TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #6

[beubeubeu]

Thanks for answering that. Wasn't CJG an acquaintance of TT's? What I don't get is, if CJG wanted to date Renee, why was he messing around with Rachel? Also, when there's mention of a social gathering that Rachel attends, TT seems to be absent (except for maybe the bowling alley). If I'm wrong about that, someone correct me.

No, he was not an acquaintance of TT. He was Renee's boyfriend best friend. He spoke very highely of him and claimed that he never suspected that there was ever anything to the stories about him having anything to do with the disappearance. He didn't knew Rachel that well (the bf) but said that he has no knowledge of anything going on between him and any of the girls or being anywhere near them on that day.
He could not know that, cause he was neither with him or with the girls past 11am on that day so I guess it could theoretically happen behind his back, but...

There are also claims that CJG was at/near the Moseley's house on that day mentioned here and there, but they did not come from anyone who was there and lived to the 24th.

 

[Brightchaser47]

No, he was not an acquaintance of TT. He was Renee's boyfriend best friend. He spoke very highely of him and claimed that he never suspected that there was ever anything to the stories about him having anything to do with the disappearance. He didn't knew Rachel that well (the bf) but said that he has no knowledge of anything going on between him and any of the girls or being anywhere near them on that day.
He could not know that, cause he was neither with him or with the girls past 11am on that day so I guess it could theoretically happen behind his back, but...

There are also claims that CJG was at/near the Moseley's house on that day mentioned here and there, but they did not come from anyone who was there and lived to the 24th.

But wasn't it mentioned in one of the podcasts that CJG changed his story/was inconsistent in what he told LE about his actions/whereabouts that day? Even if he were innocent and scared, the inconsistency looks bad.
And, as you said, TM wasn't there. If TM  is right, then there was no "sighting" of Rachel and CJG on the 23rd, at the mall, to provoke TT to jealous rage. That kills that scenario.
I'm not sure I believe the bit about TM not knowing Rachel very well. I'd think he'd be at least acquainted with any close friends of the girl he's promising.
.

 

[beubeubeu]

To be fair, I don't really get what the TW deal was if that's true that he snitched on Rachel "acting inappropriate while being married".
Apart from that he sounds like a pretty decent guy, very devoted to his family and very protective. He took action, was thinking fast, did so many right things with the search.
But this is kinda... in multiple interviews he embraced that protectiveness, mentioned how he cared to scare away all the bad boys that could get near his daughter.
Yet he was friend with CA? Went to campings with shady domestic abuser? VI pointed out that Arnold's kids weren't even allowed to go out and play with other kids, that everybody kinda knew that there is something wrong in that home.
Then there is TT, described as disturbed, bad vibe, bad guy - far from a cool way of being such. 21year old, jobless, already divorced father of 1, army reject, relying only on his parents money, and even his own parents didn't have a trust in his reason and ability to act as an adult (thus the trustfund and inheritance under condition of holding a job for few years).
I believe that one of the VI, who described herself as knowing him from high school said that she didn't knew him that well, but what she knew was that her father would "kill her" if he would learn that she dates TT.
So okay, TW could have no idea what's going on in A's home, but also no idea about TT? No clue that oh, here is a guy who marries 16yo girl, less than a year after his father's death, weeks after his divorce, doing some shady businesses with Cotton... and he not only doesn't see any issue with Renee being around this guy by proxy, but after whitnessing Rachel, allegedly sitting on CJG's lap (or some other guy, cause I'm not even sure how this story goes), instead of maybe taking her on the side and having stern talk with her (something to the accord of "listen young lady, you're married woman now, you should not act this way, I hope that's the last time") he snitches on her to the Creepy McCreep or to CA? Yet isn't seeing Rachel as bad influence on Renee? Doesn't have another stern talk with TM to keep his friend far away from Renee?

And I'm not criticising TW. I'm expressing my disbelief in the story. Unless it came directly from him. Well, even if this story came directly from him (did it?) I still don't buy it. He didn't sounded like a guy that could be completely oblivious to what was happening around him, so either it IMO didn't happen at all, happened somehow but not the way it was discussed, or even in his mind it wasn't even close to being serious.

 

[beubeubeu]

But wasn't it mentioned in one of the podcasts that CJG changed his story/was inconsistent in what he told LE about his actions/whereabouts that day? Even if he were innocent and scared, the inconsistency looks bad.
And, as you said, TM wasn't there. If TM  is right, then there was no "sighting" of Rachel and CJG on the 23rd, at the mall, to provoke TT to jealous rage. That kills that scenario.
I'm not sure I believe the bit about TM not knowing Rachel very well. I'd think he'd be at least acquainted with any close friends of the girl he's promising.
.

