TX - 'Lori Ruff', Longview, WhtFem UP9863, *General Discussion and Theories* #5

[sunnynz]

Have you seen the post (or even posted the post!) on the FB page from a couple of hours ago? The one about following FB pages starting with B Ruff and then the Kennedy's? I've seen a few photos that have made me wonder whether there could be a bio connection.

Could the Ruff's already know who Lori was?

I just don't believe that the Ruffs would let the sheriff's office and Namus continue to dedicate man hours to attempting to make matches if they knew it was all a big waste of time because they already knew FLEK's identity. That would be so irresponsible surely?

 

[EmiLove832]

I did a bunch of digging, I don't think they look anything alike. I found her HS yearbooks and she and her twin look a lot like the Pioneer Woman, Ree Drummond.

Also, I found that the female K that Blake is friends with has an address listed in public records that is on the same street as a previous address of Blakes. So possibly old neighbors?

 

[EmiLove832]

Have you all checked FB lately to see how many Lori Erica Ruff profiles there are? It's insane! There are two women that are posting their real photos but have all of FLEK's info. Then countless other profiles that show Leonard, TX.

Why would anyone do that?

 

[Gardener1850]

Have you all checked FB lately to see how many Lori Erica Ruff profiles there are? It's insane! There are two women that are posting their real photos but have all of FLEK's info. Then countless other profiles that show Leonard, TX.

Why would anyone do that?

Bizarre! Most of them seem to be soft *advertiser censored* accounts. I guess it's some kind of ploy to get extra followers on their page? I know if you have enough followers on some social media site you can get paid to post. I don't know if fb offers that. These "women" seem to be using FLEK's name to get attention. I use the term women loosely because these pages could be some guy in his basement swiping pics from elsewhere and making fake FB accounts. I can't figure out the one that says she is in Iraq and has all military stuff posted though. Weird.

 

[Magnum P.E.]

I just don't believe that the Ruffs would let the sheriff's office and Namus continue to dedicate man hours to attempting to make matches if they knew it was all a big waste of time because they already knew FLEK's identity. That would be so irresponsible surely?

Who knows. Far stranger things have happened. I checked tonight, and I have 314 cousins on Ancestry.com. If someone wanted to of needed to, they could find out who I was through the closest relatives that show up.
If the family REALLY wanted to know FLEK's identity, they could run the daughter's DNA through it. Then it would be up to forensic genealogy. Perhaps they have done that already and have kept quiet. That is how the true identity of Benjamin Kyle was found. I wonder if, when her true identity eventually comes out, all theories will be wrong and we will all say "Who?"
BTW, I think that if I hear someone say "I think she was escaping an abusive relationship" one more time, I will explode. While it could be true, it has been postulated a hundred times with not a shred of evidence.

 

[Harriet]

I spotted that b ruff was Facebook friends with cece Moore a while ago. I think the family know who she is and are hoping this will die a natural death.

I haven't seen any activity from relevant authorities recently which in itself suggests they have given up. I think if they announce that they have identified her and refuse to share that then that may encourage heightened speculation and sleuthing which the family don't want.

I think the family want it to go away

 

[sunnynz]

I spotted that b ruff was Facebook friends with cece Moore a while ago. I think the family know who she is and are hoping this will die a natural death.

I haven't seen any activity from relevant authorities recently which in itself suggests they have given up. I think if they announce that they have identified her and refuse to share that then that may encourage heightened speculation and sleuthing which the family don't want.

I think the family want it to go away

Users on here and in the facebook group have been getting responses to submitted matches and Namus has been updated with new rule outs recently. So there is still activity on the case.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

PIM, I appreciate you trying. I couldn't find a marriage record for that DS's mom either (the DS born in May 1959), but that doesn't mean she wasn't married.

Agreed--(which is why I only stated it was "a possibility" she was born out of wedlock.)

Let me ask you a possibly easier question. How did you come to the conclusion that the mom (N**m*n) was married to the RS in the obituary I posted?

