TX - 'Lori Ruff', Longview, WhtFem UP9863, *General Discussion and Theories* #5

[llywrch]

I've also tried to see if the "60 Minutes" story on identity theft from the 1980's is anyplace online, but I have not yet found it. If it was broadcast prior to 1988, it could certainly have helped this woman as well.

I remember watching that episode of 60 Minutes at my parents' house before I started college. (I attended college 1976-1980.) Which puts it in the early 70s, & even if my memory is failing, no later than 1978 when I moved out.

Maybe it was aired too early for LEK to have used for her own identity theft, but if I thought of it a year when I first became serious about this mystery, I'd be surprised if LEK hadn't thought of it when she decided to reinvent herself. And other posters have mentioned similar ways that she could have learned of these tricks.

As for the fact that she managed to find the right identity to steal, which seems to be too unusual to be just happenstance, all it takes is unusually good luck on her part: somehow learn of this unfortunate dead girl, notice she died in a state different from the one she was born in, & decide to exploit the knowledge. If finding such a combination is a one-in-a-million chance, that probability still means at least one person found that combination. (And AFAIK, there has been only one other case like this -- of a successful identity theft uncovered only thru the perpetrator's death.)

 

[sunnynz]

I'm really surprised to see so many posts about an identity broker or help from an organization. I thought the overall sentiment of the forum was that she read that book and used that to change her identity. I really don't think she had the gall to pull this off on her own.

I think the help could have been anything from a broker through to a boyfriend, through to gang members who knew about such things (remember the article about the woman who escaped the Outlaws gang with a new ID who had found the ID of a dead child at the suggestion of the gang (when we were researching Kimberly Doss).

 

[SavetheQueen]

I shared what PACER will provide on LEK's bankruptcy back in April of this year. The details were summarized in post #293 in the "General Discussion & Theories# 3" thread.

I wonder if that post should be moved to the "Timeline and Media Thread" -- or we should set up a similar thread for summaries of various data dumps (such as the bankruptcy summary, KdB's memories of meeting LEK, etc.) for convenient access. (It took a bit of searching for me to find that post -- & I knew it existed. What about newcomers who didn't know that the information existed, failed to find it, & end up repeating this work. I suspect that's what I actually did in researching her bankruptcy.)

Forgive my blondeness (and I'm not even really blonde!), but I can't seem to find that particular post. Did it already get moved?

*All statements are that of my own opinion unless otherwise specified. *

 

[Gardener1850]

I shared what PACER will provide on LEK's bankruptcy back in April of this year. The details were summarized in post #293 in the "General Discussion & Theories# 3" thread.

I wonder if that post should be moved to the "Timeline and Media Thread" -- or we should set up a similar thread for summaries of various data dumps (such as the bankruptcy summary, KdB's memories of meeting LEK, etc.) for convenient access. (It took a bit of searching for me to find that post -- & I knew it existed. What about newcomers who didn't know that the information existed, failed to find it, & end up repeating this work. I suspect that's what I actually did in researching her bankruptcy.)

I vote we start a thread for each type of document discussion --one for the Bankruptcy discussion, one for her traffic ticket(s) discussion, One for the FOIA reports, etc. But even just one "document" thread would help keep things more organized, IMO. I would start a thread but every thread I tried to start in this sub-forum was not approved. I'm not sure if new threads have been turned off here or if I just didn't have enough posts when I tried. So if anyone can start new thread here, please go ahead! I will assist finding all the posts that need to be linked/transferred to the appropriate thread.

 

[SavetheQueen]

I vote we start a thread for each type of document discussion --one for the Bankruptcy discussion, one for her traffic ticket(s) discussion, One for the FOIA reports, etc. But even just one "document" thread would help keep things more organized, IMO. I would start a thread but every thread I tried to start in this sub-forum was not approved. I'm not sure if new threads have been turned off here or if I just didn't have enough posts when I tried. So if anyone can start new thread here, please go ahead! I will assist finding all the posts that need to be linked/transferred to the appropriate thread.

I just need to make some flash cards. LOL!

I agree that a documents thread of some type would be great. I am setting out on a document scavenger hunt this coming week, and it would be great to know who has already gotten what, what's on the way, and what we need to retrieve.

*All statements are that of my own opinion unless otherwise specified. *

 

[Gardener1850]

I remember watching that episode of 60 Minutes at my parents' house before I started college. (I attended college 1976-1980.) Which puts it in the early 70s, & even if my memory is failing, no later than 1978 when I moved out.

Maybe it was aired too early for LEK to have used for her own identity theft, but if I thought of it a year when I first became serious about this mystery, I'd be surprised if LEK hadn't thought of it when she decided to reinvent herself. And other posters have mentioned similar ways that she could have learned of these tricks.

