TX - 'Lori Ruff', Longview, WhtFem UP9863, *General Discussion and Theories* #5

[PoirotryInMotion]

A lot of these posts are really starting tto go over my head...are these the initials of people I should know about? Right now, I'm most comfortable with the idea that she came from a family that gained some type of public noteriety--it that is the general reasoning behind these cryptic posts?

That said, I'm also skeptical of the theoory that she was in the Federal Witness Protection Program, for no better reason than as the government is the entity issuing social security numbers, why would it need to recycle the social security number of a dead toddler in this instance? All it would need to do is take a number, print up a social security card and driver's license with "Lori Kennedy's" photos, and hand them to her. No need for a court order or an appropriated birth certificate.

Yes, it's tedious to use initials. Just don't feel comfortable about speculating using people's full, searchable names. It feels like an invasion of their privacy (to me). I agree...don't think she was in the witness protection program.

Wow. I'm glad someone is able to keep up with all these initial and dates You've all put a lot of time into it.
I was thinking about Richard C. Stalder, the husband of Jennifer Chu Stalder/Chong Chu Stalder/?Chong Chu Kim?
Can you remind me if anyone has located his son G. Stalder's mother? I can't seem to find any information in any of the previous threads about her despite there being numerous posts.
I'm also thinking back to the story that FLEK was from Arizona (highly unlikely but possible) or had lived there for a while (possible). C.C. and Richard Stalder had friends or family living in Arizona, Henderson NV, and Laguna, CA, those individuals had children that would have been around the same age as FLEK. I'm wondering if they would have any recollection of FLEK?

Hi Sherwood Park, I believe she may be deceased, though I haven't rounded up sufficient documentation, yet. (A possible third wife got crossed off my list yesterday, and I'm currently thinking C.C. may have actually been his mother.)

 

[CeCeMoore]

Definitely a possibility! I commented on that posting that I looked at his friends list to see for myself and noticed he is friends with CeCe Moore, the geneticist that helps people find long lost family members. Crazy because I just mentioned her here on this thread a few days ago. Wish there was a way to find out when they became friends.

I am always lurking, reading this thread (and a number of others) along with the rest of you. BTW, I am not a geneticist, but rather a genetic genealogist.

Blake accepted my friend request in December, but he has never responded to my messages offering help. If his daughter is indeed Lori's biological daughter then I believe I could definitely identify FLEK. The DNA profile that Velling reportedly uploaded would have only been of FLEK's mtDNA, which would not be helpful in identifying her. We need to work with SNP-tested autosomal DNA. This type of test is only done by AncestryDNA, 23andMe and Family Tree DNA and must be done on a living person. It is very different than what LE uses. (We used these tests to identify BK and Paul Fronczak, among many others.)

I do think it is very possible that the leaked info a few months ago about her being identified could be true. The way it was described by the person(s) who reported it was exactly the methods I would have used and so they clearly knew enough that it sounded legitimate. The only hesitation I have about this is that I know the vast majority of genetic genealogists who would be skilled enough to do this and I have heard nothing from any of them about her case. Along with all of you, I would love to know if this case is solved.

 

[EmiLove832]

I am always lurking, reading this thread (and a number of others) along with the rest of you. BTW, I am not a geneticist, but rather a genetic genealogist.

Blake accepted my friend request in December, but he has never responded to my messages offering help. If his daughter is indeed Lori's biological daughter than I believe I could definitely identify FLEK. The DNA profile that Velling reportedly uploaded would have only been of FLEK's mtDNA, which would not be helpful in identifying her. We need to work with SNP-tested autosomal DNA. This type of test is only done by AncestryDNA, 23andMe and Family Tree DNA and must be done on a living person. It is very different than what LE uses. (We used these tests to identify BK and Paul Fronczak, among many others.)

I do think it is very possible that the leaked info a few months ago about her being identified could be true. The way it was described by the person(s) who reported it was exactly the methods I would have used and so they clearly knew enough that it sounded legitimate. The only hesitation I have about this is that I know the vast majority of genetic genealogists who would be skilled enough to do this and I have heard nothing from any of them about her case. Along with all of you, I would love to know if this case is solved.

First, let me apologize not getting your title correct.

Second, yay! I'm so excited to see that you responded to my post. I've seen some of your work and before I saw you and Blake were friends on FB I considered reaching out to you regarding Lori. No need now since you've responded here.

The leaked information meaning the story that Lori was a runaway from Pennsylvania? I think most of us dismissed that was Lori since shortly after a news story came out about a woman that was still living in Texas that had been a runaway from Pennsylvania.

 

[CeCeMoore]

First, let me apologize not getting your title correct.

Second, yay! I'm so excited to see that you responded to my post. I've seen some of your work and before I saw you and Blake were friends on FB I considered reaching out to you regarding Lori. No need now since you've responded here.

The leaked information meaning the story that Lori was a runaway from Pennsylvania? I think most of us dismissed that was Lori since shortly after a news story came out about a woman that was still living in Texas that had been a runaway from Pennsylvania.