I don't know if they were legally married; what I know is a "DJS****** was born in L.A. on [specific 1959 date] to a woman with maiden name N***** who is also referred to in public records as R*** S******. Highly unusual first name "R" and it is not likely there was any other women so named (with matching surnames N and S) in the area. Here's the key - the two marriage index hints that I have accepted as matching DJS's mom each use a different surname for her when recording her 2nd marriage to RSL in 1979 -- the maiden N***** AND the surname shared by her child, St****r. There is also a public address record for mom R*** (local, identical birthdate) using the last name S******. So here's what my records list looks like (in part) for her:

California, Marriage Index, 1960 - 1985 R*** N****n
California, Marriage Index, 1960 - 1985 R*** S*****r
U.S. Public Records Index, 1950 - 1993, Volume 1 R*** S*****r

You (and a few others in here) have discounted the hints on ancestry as coming "from other people's trees" and therefore not being reliable. What I'm trying to show is how the records themselves can be reliable when combined with logic and deduction. Some record hints might be illogical (eg. one that suggests a person entered the army at age 12); we are free to reject those along with any and all family trees. Other record hints are perfectly reasonable and even irrefutably so. (Eg. A Los Angeles mom with maiden name N***** gave birth to a daughter DJS on such-and-so date. Multiple public records associate the mom's maiden name to that daughter's given surname. That mom uses either surname, apparently interchangeably, in her next marriage record.)

Since DS was NOT mentioned at all in the Obituary and we know that DS is alive I'm inclined to think that DS is NOT RS's daughter. I think you have the wrong man, but IDK. And at this point, unless you can come up with another DS besides the married one that fits the age from the newspaper stories I'm inclined to believe FLEK could not have been the DS who testified at trial.One other thing, I want to make clear about Ancestry (and this is not directed only at you PIM). There's not a big conspiracy to hide records. Recent marriages are not on Ancestry. I was married in the 2000's and my marriage record is not on there. My birth record is not on there either. My grandmother died a couple weeks ago. Her death record/SS record is not there yet. Anything after 1940 is going to be hard to find. Before 1940 is easier because the 1940 census has come out. Many states have a policy of not releasing records until most people in them are dead, to prevent identity theft. Some states don't release anything at all. For example, I have Ancestors who lived in New York State. Their birth records and death records from the 1800's are not online. The only way I could get them is to pay the state/county of their birth for them. So not everything is there on Ancestry. You probably already know all this since you have been on Ancestry a while but I wanted to make it clear for anyone else wondering why we can't always find records.

I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother's passing, Gardener. Yes, it takes a while, though it varies--my mom's death record was available about a year after her recent death. And about the other...it's your prerogative, of course, if you believe RS didn't have a daughter DJS with R*** N***** - that the married Van Nuys DS is someone else's daughter, of same name, locality, and age who may or may not have testified in a murder trial. (And if she didn't, then we still have to wonder where that[/] DJS is...). Personally, I'm not ready to settle on that assumption before trying to find out why there are several different records given for the 'married' DS's birthday, why a search done on that Debbie S and husband yields no results, and why (if she did testify) she would stick around there to raise a family, when at least one killer would be up for parole in ten years. I think I'd be wanting to go into hiding as well. Even if the killers were in prison, their druggie associates could be persuaded to retaliate.

I also know that my 'wrong man' (RS) has a relentlessly curious public records history - eg. A Richard "C" S****** living in Tacoma, WA but then also living in Los Angeles and registered in the military as Richard "B" S****** (identical birthdates)? Other times the minor change is not in the middle initial but in changing the birthday slightly. Maybe making it the same year but a different month, or sometimes a different day (the 1st...easy to remember). It's not that these are 'multiple' men at all - you know this is the same one guy because his household members are the same and sometimes the address itself hasn't even changed. Mistakes can happen in the records. But I've only seen it to this degree and length of time with my own family member who had an alias and was in hiding. Hiding and protecting can be a family affair, and I'm simply wondering if that could be the case, here. I see these kind of identification changes happening with all the family members in this case, particularly from the 80s forward, and especially with the step-mom (multiple names associated with that birth date and address history). Also multiple addresses and PO boxes for the family members, and inexplicable things such as a farm boy having an "address" of a million-dollar L.A. home from the time he graduates military school (age 21) until his death 40+ years later. And I can't help but wonder, with that Laguna Hills address, why would anyone also have up to a half dozen lesser home and apt addresses from L.A. up to Tacoma? Maybe he was a landlord when he wasn't shipped out?

