TX - 'Lori Ruff', Longview, WhtFem UP9863, *General Discussion and Theories* #5

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nonancydrew said:
Thanks Gardener!! I knew someone here would know! Ya know, looking at the suicide note for handwriting purposes could be really valuable. Sometimes when I've written something lengthy my handwriting sort of changes throughout. Is it difficult to request a document through FOIA?
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I've never done an FOIA request so I hope someone else can answer that. I know there is a fee involved and the cost varies.
 
Sorry to interrupt with an OT, but this is Important

For any members who have not seen Tricia's announcement at the top of this page, and the thread about our dear Bessie here:

Bessie has given her all to this website. We need Bessie and right now Bessie needs us !!

Whatever help any of us can give is so needed and will be so very appreciated.
 
PoirotryInMotion said:
Not confusing to me--I've got it all on my screen! :)The Debbies are related, with DAS being from the San Diego/Castro Valley area. DAS's father is DJS's cousin MS, Jr. Her mother (RES) is the one who signed Ch***'s Naturalization form as a witness to her good character (along with RS). Her grandfather is RS's oldest brother MS. The age span is so great that RS is actually much closer in age to his nephew MS, Jr than his brother MS. Just to keep things lively, there is yet another Deborah S****** related somehow I believe, in Tacoma, though someone upthread mentioned she may be deceased now. She was DLS, b. 1958. The one in Scottsdale is likely DAS, I agree; yes, military permeates the family.

And... if we haven't confused them before, we probably have, now.

Certain names are favored and used repeatedly in this extended family--also a lot of variations on Rose-Rosalie-Rochelle-etc. Some of the family is LDS; another strain is Lutheran, another is Eastern Star. There are specific studies done in that last group concerning women prophets of the Bible, Deborah being one of them. It may be why they favor the name so much.
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He lived five minutes from Fort Lewis. I went to the Tacoma library to see why he would save the newspaper with BST obit in it. The only thing I found was a article about troops coming back from Vietnam. I recall he lived there at the time of BST death...right?
 
HawkFan2014 said:
He lived five minutes from Fort Lewis. I went to the Tacoma library to see why he would save the newspaper with BST obit in it. The only thing I found was a article about troops coming back from Vietnam. I recall he lived there at the time of BST death...right?
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Hawkfan--that's a brilliant idea. Is there any place where the entire newspaper is online to view? Perhaps FLEK ran across the article about the fire while looking for something else or perhaps it was saved for another reason. I know you're trying to connect FLEK to the Stalders but I suggest we look at any obituaries or other newspaper articles featuring individuals/families on the same page as the story about the fire. There may be other leads there.
 
Gardener1850 said:
Hawkfan--that's a brilliant idea. Is there any place where the entire newspaper is online to view? Perhaps FLEK ran across the article about the fire while looking for something else or perhaps it was saved for another reason. I know you're trying to connect FLEK to the Stalders but I suggest we look at any obituaries or other newspaper articles featuring individuals/families on the same page as the story about the fire. There may be other leads there.
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It was not online at the time : ( I looked over two years ago and no connections. Traced all other obits. Looked at sports page. Bands in town. Nothing! This was pre Howder! Next time I'm in the area I will look again. I was kinda open when reading...a warehouse burned down, was her father a arsonist? Local Doctor who adopted a bunch of kids? A band from Seattle with a lead female singer of had the family look? I went as far as I could with the non Stalder folks...a fresh set of eyes wouldn't hurt : )
 
HawkFan2014 said:
It was not online at the time : ( I looked over two years ago and no connections. Traced all other obits. Looked at sports page. Bands in town. Nothing! This was pre Howder! Next time I'm in the area I will look again. I was kinda open when reading...a warehouse burned down, was her father a arsonist? Local Doctor who adopted a bunch of kids? A band from Seattle with a lead female singer of had the family look? I went as far as I could with the non Stalder folks...a fresh set of eyes wouldn't hurt : )
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Wow, you did great work! I would like to see it myself. The article about the fire was actually published in two different newspapers. In one of the newspapers the surviving daughter's last name was misprinted as being different from the father and mother's name--I think it was printed as Thompson instead of Turner. I'll have to go looking for that other article as I know I saw it when I first was reading about this case.

ETA: I found the article with the wrong last name and it was Thomas but the fire marshall in the story had the last name Thomas so it's a good chance the journalist mis-typed the girls last name as Thomas instead of Turner.
 
PoirotryInMotion said:
Agreed--(which is why I only stated it was "a possibility" she was born out of wedlock.)