No apologies necessary. It is a common mistake. I just wanted to clarify since a geneticist would have a PhD and genetic genealogy is a non-credentialed field (partly because it is so new).

Someone wrote to me long ago asking me to look at FLEK's case. I was hooked right away and have followed the threads here since. As opposed to deceased Does, this is exactly the type of case that especially interests me since there is someone living whose DNA could lead to her true identity (assuming she is her biodaughter and not from an egg donor).

Yes, that is to what I was referring. I am not so sure about that explanation since the person who leaked the info was quite clear about the methods used and they didn't match up with the other story. Hopefully, time will tell.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that BR ever checks his FB messages, so even if he wanted my help, he wouldn't know I had offered it.

 

[Hank36]

They are discussing FLEK being a woman with initials DJS who testified at a murder trial in 1988. You can read about it here: http://articles.latimes.com/1985-11-14/local/me-2414_1_van-nuys
The theory is that DJS became FLEK to hide after the trial. This theory comes from "402 months" being written on the notes page. The murderer she testified against was sentenced for 31 years which is close to 402 months. IMO this theory has now been debunked because Emilove found DJS alive on social media. There is some debate though if this DJS is the same one who testified at the trial.
Sorry it is so confusing but when discussing living people we have to be careful not to use their names. We don't want people finding their name (or their loved ones name) associated with a crime board if they had nothing to do with FLEK.

Ah, thank you.

Again, I guess I keep trying to take a step back and look at bigger picture issues--what are investigators doing and thinking, what have the people that knew her said about her, etc.

The quesion I have as to whether this woman was motivated by fear, by shame, or by a more practical consideration. If she was motivated by fear, i.e. she changed her idenity to hide from somebody in her previous life, it strikes me that this was a secret that sooner or later she would have shared with somebody such as, for example, a spouse. On the surface, it makes a lot more sense that she was motivated by shame, i.e. she didn't want people in her new life to know the details of her previous life. This is the kind of secret that one shares with absolutely nobody, and in this case, is literally taken to the grave. I know that is a relatively broad, simplistic categorization, but if she was trying to escape a religious cult, evade an abusive spouse, or hide from organized crime, she really didn't benefit at all by keeping that secret from people in her new life.

 

[Fukiyama]

I am always lurking, reading this thread (and a number of others) along with the rest of you. BTW, I am not a geneticist, but rather a genetic genealogist.

Blake accepted my friend request in December, but he has never responded to my messages offering help. If his daughter is indeed Lori's biological daughter then I believe I could definitely identify FLEK. The DNA profile that Velling reportedly uploaded would have only been of FLEK's mtDNA, which would not be helpful in identifying her. We need to work with SNP-tested autosomal DNA. This type of test is only done by AncestryDNA, 23andMe and Family Tree DNA and must be done on a living person. It is very different than what LE uses. (We used these tests to identify BK and Paul Fronczak, among many others.)

I do think it is very possible that the leaked info a few months ago about her being identified could be true. The way it was described by the person(s) who reported it was exactly the methods I would have used and so they clearly knew enough that it sounded legitimate. The only hesitation I have about this is that I know the vast majority of genetic genealogists who would be skilled enough to do this and I have heard nothing from any of them about her case. Along with all of you, I would love to know if this case is solved.

It would be cool if you became a verified expert. You should contact a mod about that.

 

[EmiLove832]

Thank ladies. I sent her a message and included the link to the Seattle Times article like you suggested. I'll let you all know if I hear back from her.

Quoting myself to update that I heard back from the young lady this morning and she responded that Lori looks like she could be a Kingston and that she would look into it. I'll keep you all updated if I hear anything more.

 

[newfiedee]

well i recieve a email back from namus on janice and lori.



Driscoll, Dustin
11:58 (21 minutes ago)

to me
Hi there,

Thank you. Both of these cases have DNA samples up in CODIS searching nationally and there are no associations made, so these cases can be excluded at this time. I have sent this on to investigators anyways just in case they want to look into this matter any further.

Thank you,

Dustin Driscoll
Regional System Administrator - AZ, CA, HI, NV
National Missing & Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
3500 Camp Bowie Blvd, 6th Floor
Fort Worth, TX 76107
Phone: (817) 240-4106

From: diana white [mailto:diane.w.8398@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 11:04 PM
To: Driscoll, Dustin
Subject: Re: RE UP # 9863


Anythoughts.... i dont understand this codis thing

 

[FrankieB]

I have seen and met tall women and their hands are proportionate. Lori's hands were extremely long, any theories about that? Something that stuck out for me was the alleged story she kept staring at them during counceling.

 

[Gardener1850]

Quoting myself to update that I heard back from the young lady this morning and she responded that Lori looks like she could be a Kingston and that she would look into it. I'll keep you all updated if I hear anything more.

That sounds promising. If she can convince other Kingstons maybe they will agree to DNA testing? I really think DNA is how we will solve this.

 

[Gardener1850]

I am always lurking, reading this thread (and a number of others) along with the rest of you. BTW, I am not a geneticist, but rather a genetic genealogist.