Many things were mentioned and it's hard to tell if there is something to it or not.
It is getting said and repeated over and over somehow that CJG was seen at the mall with the girls... yet in the same time the only somewhat detailed claim of girls from the mall tells about record store clerk, who allegedly knew Renee and allegedly spoke to her briefly on that day, seeing or maybe noticing Rachel and Julie in the distance, possiblly being in company of some guy.
Is there even actual, consistent claim of a sighting that mention CJG at the Mall? Or just claims that he was/could be seen with them then?

 

[Brightchaser47]

For me the only logical scenario here is that at this point he wanted to get far away from any relevant whitnesses (like the adults from A's family - cause sounds like all of them had pretty strong personalities: so they could interfere for the Rachel's sake, or don't care about the Rachel that much but think less of him whitnessing his wife disobeying him) to deal with her.
To this point the vision of "dealing with her" would include yelling, some emotional blackmail, maybe some insuts, minor to mild physical assault. With that it wouldn't matter if Renee and Julie knew about it, heard about it or even saw it - it'd not give him any trouble with "the adults" while possibly even working in his advantage, as using their presence to humiliate Rachel in front of them even more than "in private".
His plans would go straight to sewer if she wasn't having that and fought back, having more confidence than ever cause in her mind at least Renee surely mattered as a whitness of his behaviour.

I may be wrong but I don't believe in Debra's involvement - cause it doesn't make sense for me.
Her claim about their engagement not being serious sounds ridiculous... at least until you see the marriage record on this guy. So many marriages don't imply that person takes marriage seriously, not to mention some brief engagement. And the speed! Oh my God...
Just my point of view, but instead of her, being crazy in love with him (despite of - judging by those brief descriptions here and there - having much hotter and way more interesting guys than him) and being blindly loyal to him, over her sister...
I see him, likely wanting to appear as better man that he really was in front of her and growing frustration over having to act and pretend at home as well.

This is what I know, what I whitnessed, what saw many times in life (in toxic relationships that luckily didn't end up with murder). So this is what I see here.

It's possible DA wasn't directly involved, but I'm not convinced. Even if she wasn't, I just can't see TT committing all this by himself. There has to be an accomplice.

 

[Brightchaser47]

To be fair, I don't really get what the TW deal was if that's true that he snitched on Rachel "acting inappropriate while being married".
Apart from that he sounds like a pretty decent guy, very devoted to his family and very protective. He took action, was thinking fast, did so many right things with the search.
But this is kinda... in multiple interviews he embraced that protectiveness, mentioned how he cared to scare away all the bad boys that could get near his daughter.
Yet he was friend with CA? Went to campings with shady domestic abuser? VI pointed out that Arnold's kids weren't even allowed to go out and play with other kids, that everybody kinda knew that there is something wrong in that home.
Then there is TT, described as disturbed, bad vibe, bad guy - far from a cool way of being such. 21year old, jobless, already divorced father of 1, army reject, relying only on his parents money, and even his own parents didn't have a trust in his reason and ability to act as an adult (thus the trustfund and inheritance under condition of holding a job for few years).
I believe that one of the VI, who described herself as knowing him from high school said that she didn't knew him that well, but what she knew was that her father would "kill her" if he would learn that she dates TT.
So okay, TW could have no idea what's going on in A's home, but also no idea about TT? No clue that oh, here is a guy who marries 16yo girl, less than a year after his father's death, weeks after his divorce, doing some shady businesses with Cotton... and he not only doesn't see any issue with Renee being around this guy by proxy, but after whitnessing Rachel, allegedly sitting on CJG's lap (or some other guy, cause I'm not even sure how this story goes), instead of maybe taking her on the side and having stern talk with her (something to the accord of "listen young lady, you're married woman now, you should not act this way, I hope that's the last time") he snitches on her to the Creepy McCreep or to CA? Yet isn't seeing Rachel as bad influence on Renee? Doesn't have another stern talk with TM to keep his friend far away from Renee?

And I'm not criticising TW. I'm expressing my disbelief in the story. Unless it came directly from him. Well, even if this story came directly from him (did it?) I still don't buy it. He didn't sounded like a guy that could be completely oblivious to what was happening around him, so either it IMO didn't happen at all, happened somehow but not the way it was discussed, or even in his mind it wasn't even close to being serious.

I thought it was CA's neighbor, not CA, that was good friends with RW.

