TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #6

[rainwaterstill]

Some time ago on this forum, I recall a discussion about Luminol. Does that ring any bells for anyone here?

Yes. I believe it was somewhere in threads 3 or 4,IIRC. A poster (sorry don't remember who) had posted their thoughts that IF police had sprayed Luminol in " the Minot house, it would have lit up like a Christmas tree." They didn't spray.

Long time lurker on the thread.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Yes. I believe it was somewhere in threads 3 or 4,IIRC. A poster (sorry don't remember who) had posted their thoughts that IF police had sprayed Luminol in " the Minot house, it would have lit up like a Christmas tree." They didn't spray.

Long time lurker on the thread.

Thanks for sharing that (and for still lurking).

 

[Jfu72]

Has anyone suggested Mohave Co. Jane Doe 1975? The timeframe is about right. Jane Doe had a ring that could possibly be similar to Rachels. I wish there was a better picture of Rachel’s wedding ring.

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

By bringing people, information, forensic science and technology together, NamUs helps resolve cases.

www.namus.gov

 

[jetsfanjohn]

Has anyone suggested Mohave Co. Jane Doe 1975? The timeframe is about right. Jane Doe had a ring that could possibly be similar to Rachels. I wish there was a better picture of Rachel’s wedding ring.

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

By bringing people, information, forensic science and technology together, NamUs helps resolve cases.

www.namus.gov

I think Rachel may have been taller than the 5"3' mentioned as Mohave Co. Jane Doe on Namus ?

I have a feeling that if the bodies are discovered they will be found together. In fact I think it is possible that the three skeletons found in Alvin in 1976 could be the missing girls. If i have my facts correct, a lot of the details fit, including the estimated time they had been buried (18 months approx).

I would like to see those bones tested again with modern technology.

 

[JohnGalt78]

IMO, In the past and even still today there have been people who try to muddy the waters to keep the truth clouded with false speculation. I agree with most of the long time posters here on the fate of the girls. IMO, RT was in an unhappy relationship and CJG might have been giving her attention. TT got jealous and in a moment of rage killed her then had to get rid of the other two. FA made up false stories to protect her only surviving daughter and here we are. I believe they were disposed of at the Arlington location and will never be found. I believe when DA and TT were asked where the envelope for the letter was they went back to the house and found an envelope that a Christmas card had come to the house in. I do not think that letter was ever in that envelope. I think the only way the truth will ever out is if FA confesses. TT and RA will take the truth to their graves.

 

[Jfu72]

I think Rachel may have been taller than the 5"3' mentioned as Mohave Co. Jane Doe on Namus ?

I have a feeling that if the bodies are discovered they will be found together. In fact I think it is possible that the three skeletons found in Alvin in 1976 could be the missing girls. If i have my facts correct, a lot of the details fit, including the estimated time they had been buried (18 months approx).

I would like to see those bones tested again with modern technology.

Yes, I've often wondered if remains found long ago could have been incorrectly indentified with the technology they had at the time. It also seems like Arizona was a popular dumping ground for killers in the in the 70s 80s 90s, probably even today... If you search in Namus for UPs in AZ, there are over 2000. Most are probably illegals but over 200 are women dating back to the 50s. Lots of remote desert area out there. Even if they were dumped close to one another, they might not be found at the same time. It's probably not her though, just trying to think outside the box.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I think Rachel may have been taller than the 5"3' mentioned as Mohave Co. Jane Doe on Namus ?

I have a feeling that if the bodies are discovered they will be found together. In fact I think it is possible that the three skeletons found in Alvin in 1976 could be the missing girls. If i have my facts correct, a lot of the details fit, including the estimated time they had been buried (18 months approx).

I would like to see those bones tested again with modern technology.

They should definitely be tested again.

Yes, I've often wondered if remains found long ago could have been incorrectly indentified with the technology they had at the time. It also seems like Arizona was a popular dumping growund for killers in the in the 70s 80s 90s, probably even today... If you search in Namus for UPs in AZ, there are over 2000. Most are probably illegals but over 200 are women dating back to the 50s. Lots of remote desert area out there. Even if they were dumped close to one another, they might not be found at the same time. It's probably not her though, just trying to think outside the box.

Those who believe bodies will never be found may be right about that, but it doesn't hurt to eliminate the possibilities.