Blake accepted my friend request in December, but he has never responded to my messages offering help. If his daughter is indeed Lori's biological daughter then I believe I could definitely identify FLEK. The DNA profile that Velling reportedly uploaded would have only been of FLEK's mtDNA, which would not be helpful in identifying her. We need to work with SNP-tested autosomal DNA. This type of test is only done by AncestryDNA, 23andMe and Family Tree DNA and must be done on a living person. It is very different than what LE uses. (We used these tests to identify BK and Paul Fronczak, among many others.)

I do think it is very possible that the leaked info a few months ago about her being identified could be true. The way it was described by the person(s) who reported it was exactly the methods I would have used and so they clearly knew enough that it sounded legitimate. The only hesitation I have about this is that I know the vast majority of genetic genealogists who would be skilled enough to do this and I have heard nothing from any of them about her case. Along with all of you, I would love to know if this case is solved.

Thank you for answering our curiosity on when you became friends with Blake and explaining the type of DNA they submitted. I hope someday he will want to know. Maybe when his daughter is older and asks more questions SHE will want to know and you can help her. You do fascinating work and I agree with the previous poster who said you should become an verified expert here at Websleuths. We're happy to have your input!

 

[Gardener1850]

well i recieve a email back from namus on janice and lori.



Driscoll, Dustin
11:58 (21 minutes ago)

to me
Hi there,

Thank you. Both of these cases have DNA samples up in CODIS searching nationally and there are no associations made, so these cases can be excluded at this time. I have sent this on to investigators anyways just in case they want to look into this matter any further.

Thank you,

Dustin Driscoll
Regional System Administrator - AZ, CA, HI, NV
National Missing & Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
3500 Camp Bowie Blvd, 6th Floor
Fort Worth, TX 76107
Phone: (817) 240-4106

From: diana white [mailto:diane.w.8398@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 11:04 PM
To: Driscoll, Dustin
Subject: Re: RE UP # 9863


Anythoughts.... i dont understand this codis thing

CODIS is a DNA database. It mostly has criminal DNA but also has missing persons/unidentified persons DNA. CODIS can only be accessed by Law Enforcement (LE). Namus is the Database of missing and unidentified individuals. Namus is run by non-LE but they co-operate with LE to check CODIS for matches. At least this is how I have understood it, I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Does that help answer your question of what CODIS is?

 

[newfiedee]

thank you

 

[CeCeMoore]

It would be cool if you became a verified expert. You should contact a mod about that.

I did a few months back, but Trisha and I were never successful in connecting. (Both so busy!)

 

[Gardener1850]

It was not online at the time : ( I looked over two years ago and no connections. Traced all other obits. Looked at sports page. Bands in town. Nothing! This was pre Howder! Next time I'm in the area I will look again. I was kinda open when reading...a warehouse burned down, was her father a arsonist? Local Doctor who adopted a bunch of kids? A band from Seattle with a lead female singer of had the family look? I went as far as I could with the non Stalder folks...a fresh set of eyes wouldn't hurt : )

I found two news articles about the Turner girls dying in the fire and neither article is the same one as the one published by the Seattle Times. I was able to download the entire news page for these articles and I will attempt to upload them here. For anyone who is lost: we are looking at the idea that Lori or a family member of Lori's may have saved the newspaper with the article about the Turner fire because they were interested in something else on the same page. Ideally, it would be nice if we had an actual paper to see what was printed on the reverse of the fire article--I'm thinking about the possibility someone clipped an article and the fire story was printed on the reverse of what they saved. However I can't figure out how to find the next page digitally so this will have to do for now. If nothing else, it's good to get the other clippings about the Turner fire here. These articles seem to be less detailed than the other one but maybe someone will notice something new from them.

 

[Gardener1850]

View attachment December 29 1971 Paper Seattle Daily Times.pdf

 

[Gardener1850]

View attachment December 30 1971 Paper Oregonian.pdf

 

[Gardener1850]

View attachment 100003

The 1971 Oregonian has several obituaries on the page which we should look at to see if a family genealogist might have saved the paper. Directly below the story about the fire is a story about a man who died when a tree fell on him while cutting firewood. I have began researching this man's family already --the W's-- since the story was right below the fire story and he died in Jackson County.

 

[Hank36]

Is there any other evidence tying "Lori Ruff" to the Seattle area besides the fact that she stole the social security number and birth certificate of a person who died there?

 

[Gardener1850]

Is there any other evidence tying "Lori Ruff" to the Seattle area besides the fact that she stole the social security number and birth certificate of a person who died there?

No. She could have been from anywhere but remember that back in the 1980's there was no internet. She had to find out about the girl's deaths somehow. The most common way in the 70's and 80's was to walk through a cemetery and choose a dead child close to their age. She may have done just that but she got extra lucky that the child she chose--Becky Sue was the only one born in a different state from where she died. That made it even harder to discover the ID theft. Many people on these boards have theorized she knew about the Turner girls deaths because she was related to them somehow. We have no evidence one way or the other of that, however. Anyone who lived in an area that published an article on the fire could know about it.