I don't know if they were legally married; what I know is a "DJS****** was born in L.A. on [specific 1959 date] to a woman with maiden name N***** who is also referred to in public records as R*** S******. Highly unusual first name "R" and it is not likely there was any other women so named (with matching surnames N and S) in the area. Here's the key - the two marriage index hints that I have accepted as matching DJS's mom each use a different surname for her when recording her 2nd marriage to RSL in 1979 -- the maiden N***** AND the surname shared by her child, St****r. There is also a public address record for mom R*** (local, identical birthdate) using the last name S******. So here's what my records list looks like (in part) for her:

California, Marriage Index, 1960 - 1985 R*** N****n
California, Marriage Index, 1960 - 1985 R*** S*****r
U.S. Public Records Index, 1950 - 1993, Volume 1 R*** S*****r

You (and a few others in here) have discounted the hints on ancestry as coming "from other people's trees" and therefore not being reliable. What I'm trying to show is how the records themselves can be reliable when combined with logic and deduction. Some record hints might be illogical (eg. one that suggests a person entered the army at age 12); we are free to reject those along with any and all family trees. Other record hints are perfectly reasonable and even irrefutably so. (Eg. A Los Angeles mom with maiden name N***** gave birth to a daughter DJS on such-and-so date. Multiple public records associate the mom's maiden name to that daughter's given surname. That mom uses either surname, apparently interchangeably, in her next marriage record.)



I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother's passing, Gardener. Yes, it takes a while, though it varies--my mom's death record was available about a year after her recent death. And about the other...it's your prerogative, of course, if you believe RS didn't have a daughter DJS with R*** N***** - that the married Van Nuys DS is someone else's daughter, of same name, locality, and age who may or may not have testified in a murder trial. (And if she didn't, then we still have to wonder where that[/] DJS is...). Personally, I'm not ready to settle on that assumption before trying to find out why there are several different records given for the 'married' DS's birthday, why a search done on that Debbie S and husband yields no results, and why (if she did testify) she would stick around there to raise a family, when at least one killer would be up for parole in ten years. I think I'd be wanting to go into hiding as well. Even if the killers were in prison, their druggie associates could be persuaded to retaliate.

I also know that my 'wrong man' (RS) has a relentlessly curious public records history - eg. A Richard "C" S****** living in Tacoma, WA but then also living in Los Angeles and registered in the military as Richard "B" S****** (identical birthdates)? Other times the minor change is not in the middle initial but in changing the birthday slightly. Maybe making it the same year but a different month, or sometimes a different day (the 1st...easy to remember). It's not that these are 'multiple' men at all - you know this is the same one guy because his household members are the same and sometimes the address itself hasn't even changed. Mistakes can happen in the records. But I've only seen it to this degree and length of time with my own family member who had an alias and was in hiding. Hiding and protecting can be a family affair, and I'm simply wondering if that could be the case, here. I see these kind of identification changes happening with all the family members in this case, particularly from the 80s forward, and especially with the step-mom (multiple names associated with that birth date and address history). Also multiple addresses and PO boxes for the family members, and inexplicable things such as a farm boy having an "address" of a million-dollar L.A. home from the time he graduates military school (age 21) until his death 40+ years later. And I can't help but wonder, with that Laguna Hills address, why would anyone also have up to a half dozen lesser home and apt addresses from L.A. up to Tacoma? Maybe he was a landlord when he wasn't shipped out?

Sorry for the length; this has been incredibly tedious trying to break down the deductive process I used to come to my conclusions. I can only hope it wasn't half as tedious to read as it was to write! :eek: You don't have all the information I do in front of you, so it's understandable that you wouldn't have the same perception on this. And no, I don't think ancestry or familysearch are conspiring to hide records from me or anyone else. ;) The sites can't hide information they've not been given access to. Not every record should be expected to be found, even in a typical tree. But in a family tree of 200+ members, now, I do see a noticeable dearth...I think the pattern emerges when you have access to a tree over time, studying it and working with it. I only mention it as an observation, but feel free to disregard any of this if you don't think it's helpful.
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PIM,

I found DJS (born 1959), her children and her now ex-husband DMS on FB this morning.

Her profile is mostly private but I can see her last public post was made July of this year and others in 2013.

I think we can conclude that DJS was not FLEK.
 
EmiLove832 said:
PIM,

I found DJS (born 1959), her children and her now ex-husband DMS on FB this morning.

Her profile is mostly private but I can see her last public post was made July of this year and others in 2013.

I think we can conclude that DJS was not FLEK.
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Good sleuthing! But it's not quite sealed up, yet...
The problem is, is this DJS the dau of RN and RS? Is this the daughter omitted from the RS obituary Gardener posted upthread? Or, given the abundance of Debbie St@lders, is this another one? Do we know if this the same DJS who testified at trial? Or did that DJS start her new identity three days after the second trial conviction?
 
A lot of these posts are really starting tto go over my head...are these the initials of people I should know about? Right now, I'm most comfortable with the idea that she came from a family that gained some type of public noteriety--it that is the general reasoning behind these cryptic posts?

That said, I'm also skeptical of the theoory that she was in the Federal Witness Protection Program, for no better reason than as the government is the entity issuing social security numbers, why would it need to recycle the social security number of a dead toddler in this instance? All it would need to do is take a number, print up a social security card and driver's license with "Lori Kennedy's" photos, and hand them to her. No need for a court order or an appropriated birth certificate.
 