 

[Ozoner]

It's possible DA wasn't directly involved, but I'm not convinced. Even if she wasn't, I just can't see TT committing all this by himself. There has to be an accomplice.

TT could have killed the girls and disposed of the bodies himself, but DA placed herself at the house on Minot during the period of time when the murders would have occurred(late morning/early afternoon).

It also seems likely that TT would have needed an accomplice to stage the car in the Sears upper lot.

 

[beubeubeu]

I thought it was CA's neighbor, not CA, that was good friends with RW.

And this is why discussion is so much better than trying to figure out stuff alone. Of course no way of telling for sure but:
1. What i tried to digest don't sit together so well and overall doesn't make that much sense.
2. What you're saying is actually making perfect sense.
So most likely Renee and Rachel were close but their parents not so much. That actually explains so much - not only makes Renee's dad's actions look consistent but also makes sense how and how Wilson's kept ending up not being informed about some things right away. Close friends would be most likely right there with them, included, allowed - while neighbors could absolutely ended up kinda like they did, pushed into the background despite of fighting hard in search for the girls, while one family completely took the stage as far as media and public was concerned.
Thank you.

 

[Brightchaser47]

CJG has been in the spotlight a lot in this case. Does anyone know if there was anyone else in Rachel's or TT's life who could've been a potential rival for TT? Old boyfriend or crush, perhaps?

 

[beubeubeu]

It's possible DA wasn't directly involved, but I'm not convinced. Even if she wasn't, I just can't see TT committing all this by himself. There has to be an accomplice.

Partially it's based on my own logic and repeated attempts to answer one and the same question: does it make sense for me?
That may be not very compelling since obviously, other people may be driven with different logic or they may be some factors unknown to me that would make things make sense even for me (if I was aware of them).

The rest is, probability and attempt to rely on what it seems to be happening in other, somewhat similar cases (could be faulible).
No shortage of examples where multiple victims were attacked, controlled and murdered by single offenders. It appeared like there is no way that one person could do that - yet they did that, with no criminal masterplans.
I have no idea if statistically its actually more common to have single offender taking multiple victims vs. multiple offenders, but there is definitely a tendention for
a) accomplices ending up dead by the hand of main perp,
b) accomplices turning on each other as soon as important dynamic between them changes (in the matter of years, decade or two, not half of a century).
Both of which didn't happen here: and they went through a lot, not together.

 

[beubeubeu]

TT could have killed the girls and disposed of the bodies himself, but DA placed herself at the house on Minot during the period of time when the murders would have occurred(late morning/early afternoon).

It also seems likely that TT would have needed an accomplice to stage the car in the Sears upper lot.

DA placed herself there but only TT's ex maybe placed the Oldsmobile there, maybe in the right timeframe.
How TT ended up there at that time of day?
Hasn't left for work yet? Came back in different car? Got a lift back home from someone?

 

[jetsfanjohn]

DA placed herself there but only TT's ex maybe placed the Oldsmobile there, maybe in the right timeframe.
How TT ended up there at that time of day?
Hasn't left for work yet? Came back in different car? Got a lift back home from someone?

My guess is that he had gone to work. When he heard certain news via a phone call he either did one of two things :-

1. Drove to Minot Ave or
2. Drove to the Mall

In theory driving to the Mall might make more sense and would tie in with what one or two witnesses claimed to have seen there (if they are to believed).

However, I think he drove to Minot, but I can't get the sequence of events right in my head. Was he there before the girls arrived or did he arrive later ? Who else was in the property at that time ? I think it is safe to assume DA was, not sure about anyone else.

 

[T rex]

CJG has been in the spotlight a lot in this case. Does anyone know if there was anyone else in Rachel's or TT's life who could've been a potential rival for TT? Old boyfriend or crush, perhaps?

I know it is widely accepted here that CJG is a certain individual and that may be the case but do we know for sure that they are one and the same?
Did this person ever admt that he's the person in question? Did he ever admit he was at the mall that day? Did he even confirm that he ever owned a jacket with California across the back?
I'm just trying to get a handle on what we really know as fact. If anyone can verify any of this with a source and a link please do so.

 

[beubeubeu]

Here is a riddle.

People present at the Renee's grandma's house/Moseleys:
- Rachel (gone)
- Renee (gone)
- Julie (gone)
- TM (claimed that he went to visit sick friend)
- JM (still a child then, doesn't have any clear memories and wasn't questioned about her memories for years)
- JM's best friend (remembers being offered to go to the mall but declined, decided to finish some chores and head to SS bit later with JM, getting lift from friend's grandma)

+ highely likely Renee's grandma was somewhere around
+ maybe Julie's mom was able to hear something

Yet there is a story about CJG being there, speaking with the girls, going with them or parting ways and all that. Then who was the one to tell that story?

