died of heartbreak after losing his daughter.

Wondering what could happen won't lead us anywhere. Cause what you said could absolutely happen. As well as TT threatening A's that if they'll say anything against him, he'll drag DA down with him (no matter if she was really involved or not)... or him being the one threatened.

For once, I agree with everything you just said. Also, because I don't know any of these people personally, I've been trying to understand the family dynamics/personalities. We may have multiple suspects/accomplices.

 

[wdmcmahan]

Dang it I posted the quote and it didn’t take my reply.

It was Renee’s father and his friend who watched the car that night, not Julie’s dad.

I’ve read in several places that Julie’s dad was a trucker and was not in the picture.

 

[Brightchaser47]

None? And not at all?
Car not fingerprinted, not searched, just looked at and returned to TT, immediately.
Families looked around the mall, Renee's dad searched parking for the car.
And that's about it?

To tell who licked the letter and envelope. Fingerprints... not sure if taken at the time, when they still could try. Probably not - even thou it likely wouldn't be very fruitful.
As mentioned in podcast - post box at Minot wasn't fingerprinted in the case that it wasn't the postman who delivered it. Postman not questioned about it. Basically nothing was done.

The issue with the envelope is that there is not enough DNA there left to do test... or rather there wasn't enough in 2000. With today's technology it should be possible if done by the right lab.

I'd try for the top of the line in labs, as old as this case is-- I'd really like to put this baby to bed...

 

[beubeubeu]

Dang it I posted the quote and it didn’t take my reply.

It was Renee’s father and his friend who watched the car that night, not Julie’s dad.

I’ve read in several places that Julie’s dad was a trucker and was not in the picture.

Yes, absolutely. I corrected it in oryginal post to not cause even more confusion.

 

[beubeubeu]

I'd try for the top of the line in labs, as old as this case is-- I'd really like to put this baby to bed...

VI said that families were fighting for further/additional testing but without success (so far).

 

[Ozoner]

None? And not at all?
Car not fingerprinted, not searched, just looked at and returned to TT, immediately.
Families looked around the mall, Renee's dad searched parking for the car.
And that's about it?

To tell who licked the letter and envelope. Fingerprints... not sure if taken at the time, when they still could try. Probably not - even thou it likely wouldn't be very fruitful.
As mentioned in podcast - post box at Minot wasn't fingerprinted in the case that it wasn't the postman who delivered it. Postman not questioned about it. Basically nothing was done.

The issue with the envelope is that there is not enough DNA there left to do test... or rather there wasn't enough in 2000. With today's technology it should be possible if done by the right lab.

I don't think that TT licked the envelope. I think that he used an envelope from something that came in the mail that day (suck as a Christmas card from a local business). I don't believe for one second that the letter was ever in the envelope.

 

[Brightchaser47]

VI said that families were fighting for further/additional testing but without success (so far).

Do they say/know what the roadblock is?

 

[Brightchaser47]

I don't think that TT licked the envelope. I think that he used an envelope from something that came in the mail that day (suck as a Christmas card from a local business). I don't believe for one second that the letter was ever in the envelope.

Did LE ever check the source of the paper the letter was written on (i.e. did it match a particular pad/type found/used in their home, at the shop, A house, etc.)

 

[Brightchaser47]

I would hope it's not so, but has there ever been a possibility of LE corruption in this?

 

[Brightchaser47]

Did LE ever check the source of the paper the letter was written on (i.e. did it match a particular pad/type found/used in their home, at the shop, A house, etc.)

I realize it's no help now, if they didn't, but it would've been nice to know. Thinking lots of things right now about LE...

 

[beubeubeu]

I don't think that TT licked the envelope. I think that he used an envelope from something that came in the mail that day (suck as a Christmas card from a local business). I don't believe for one second that the letter was ever in the envelope.

I think... or I'd hope that he was ruled out with same testing that ruled out the possibility that any of the girls licked the stamp. It's probably false hope, but what else we have.

It doesn't have to be hi dna, but it's still somebody's DNA. And if checked through databases it could say that oh, it looks like mother of this person licked it. Who's that? Oh, she was friend's with late TT's parents. Or a postal worker in SS. Or she worked in one of the offices locates in Arlington, where A's workshop had second location.

I'm not sure if I understood correctly what Renee's dad told Nancy. That it was possible to just grab bunch of pre-stamped envelopes from business and mail your own stuff this way?
But still, if so - grabbing a stamped envelope is one thing, but getting one that is stamped 24th and handing it to the LE on 24th is another.

There are at least two versions of events here.
One - that DA got the envelope right away and delivered it to the officer awaiting her in A's home on the 24th.
And another - that it was TT who showed up at the police station and delivered it after Christmas.
With second scenario not much of an issue with stealing such envelope somewhere, possibly not even straight from any business but maybe from someone who grabbed them for himself to send some free mail - or to use one of the Christmas card's envelopes that got delivered to him on 26th or late 24th.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Some time ago on this forum, I recall a discussion about Luminol. Does that ring any bells for anyone here?

 

[beubeubeu]

Do they say/know what the roadblock is?

Some form of "no reason for additional testing" & not enough DNA to test.
But possibly they're doing something, just keeping it close to the chest.

Did LE ever check the source of the paper the letter was written on (i.e. did it match a particular pad/type found/used in their home, at the shop, A house, etc.)

Nope. At least no that anyone is aware of. I was wondering about it last year when at least one VI was sort of regular here, but they didn't knew much about LE's actions.

I would hope it's not so, but has there ever been a possibility of LE corruption in this?

Possibility yes, probability no. The only thing stoods out here is the fact that Julie was so young and that there were three of them disappearing at the same time and before Christmas. Not saying they were treating every case like this one, but it surely doesn't look like this stoods out from their average approach.

Also OH MY GOD, I finally noticed what people mean about the letter not fitting the envelope.

But first:

This is not written in pencil. This is black ink from a pen. Why it's claimed to be in pencil?

Also folding lines are here:

So it looks like it's A4 page, folded three times... to fit the envelope I guess, cause the envelope

is more narrow than page folded in two (A4, folded -> A5) - envelope is longer but A5 is wider than the envelope.

Folded once again, into A6 it'd certainly fit the envelope but since nobody's folding their letters so many times that's probably what caused people to think that it may not fit.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Some form of "no reason for additional testing" & not enough DNA to test.
But possibly they're doing something, just keeping it close to the chest.

Nope. At least no that anyone is aware of. I was wondering about it last year when at least one VI was sort of regular here, but they didn't knew much about LE's actions.

Possibility yes, probability no. The only thing stoods out here is the fact that Julie was so young and that there were three of them disappearing at the same time and before Christmas. Not saying they were treating every case like this one, but it surely doesn't look like this stoods out from their average approach.

Also OH MY GOD, I finally noticed what people mean about the letter not fitting the envelope.

But first:
View attachment 398611
This is not written in pencil. This is black ink from a pen. Why it's claimed to be in pencil?

Also folding lines are here:
View attachment 398612
So it looks like it's A4 page, folded three times... to fit the envelope I guess, cause the envelope
View attachment 398615
is more narrow than page folded in two (A4, folded -> A5) - envelope is longer but A5 is wider than the envelope.
View attachment 398616
Folded once again, into A6 it'd certainly fit the envelope but since nobody's folding their letters so many times that's probably what caused people to think that it may not fit.

Maybe LE  finally has something to go on, and doesn't want to blow it (let's hope that's it). BTW, I think the general understanding is the letter is in pen, the envelope in pencil- that's how I've been hearing it put.