 

[beubeubeu]

Is that usual shape of an envelope used in early 70's Texas?
Cause that seem pretty damn inconvenient for... pretty much anyone?
I used to collect postcards. And like 90% of them were either size A5 or like 0,5 inch wider and longer.
Writing letters - same thing, I remember just taking A4 sheet of paper, writing on it, folding it in two and it fit perfectly.
Those long, but not very wide envelopes in that shape meant that some sort of official mail is inside - so like a bill, or invitation, official greeting.
I guess that any decent stamp collector from the area would be able to make it clear (I recall that in the past they made it clear that there is nothing usual about the post stamp and that it looks exactly like on the other pieces of mail stamped at SS on 24th).
It's just that I can't imagine myself to be so thoughtful to (not having an envelope yet, just hoping to get one later or to not ever be asked about it) fold that letter so many times.
Also not once in my life I received Christmas/Easter/Birthday card addressed in pencil. Not me, not anyone in my immediate family - and we likely kept majority (if not all of them received in last 50 years) of them.
Same with letters. It's been quite a while since I wrote or got one, so only today I got the idea to check. I know that it proofs or indicates nothing, but dozens of letters and nobody used pencil.
I also to this day forgot that those things exist - no idea how they're called, but grandpa always had a few in garage and gave some to me cause I found them "magical". Meaning that they looked like regular pencil, but wetted (usually with use of suliva) they were turning into permanent purpleish blue ink, very useful while working with wood.
I just saw one of them and wonder if testing would include checking what kind of pencil was used?

 

[Brightchaser47]

Was TT living with his parents when they died, and was that the same house on Minot that he inherited and lived in with Rachel and DA? I'm a bit confused about that.

 

[beubeubeu]

Was TT living with his parents when they died, and was that the same house on Minot that he inherited and lived in with Rachel and DA? I'm a bit confused about that.

Yes and yes.

 

[Ozoner]

Was TT living with his parents when they died, and was that the same house on Minot that he inherited and lived in with Rachel and DA? I'm a bit confused about that.

Yes and yes.

Indeed. I find it intriguing that the adoptive parents of someone who is a suspect in a triple murder both died young. I wonder whether autopsies were performed on the parents.

 

[beubeubeu]

Indeed. I find it intriguing that the adoptive parents of someone who is a suspect in a triple murder both died young. I wonder whether autopsies were performed on the parents.

I think that it was, and that both died from same... lung infection? Just six months apart. Mother in hospital, father at home (links or even screens of their death certificates are in this thread I think).

I can't stop thinking about it, and it just doesn't make sense to me.
I mean, I recall maybe one case where it kinda went this way: husband was kinda violent, at the time overworked, sleep deprived, started fight with the wife, attacked her, injured her, she fought back, injured him, he murdered her, their daughter woke up and saw that, so he murdered her too, and then went to the other daughter's room and murdered her as well, then attempted to stage home invasion.

It kinda makes sense to me to consider (even pretty strongly consider) him a prime suspect.
But not so much with those blurry guesses that maybe Rachel met some guy on that day, maybe TT accidentally caught them/learned about their meeting somehow, then went furious, murdered her and got rid of the whitnesses.
I was much more open to this possibility while assumming that meeting with friends at SS was:
- planned to happen closer to 2-3pm
- one of those "okay, so we will be there then, maybe we can meet"
But if that was supposed to happen at noon, and they were absolutely expected to show up and they didn't. That's such a tight timeframe.
I don't understand. Cause okay, it couldn't be pre-planned to kidnap all three of them for anyone close to them, cause nobody could predict that those girls will end up together, all three.
Maybe Julie was just in wrong place, wrong time. And the targeted victims were:
a) Rachel, Debra and Renee,
b) Rachel and Renee,
c) Rachel, Renee and Terry,
d) Rachel and whoever will be with her at the time
(depending on how detailed Rachel's plans were for that day)
Isn't this whole thing kinda too smooth to be spur-of-a-moment cover up kinda? Even considering how helpful LE's attitude was towards the perp.
Maybe it wasn't spontaneous at all but to some degree pre-planned and exectued despite of Julie's presence or somebody's absence since main target was Rachel.
Why exactly we're ruling out monetary gain? No insurance on her, yes. No inheritance either. But I'd guess also no pre-marital agreement, right? They were married, right? What about divorce? In case of a divorce - would Rachel get out of this marriage with nothing or...?

 

[Brightchaser47]

Indeed. I find it intriguing that the adoptive parents of someone who is a suspect in a triple murder both died young. I wonder whether autopsies were performed on the parents.