Sorry for the length; this has been incredibly tedious trying to break down the deductive process I used to come to my conclusions. I can only hope it wasn't half as tedious to read as it was to write! You don't have all the information I do in front of you, so it's understandable that you wouldn't have the same perception on this. And no, I don't think ancestry or familysearch are conspiring to hide records from me or anyone else. The sites can't hide information they've not been given access to. Not every record should be expected to be found, even in a typical tree. But in a family tree of 200+ members, now, I do see a noticeable dearth...I think the pattern emerges when you have access to a tree over time, studying it and working with it. I only mention it as an observation, but feel free to disregard any of this if you don't think it's helpful.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I think I might have found the DS that you are referring to alive and sort of well on FB. Living in CA. She is not DJS, rather appears to be DAS, and uses the other, shorter spelling of that first name. Her nickname is Is e usual nickname for that first name, and friends who have known her awhile call her that. She mentions visiting S. Dakota, where RWS, MS, and LS were originally from. There is a picture of her younger self with someone who looks a lot like the S boys did in yearbook photos-- those eyebrows and face shape are pretty distinctive. I don't think DAS belongs to RWS, rather to MS, and his wife RS. The MS I am referring to is the one who is in the same yearbook photo as LS-- on the same page that has a separate picture of RWS with his classmates. So if I am correct, RWS is her uncle. DAS has two sons by two dads, and lived outside of CA for awhile. Maybe it was her in Scottsdale. There is some military stuff on her page-- not unusual really, but along with everything else, it might be telling. She lists a different HS than the LA DS we all looked at, and she states that she graduated in the 80s-- a bit later. So there could still be another DS out there, but I think maybe not attached to RWS or his family? Unless maybe first cousins share a first name, which seems rare. Hopefully, I have left enough of a trail for anyone to check her out. Or I have just confused the heck out of everyone!

Not confusing to me--I've got it all on my screen! The Debbies are related, with DAS being from the San Diego/Castro Valley area. DAS's father is DJS's cousin MS, Jr. Her mother (RES) is the one who signed Ch***'s Naturalization form as a witness to her good character (along with RS). Her grandfather is RS's oldest brother MS. The age span is so great that RS is actually much closer in age to his nephew MS, Jr than his brother MS. Just to keep things lively, there is yet another Deborah S****** related somehow I believe, in Tacoma, though someone upthread mentioned she may be deceased now. She was DLS, b. 1958. The one in Scottsdale is likely DAS, I agree; yes, military permeates the family.

And... if we haven't confused them before, we probably have, now.

Certain names are favored and used repeatedly in this extended family--also a lot of variations on Rose-Rosalie-Rochelle-etc. Some of the family is LDS; another strain is Lutheran, another is Eastern Star. There are specific studies done in that last group concerning women prophets of the Bible, Deborah being one of them. It may be why they favor the name so much.

 

[Beezneez]

Users on here and in the facebook group have been getting responses to submitted matches and Namus has been updated with new rule outs recently. So there is still activity on the case.

weren't the submits posted as rule outs pretty quickly? If they KNOW who LEK was it would be quick work to publicly state that she is definitely not a submitted missing person, with the point of it being more to close that theory down for the suggested missing person.
They may have enough evidence to suggest LEK true identity, but not enough to go through the whole process of proving it legally, so the case stays "open" but everyone knows what happened & there is nothing to prosecute or no need to publicly inform anyone. Since the family has made no effort to push public interest in nearly 3 years it is seeming more likely that they know and are just trying to keep it in a box in the attic, so to speak.

 

[Hank36]

weren't the submits posted as rule outs pretty quickly? If they KNOW who LEK was it would be quick work to publicly state that she is definitely not a submitted missing person, with the point of it being more to close that theory down for the suggested missing person.
They may have enough evidence to suggest LEK true identity, but not enough to go through the whole process of proving it legally, so the case stays "open" but everyone knows what happened & there is nothing to prosecute or no need to publicly inform anyone. Since the family has made no effort to push public interest in nearly 3 years it is seeming more likely that they know and are just trying to keep it in a box in the attic, so to speak.

I'm trying to grasp what the authorities could do once they did determine her identity, as she still appears to be the onlhy person that they could charge with a crime. Maybe they're trying to gather intelligence on these reputed "identity brokers" from the 1980's.