HawkFan2014 said:
He lived five minutes from Fort Lewis. I went to the Tacoma library to see why he would save the newspaper with BST obit in it. The only thing I found was a article about troops coming back from Vietnam. I recall he lived there at the time of BST death...right?
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Wait, who saved the newspaper with the BST obit in it? Sorry if everyone knows this but me. If it was FLEK, I thought that clipping that is in the "Gallery of Evidence" came from the neighbor/investigator they hired.
I only have seen an ancestry record stating that RSW lived in Tacoma, but no date was listed. Have the dates in which he lived there been verified elsewhere?
 
OBrunhilde! said:
Wait, who saved the newspaper with the BST obit in it? Sorry if everyone knows this but me. If it was FLEK, I thought that clipping that is in the "Gallery of Evidence" came from the neighbor/investigator they hired.
I only have seen an ancestry record stating that RSW lived in Tacoma, but no date was listed. Have the dates in which he lived there been verified elsewhere?
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No, we are just speculating that FLEK might have seen the story about Turner girls dying in a fire if she or a family member saved the paper from that day for another article or if she was researching her own family history and saw that article. I think there is a possibility she was into genealogy because she took interest in the Ruff family history. I don't have anything to prove this however, it's just an impression I have. SHe might have also taken an interest in the Ruff genealogy in an attempt to bond with her MIL. Blake's mom published several books on their family history long before Lori was her DIL. So I could see it either way.
 
Hank36 said:
A lot of these posts are really starting tto go over my head...are these the initials of people I should know about? Right now, I'm most comfortable with the idea that she came from a family that gained some type of public noteriety--it that is the general reasoning behind these cryptic posts?

That said, I'm also skeptical of the theoory that she was in the Federal Witness Protection Program, for no better reason than as the government is the entity issuing social security numbers, why would it need to recycle the social security number of a dead toddler in this instance? All it would need to do is take a number, print up a social security card and driver's license with "Lori Kennedy's" photos, and hand them to her. No need for a court order or an appropriated birth certificate.
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They are discussing FLEK being a woman with initials DJS who testified at a murder trial in 1988. You can read about it here: http://articles.latimes.com/1985-11-14/local/me-2414_1_van-nuys
The theory is that DJS became FLEK to hide after the trial. This theory comes from "402 months" being written on the notes page. The murderer she testified against was sentenced for 31 years which is close to 402 months. IMO this theory has now been debunked because Emilove found DJS alive on social media. There is some debate though if this DJS is the same one who testified at the trial.
Sorry it is so confusing but when discussing living people we have to be careful not to use their names. We don't want people finding their name (or their loved ones name) associated with a crime board if they had nothing to do with FLEK.
 
the pic of janice is when she was 14 andthere are no more . not sure how accurate her bio is..


ljj.jpg
 
newfiedee said:
the pic of janice is when she was 14 andthere are no more . not sure how accurate her bio is..


attachment.php
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Sorry, I just don't see the resemblance. Janice has a widow's peak in her hairline. If you look at other pictures of Lori with her hair back off her forehead you can see her hairline is straight across her forehead without a widow's peak. No matter how much someone changes their hairstyle or has plastic surgery, I don't think they could get rid of that widow's peak hairline.
 
I don't see a resemblance. Unless she is complete reconstruction surgery I'd think you'd be able to spot similarities without looking too hard. How many times have you compared a baby picture to the child? The similarities are there usually.

I'm fascinated by this mystery. I always go back to I think the family has some answers but aren't sharing.

I havent read too many cases like this, but how often do they branch out in so many directions where names, locations etc. connect?
 
im no expert but i just zoomed in the pic and that doesnt look like a widows peek i could be wrong...
 
Gardener1850 said:
They are discussing FLEK being a woman with initials DJS who testified at a murder trial in 1988. You can read about it here: http://articles.latimes.com/1985-11-14/local/me-2414_1_van-nuys
The theory is that DJS became FLEK to hide after the trial. This theory comes from "402 months" being written on the notes page. The murderer she testified against was sentenced for 31 years which is close to 402 months. IMO this theory has now been debunked because Emilove found DJS alive on social media. There is some debate though if this DJS is the same one who testified at the trial.
Sorry it is so confusing but when discussing living people we have to be careful not to use their names. We don't want people finding their name (or their loved ones name) associated with a crime board if they had nothing to do with FLEK.
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Wow. I'm glad someone is able to keep up with all these initial and dates :D You've all put a lot of time into it.
I was thinking about Richard C. Stalder, the husband of Jennifer Chu Stalder/Chong Chu Stalder/?Chong Chu Kim?
Can you remind me if anyone has located his son G. Stalder's mother? I can't seem to find any information in any of the previous threads about her despite there being numerous posts.
I'm also thinking back to the story that FLEK was from Arizona (highly unlikely but possible) or had lived there for a while (possible). C.C. and Richard Stalder had friends or family living in Arizona, Henderson NV, and Laguna, CA, those individuals had children that would have been around the same age as FLEK. I'm wondering if they would have any recollection of FLEK?
 
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