I find it interesting they were both stricken in that way (and the timing)and TT wasn't, when they lived in the same house, but it could be coincidence..
I don't know how close the relationship was between TT and his adoptive parents. But if it isn't (coincidental), it helps to establish a possible history/pattern of behavior and mentality.
Otherwise, we're being asked to believe an isolated incident of jealous rage led to a triple homicide/cover-up. That's asking a lot, if there's no history or pattern, IMO.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

Otherwise, we're being asked to believe an isolated incident of jealous rage led to a triple homicide/cover-up. That's asking a lot, if there's no history or pattern, IMO.

It is asking a lot if all three girls were attacked at once.

However, if it is a scenario where Rachel is the target and the perp. thinks she is alone and acts on it...and then realises that she was not alone after the fact e.g the scenario presented earlier in this thread (by Ozoner, I think) where Rachel returns to the house to drop off her purchases from the shopping trip while the other two wait for her in the car. Then the triple homicide becomes more plausible, IMO, particularly if there was an accomplice involved.

This is one of the reasons why I don't think they were confronted by the perp. at the Mall. I think in that scenario the perp. would demand Rachel get in the car alone and tell the other two to make their own way home. JMO.

 

[beubeubeu]

But it happened certainly after 11am. On the day when it was known before that Rachel has a plan to go visit the mall with company of - to the very least - Renee. How could the perp so close to her, that he was actually the one leaving her car that he usually used to go to and back from work - expect her to be alone at the time?
VI said that it was absolutely, 100% pre-planned - that they're going to the mall together, on that day, at that time. Rachel AND Renee - AND highely likely someone else too (like possibly Debra, Terry or even Rachel's mom).
Julie, the idea of lunch at the mall, Terry going to visit his sick friend - those were things impossible or highely unlikely to predict, but not the fact that Rachel won't be alone or that Rachel won't be in company of Renee at the time of the day.
It's still possible to theorise that maybe VI was wrong, and maybe it was somehow completely spontaneous and unpredicted trip, but how to explain the fact that TT left Rachel their car on that day? Or that maybe Rachel was supposed to go alone... but then - what about the gift from Renee's Grandma?
Why Renee's Grandma was buying a gift for Shawn? Cause of Rachel or some other way? Wasn't it pre-planned that she will deliver it through Renee on that day? Cause it surely appear like it did. Otherwise why would Renee take the gift with her then if for example, the Grandma (who was very close to Renee) had a plan to visit house on Minot before Christmas to deliver the gift?

 

[jetsfanjohn]

But it happened certainly after 11am. On the day when it was known before that Rachel has a plan to go visit the mall with company of - to the very least - Renee. How could the perp so close to her, that he was actually the one leaving her car that he usually used to go to and back from work - expect her to be alone at the time?
VI said that it was absolutely, 100% pre-planned - that they're going to the mall together, on that day, at that time. Rachel AND Renee - AND highely likely someone else too (like possibly Debra, Terry or even Rachel's mom).
Julie, the idea of lunch at the mall, Terry going to visit his sick friend - those were things impossible or highely unlikely to predict, but not the fact that Rachel won't be alone or that Rachel won't be in company of Renee at the time of the day.
It's still possible to theorise that maybe VI was wrong, and maybe it was somehow completely spontaneous and unpredicted trip, but how to explain the fact that TT left Rachel their car on that day? Or that maybe Rachel was supposed to go alone... but then - what about the gift from Renee's Grandma?
Why Renee's Grandma was buying a gift for Shawn? Cause of Rachel or some other way? Wasn't it pre-planned that she will deliver it through Renee on that day? Cause it surely appear like it did. Otherwise why would Renee take the gift with her then if for example, the Grandma (who was very close to Renee) had a plan to visit house on Minot before Christmas to deliver the gift?

The trip was 100% pre planned.

Lets say Rachel returns to the house some time around 12.30pm - 1.00pm to drop off her purchases from Army/Navy store (and possibly purchases from the Mall too) maybe the perp. thinks Rachel has already left her shopping friends home at this stage and she is alone...but in fact they are waiting for her to come back out are stills in the car.

As I mentioned above, I did not come up with the 'girls waiting in the car' part of this theory, but it does make sense to me.

 

[Sneaker33]

I think Rachel may have been taller than the 5"3' mentioned as Mohave Co. Jane Doe on Namus ?

I have a feeling that if the bodies are discovered they will be found together. In fact I think it is possible that the three skeletons found in Alvin in 1976 could be the missing girls. If i have my facts correct, a lot of the details fit, including the estimated time they had been buried (18 months approx).