 

[Gardener1850]

I also know that my 'wrong man' (RS) has a relentlessly curious public records history - eg. A Richard "C" S****** living in Tacoma, WA but then also living in Los Angeles and registered in the military as Richard "B" S****** (identical birthdates)? Other times the minor change is not in the middle initial but in changing the birthday slightly. Maybe making it the same year but a different month, or sometimes a different day (the 1st...easy to remember). It's not that these are 'multiple' men at all - you know this is the same one guy because his household members are the same and sometimes the address itself hasn't even changed. Mistakes can happen in the records. But I've only seen it to this degree and length of time with my own family member who had an alias and was in hiding. Hiding and protecting can be a family affair, and I'm simply wondering if that could be the case, here. I see these kind of identification changes happening with all the family members in this case, particularly from the 80s forward, and especially with the step-mom (multiple names associated with that birth date and address history). Also multiple addresses and PO boxes for the family members, and inexplicable things such as a farm boy having an "address" of a million-dollar L.A. home from the time he graduates military school (age 21) until his death 40+ years later. And I can't help but wonder, with that Laguna Hills address, why would anyone also have up to a half dozen lesser home and apt addresses from L.A. up to Tacoma? Maybe he was a landlord when he wasn't shipped out?

RSBM.
I saw the record for the R B S and R C S with different birth dates who shared an address history. I understand that you see a familiar pattern because of you have found identity changes in you own family tree. I see familiar patterns as well but it is the familiar pattern of "public records" making mistakes and co-mingling two people. I have a personal experience with this in MY relatives lives. There are people with similar name and different birthdates who shared an address history. Sometimes they only shared one house for one year in real life but their name "followed" the other person with the similar name and close birthdate in the "public records". I have also seen before where the wife's DOB was placed on the husband's public record and vice versa. IMHO, you cannot trust public records to tell you the truth of who lived there and when. Public records are a good guide and tool but that is all they are--you need an additional source to be sure of the connection between people and even to be sure of their birth dates. I have made complex trees before, just as you are doing, and had someone down as a having a specific birthdate only to find their actual birth record or death record and find out my "guessed" birthdate from public records was wrong. I almost always found an explanation for the wrong birthdate--that it belonged to another family member. Sometimes the explanation was not found in any record though but by asking someone in the family why that birthdate might be there. My uncle died of cancer 15 years ago and after he died his wife started getting notices sent from the health department with his birthdate wrong. They had somehow put him down as being 7 years old and in need of having his vaccinations to start school. She wrote the health dept and called too and in the end she had to actually go there with his death record in hand to show them they had made a mistake--it helped that she was way too old to have a 7 year old child. That wrong birthdate still shows up in "public records" history. If someone who didn't know my family looked at it they would think my aunt had a 7 year old child around the time my uncle died. But there is no such person. It was a mistake that's all.

With all this said, I'm done looking at the Stalders. I wish you luck in your quest to connect them to FLEK. If you find something more conclusive I'm interested but right now it seems too farfetched to me that all these people used multiple birthdates and were never charged with identity theft. If you feel strongly that DS could be FLEK I think you should contact the SS agent in charge of FLEK's case and present the newspaper articles about the trial and your theory. I'll bet the feds know right where DS is given her history--she testified at a drug trial--she might have even been put into witness protection (if the multiple DS we have found alive are not the one who testified).

 

[Gardener1850]

weren't the submits posted as rule outs pretty quickly? If they KNOW who LEK was it would be quick work to publicly state that she is definitely not a submitted missing person, with the point of it being more to close that theory down for the suggested missing person.
They may have enough evidence to suggest LEK true identity, but not enough to go through the whole process of proving it legally, so the case stays "open" but everyone knows what happened & there is nothing to prosecute or no need to publicly inform anyone. Since the family has made no effort to push public interest in nearly 3 years it is seeming more likely that they know and are just trying to keep it in a box in the attic, so to speak.

One submission-- Mona Lisa Lincoln-- was ruled out quickly but others have submitted people and not had rule outs come out yet.
BigCityAccount submitted both Kimberly Rae Doss and Michelle Meredith Mulcahy
Linda9681 Submitted Deborah Lee Tomlinson

Unless I missed the update we have not heard back on these submissions yet. It's irresponsible, IMO to allow LE to continue to devote resources to this case if they "know" who she was. They could make a public statement that her identity was discovered but the family asked for privacy and that would be that. People would probably still discuss her for a while but it would take her name off of sites like Namus.