 

[beubeubeu]

I know it is widely accepted here that CJG is a certain individual and that may be the case but do we know for sure that they are one and the same?
Did this person ever admt that he's the person in question? Did he ever admit he was at the mall that day? Did he even confirm that he ever owned a jacket with California across the back?
I'm just trying to get a handle on what we really know as fact. If anyone can verify any of this with a source and a link please do so.

We know very little for sure, and not much about CJG or/and VB is known for sure.
Good thinking thou: how could we know that CJG allegedly seen by someone in the mall was VB - did they knew VB? Recognised him later? Were shown a picture of him? What made them same person and was such sighting truly reported?

I'm at lost if any info about CJG/VB that is circulating and included in so many theories came from anything apart of thatf digitally typed note created by Dan James who keeps refferring to Rachel "Rachael"?
Cause that note is really, like one bomb after another.

DJ claims that VB changed his story multiple times.
That he was surprised that LE didn't questioned him much, yet questioned him multiple times.
Yet he claimed that LE went as far as creating a ROADBLOCK next to his house on the 24th just to question him for few minutes and leave.
He describes the version of the story in which "Rachael" called him and invited to join her at the mall, so he went to Renee's house to meet her, but declined cause girls acted rude and crude (?!), so he stayed with TM, drinking for few hours (making TW's claim about visiting friend at hospital false), then went to work and after he finished his shift got a ride from some other girl.
Roadblock allegedly happened right after he finished his shift at work.
Oh and also he had a relationship with Rachel and Renee wanted to have relationship with him.

And the provider of the above is the guy who managed to convince A's family, that "Rachael" is still alive, visiting FW regularly, yet forced to stay away from them, and he surely found some whitnesses coming, up to 2000's cause human trafficking rings and something.

In another versions VB met with the girls at the Mall, went with girls to the mall.
Oh, and DJ also had similar note or an email, allegedly sent to him by TT's ex wife, who claimed in there that she not only saw the Oldsmobile at the Minot Ave. home, but actually went there to pick up her son, met the girls just as they were getting ready to leave with that child, but went back home to chat with her for some time and then she left about noon.
And more, much more.

Not sure what the guy's deal was. Simple trolling? Advanced trolling? Or maybe trying to feed people this weird scenarios to mud the water? Check if something will bite the hook?
Whatever it was, didn't seem like his goal was to provide community with the information. Some of this stuff could be accurate, all can be completely made up as well.

I'm under impression that I saw CJG mentioned in one of the articles from 70's or 80's, but it's not in any of those I have saved, so I can't tell for sure.

 

[beubeubeu]

I found interesting thing that I haven't spotted before while scrolling the screenshots... and lost it again.
But one of those press notes mentiones that car was found in the employees parking lot.
Another say "east" so my earlier guess may be accurate.

Here is the few seconds long video, pretty blurry but it gives some idea of the surroundings.
New Efforts to Find Three Girls Who Vanished in 1974

 

[Brightchaser47]

So, is DJ the main source of the idea that TT was responsible for the girls' disappearance? Or did someone else (family or LE) immediately suspect TT, and DJ set out to prove/disprove that?
I'm a bit confused about that.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I found interesting thing that I haven't spotted before while scrolling the screenshots... and lost it again.
But one of those press notes mentiones that car was found in the employees parking lot.
Another say "east" so my earlier guess may be accurate.

Here is the few seconds long video, pretty blurry but it gives some idea of the surroundings.
New Efforts to Find Three Girls Who Vanished in 1974

RW gave a pretty decent description of where he and his buddy were positioned, when they staked out the car, on either Gone Cold or Nancy Grace podcast. That may help with locations/layout.
On an earlier thread, there were efforts to establish exact location of the car-- photos of the parking area, etc.
. If it's true that the car was parked in the employees' lot, that would be interesting.

 

[Ozoner]

So, is DJ the main source of the idea that TT was responsible for the girls' disappearance? Or did someone else (family or LE) immediately suspect TT, and DJ set out to prove/disprove that?
I'm a bit confused about that.

Based on everything I've read, it's reasonable to conclude that TT was suspected long before DJ entered the picture.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Based on everything I've read, it's reasonable to conclude that TT was suspected long before DJ entered the picture.

Thank you. I've read in numerous places that DJ "usually represented defendants". How does a PI "represent a defendant"?