I would like to see those bones tested again with modern technology.

Have they not identified these skeletal remains but ruled out the girls?

 

[Sneaker33]

But it happened certainly after 11am. On the day when it was known before that Rachel has a plan to go visit the mall with company of - to the very least - Renee. How could the perp so close to her, that he was actually the one leaving her car that he usually used to go to and back from work - expect her to be alone at the time?
VI said that it was absolutely, 100% pre-planned - that they're going to the mall together, on that day, at that time. Rachel AND Renee - AND highely likely someone else too (like possibly Debra, Terry or even Rachel's mom).
Julie, the idea of lunch at the mall, Terry going to visit his sick friend - those were things impossible or highely unlikely to predict, but not the fact that Rachel won't be alone or that Rachel won't be in company of Renee at the time of the day.
It's still possible to theorise that maybe VI was wrong, and maybe it was somehow completely spontaneous and unpredicted trip, but how to explain the fact that TT left Rachel their car on that day? Or that maybe Rachel was supposed to go alone... but then - what about the gift from Renee's Grandma?
Why Renee's Grandma was buying a gift for Shawn? Cause of Rachel or some other way? Wasn't it pre-planned that she will deliver it through Renee on that day? Cause it surely appear like it did. Otherwise why would Renee take the gift with her then if for example, the Grandma (who was very close to Renee) had a plan to visit house on Minot before Christmas to deliver the gift?

I believe the GM may have known the Arnold's or at least knew Renee's parents went camping with the Rachel's parents. She probably met little Shawn and decided to give him something for Christmas. Just a nice gesture.

 

[beubeubeu]

10:30-10:45 they left Renee's grandma's & Julie's home area and as far as other's understood they promised to be at the mall at noon to join Renee&Julie's friends on a lunch.
Malls now are not nearly as busy now as they were in '70s. Free day at school, everyone shopping before Christmas, so huge crowd there, no mobile phones, no other ways of communication, and this was a big mall, they had maybe 20-30 mins to have reasonable hope to be able to find each other.

The distance between Julie's home and Army Navy it's about 15 mins drive.
Sighting at that store places at least two of the girls at that store around 11am.
This adds up and looks like they went straight there.

Another 10-15 mins there to get in, pick up the layway and get back to the car. Likely also for Renee to jump into her new pants and put the old pair and the new pair in the trunk (likely no hurry), no other purchases found.
If that was a murder in frantic rage and girls actually made it to the mall, bought something and the attack actually happened sometime later, with perp removing their mall purchases from the car - how would he know that that brand new pair of jeans wasn't bought at the mall? And why even bother with removing anything if them being at the mall is actually what the perp seems to be implying? It's probably yet another rabbithole.
So it's 11:10-11:15am and girls are leaving Army Navy. They have about an hour to get to the mall, find a spot to park, get inside and on scheduled meeting.
Unknown if they considered that's probably the busiest day of the year but that's another 20 mins drive. And counting reasonably they didn't have that much time left, cause probably another 10 mins to get to the right place at the mall.
Did they have watches? There is no mention or any description of any watch that I'm aware of. I guess even if they didn't have one (which I'd find pretty unusual) they could somewhat rely on the radio host telling them time... maybe?

With that simple and possibly overly optimistic math (cause assumming that there was no traffic happening in Fort Worth so they weren't taking it into consideration), also having taking care of Julie, who could be slowing them down a bit...
Would be nice to know what kind of attitude they had towards the clocks. Of course, we don't know. We know that parents were immediately alarmed as they haven't showed up back from the mall at the expected time, but it's still possible that they were always/usually on time as their parents told him so, but were more flexible if it was just the lunch with friends - maybe then coming a bit late wasn't that big of a deal. If they were pretty punctual, they were already on pretty right schedule. If they weren't... still not much more time left.
They could consider going to Rachel's for a moment, but even if so, then only briefly:
11:10-11:15 leaving Army Navy
11:20-25 arriving at Minot Av.
+ another 20 mins to get to the SS, find a spot to leave the car and get in to arrive for the meeting.
That would leave about 15-20 mins to do something there.

No idea if it's helping anyone, but since I was trying to imagine it properly and went for a map again. I'm sharing.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Have they not identified these skeletal remains but ruled out the girls?

I think it's Alvord, and back in Thread #5,  sloane7777 posted that Swaim had had those remains (Alvord, TX) checked against x-rays/dental records of the trio, and they were ruled out. I always thought dental records were pretty conclusive, but I could be wrong.