 

[Gardener1850]

I'm trying to grasp what the authorities could do once they did determine her identity, as she still appears to be the onlhy person that they could charge with a crime. Maybe they're trying to gather intelligence on these reputed "identity brokers" from the 1980's.

If people helped her change her identity they could be charged as well. Another thing to think about is that we discussed her estate recently--if she had an estate I wonder if it was even released or if all her assets were frozen pending the discovery of her identity? She worked under a fraudulently obtained SS#. So any SS benefits her family would normally get would not be given them. If she had life insurance that was supposed to go to her daughter it would not be paid out. It seems the Ruffs are well off enough they are maybe not concerned about that but it's another thing to think about.

 

[ALansby]

It is quite amazing to me that FLEX resembles so many missing people!

It is truly like she is the girl next door.

The one picture of FLEK strikes me as looking so much like Angie Harmon.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

RSBM.
I saw the record for the R B S and R C S with different birth dates who shared an address history. I understand that you see a familiar pattern because of you have found identity changes in you own family tree. I see familiar patterns as well but it is the familiar pattern of "public records" making mistakes and co-mingling two people. I have a personal experience with this in MY relatives lives. There are people with similar name and different birthdates who shared an address history. Sometimes they only shared one house for one year in real life but their name "followed" the other person with the similar name and close birthdate in the "public records". I have also seen before where the wife's DOB was placed on the husband's public record and vice versa. IMHO, you cannot trust public records to tell you the truth of who lived there and when. Public records are a good guide and tool but that is all they are--you need an additional source to be sure of the connection between people and even to be sure of their birth dates. I have made complex trees before, just as you are doing, and had someone down as a having a specific birthdate only to find their actual birth record or death record and find out my "guessed" birthdate from public records was wrong. I almost always found an explanation for the wrong birthdate--that it belonged to another family member. Sometimes the explanation was not found in any record though but by asking someone in the family why that birthdate might be there. My uncle died of cancer 15 years ago and after he died his wife started getting notices sent from the health department with his birthdate wrong. They had somehow put him down as being 7 years old and in need of having his vaccinations to start school. She wrote the health dept and called too and in the end she had to actually go there with his death record in hand to show them they had made a mistake--it helped that she was way too old to have a 7 year old child. That wrong birthdate still shows up in "public records" history. If someone who didn't know my family looked at it they would think my aunt had a 7 year old child around the time my uncle died. But there is no such person. It was a mistake that's all.

With all this said, I'm done looking at the Stalders. I wish you luck in your quest to connect them to FLEK. If you find something more conclusive I'm interested but right now it seems too farfetched to me that all these people used multiple birthdates and were never charged with identity theft. If you feel strongly that DS could be FLEK I think you should contact the SS agent in charge of FLEK's case and present the newspaper articles about the trial and your theory. I'll bet the feds know right where DS is given her history--she testified at a drug trial--she might have even been put into witness protection (if the multiple DS we have found alive are not the one who testified).

BBM

I'm of the opinion that, if FLEK is this DJS daughter of RS and RN, she wasn't likely to have been put into the WITSEC program, because it'd be my guess she was not forthcoming as to the drug associates higher up the chain (likely out of justifiable fear concerning their retaliation). In order for authorities to know she needed that sort of protection after these two killers were incarcerated, she would have had to divulge details beyond this murder case that may have incriminated her. For her testimony against these killers, she received immunity from prosecution pertaining to this case - not all future cases and charges. In other words, I think she was hiding out from past dangerous acquaintances as well as the possibility of LE catching up to her. If her dad or step-mother were also somehow involved in the drug trade, that would be just one more impetus to disappear on her own, and probably with their blessing--to protect them. She wanted to wipe the slate clean.

Concerning the BBM, JMO, but I don't believe people would be charged with identity theft for fudging their birthday or middle initial on a residential address form. It was just enough to be confusing, not enough to warrant pursuing charges, especially if no illegal monetary gain was involved. (And for all we know, they might have even even been doing this with the government's blessing. None of these deviations occurred until after the men joined the military.)

For all the intrigue that this mystery has for me, I am likely not going to be sharing my theory with the SSA...because it is just that, at this point. And mainly because, if I'm correct, I think they already know or at least suspect all this, anyway. (I've said as much to HawkFan, who is also in the Stalder camp.) I'm thinking of the welfare of that little girl, and the rest of FLEK's remaining family. Cannot see any good to be gained at this point, now that the principal players are dead--rather, can see much potential for 'bad' (media-wise) in this family's life if I am correct. (And for all we know, the association could even put that little girl's life in danger.) Thought this a month ago, still think so.

 

[nonancydrew]

So I've read everything about FLEK and have no better theories than any of you. But!! I do have one question that someone here probably knows the answer to. Is there any possible way to read the suicide letter? I know whoever did read it considered it to be ramblings of a mentally unstable person, but what if there were clues in there? I was a caretaker for adults with mental illness and a lot of them would talk about things that happened in the past as if it was current. I just wonder if there's any tiny tidbit of information that seemed incoherent but was actually relevant to her true identity.
Also, I once looked through Idaho's unclaimed money website and found some money owed to BST with an address I think was linked to her. It was a while ago but I was too shy to post something that meant nothing, but I thought maybe this would add something to the timeline of where she was before becoming FLEK.

 

[Gardener1850]

So I've read everything about FLEK and have no better theories than any of you. But!! I do have one question that someone here probably knows the answer to. Is there any possible way to read the suicide letter? I know whoever did read it considered it to be ramblings of a mentally unstable person, but what if there were clues in there? I was a caretaker for adults with mental illness and a lot of them would talk about things that happened in the past as if it was current. I just wonder if there's any tiny tidbit of information that seemed incoherent but was actually relevant to her true identity.
Also, I once looked through Idaho's unclaimed money website and found some money owed to BST with an address I think was linked to her. It was a while ago but I was too shy to post something that meant nothing, but I thought maybe this would add something to the timeline of where she was before becoming FLEK.

Welcome! The suicide note has never been released to the public. There has been discussion on whether someone should file and FOIA request for the suicide investigation but AFAIK no one has done that. I personally would like to see part of it to compare handwriting to the notes page.

We have discussed the unclaimed money for BST at length. I found the person who lived at the address on the unclaimed site and she is a real and not FLEK. Her name was BST by marriage. This doesn't rule out that FLEK somehow borrowed her name and address at some point but IMO that record has nothing to do with FLEK.

 

[OBrunhilde!]

Not confusing to me--I've got it all on my screen! The Debbies are related, with DAS being from the San Diego/Castro Valley area. DAS's father is DJS's cousin MS, Jr. Her mother (RES) is the one who signed Ch***'s Naturalization form as a witness to her good character (along with RS). Her grandfather is RS's oldest brother MS. The age span is so great that RS is actually much closer in age to his nephew MS, Jr than his brother MS. Just to keep things lively, there is yet another Deborah S****** related somehow I believe, in Tacoma, though someone upthread mentioned she may be deceased now. She was DLS, b. 1958. The one in Scottsdale is likely DAS, I agree; yes, military permeates the family.

And... if we haven't confused them before, we probably have, now.

Certain names are favored and used repeatedly in this extended family--also a lot of variations on Rose-Rosalie-Rochelle-etc. Some of the family is LDS; another strain is Lutheran, another is Eastern Star. There are specific studies done in that last group concerning women prophets of the Bible, Deborah being one of them. It may be why they favor the name so much.[/QUOTE

So not first cousins, but second cousins. I did notice that the Stldr family tends to use the same names repeatedly. I don't know if it makes any difference to your investigation, PIM, but the DS in Tacoma has indeed passed away. I did see that RWS was listed as residing in Tacoma, in an apartment building that is now a fast food place. That gave me pause, because it is quite close to a military base. The likeliest explanation is that RWS's info was jumbled with the Tacoma family's, but I don't know for sure. Also, it stood out me as TJT the eldest daughter of TT lives there, and it is very close to where BST perished. I don't know what that means, if anything.

 

[nonancydrew]

Thanks Gardener!! I knew someone here would know! Ya know, looking at the suicide note for handwriting purposes could be really valuable. Sometimes when I've written something lengthy my handwriting sort of changes throughout. Is it difficult to request a document through FOIA?