As for the fact that she managed to find the right identity to steal, which seems to be too unusual to be just happenstance, all it takes is unusually good luck on her part: somehow learn of this unfortunate dead girl, notice she died in a state different from the one she was born in, & decide to exploit the knowledge. If finding such a combination is a one-in-a-million chance, that probability still means at least one person found that combination. (And AFAIK, there has been only one other case like this -- of a successful identity theft uncovered only thru the perpetrator's death.)

BBM.
Indeed. Most we hear about are caught, although quite few have gotten away with identity theft or living under assumed names for several decades before being arrested. Just in a quick search I found these:
http://wfla.com/2016/07/21/pasco-sh...-about-identity-theft-case-spanning-20-years/
http://www.starbeacon.com/cnhi_netw...cle_911bd606-4860-5364-bedb-15fa4086cca8.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/2...ed-nearly-40-years-after-florida-killing.html

Reading those other cases though made me think of something. Most of these people were discovered by the use of technology--one was discovered by a family member of a deceased person doing genealogy on Ancestry. Is there anyway that the divorce Lori and Blake were going through could have revealed her fraud?
I mean, she stood in front of judges so many times as Lori but is there anything special in the divorce process where she could have been found out? Her last dealing with courts was in 1997, correct? Even in 1997 the computer databases were not as inter-connected as they were by 2010. I wonder if she feared going to jail on top of the divorce?

 

[OBrunhilde!]

I shared what PACER will provide on LEK's bankruptcy back in April of this year. The details were summarized in post #293 in the "General Discussion & Theories# 3" thread.

I wonder if that post should be moved to the "Timeline and Media Thread" -- or we should set up a similar thread for summaries of various data dumps (such as the bankruptcy summary, KdB's memories of meeting LEK, etc.) for convenient access. (It took a bit of searching for me to find that post -- & I knew it existed. What about newcomers who didn't know that the information existed, failed to find it, & end up repeating this work. I suspect that's what I actually did in researching her bankruptcy.)

i just re-read your post and learned a great deal -- thank you! Before I finished it, I got all excited and googled Dr. C. Cr@ne. The first one I came across was in Sandpoint, ID, which I thought was quite interesting. But you state that the correct Dr. Cr@ne is the one in Dallas. That makes sense, and is definitely the more likely of the two docs, but I thought I would just double check to see how sure you are about that? An additional event to tie LEK to ID would be something.

I really like the idea of having a place to store data summaries. I hate to think of the hours we have spent duplicating efforts!

 

[OBrunhilde!]

BBM.
Indeed. Most we hear about are caught, although quite few have gotten away with identity theft or living under assumed names for several decades before being arrested. Just in a quick search I found these:
http://wfla.com/2016/07/21/pasco-sh...-about-identity-theft-case-spanning-20-years/
http://www.starbeacon.com/cnhi_netw...cle_911bd606-4860-5364-bedb-15fa4086cca8.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/2...ed-nearly-40-years-after-florida-killing.html

Reading those other cases though made me think of something. Most of these people were discovered by the use of technology--one was discovered by a family member of a deceased person doing genealogy on Ancestry. Is there anyway that the divorce Lori and Blake were going through could have revealed her fraud?
I mean, she stood in front of judges so many times as Lori but is there anything special in the divorce process where she could have been found out? Her last dealing with courts was in 1997, correct? Even in 1997 the computer databases were not as inter-connected as they were by 2010. I wonder if she feared going to jail on top of the divorce?

That is an excellent point, Gardener. Since custody seemed like it was going to be an issue (am I alone in thinking this?, their lawyers would likely have had to delve more deeply into their respective backgrounds. Presumably, BR had a lifetime of demonstrated stability, accomplishments, plus his extended family for support. LEK didn't look quite so good on paper-- moving often, bankruptcy, questionable job history, and just nothing prior to 1988, so it really makes sense that she would be asked to be more forthcoming about her past. Are we even sure she graduated college?

 

[Gardener1850]

That is an excellent point, Gardener. Since custody seemed like it was going to be an issue (am I alone in thinking this?, their lawyers would likely have had to delve more deeply into their respective backgrounds. Presumably, BR had a lifetime of demonstrated stability, accomplishments, plus his extended family for support. LEK didn't look quite so good on paper-- moving often, bankruptcy, questionable job history, and just nothing prior to 1988, so it really makes sense that she would be asked to be more forthcoming about her past. Are we even sure she graduated college?

BBM.
I questioned her college before and I was told that they found her diploma and college transcripts at the house after her death--not sure the source of this info. Also, on the media thread someone posted a picture of her name in an alumni listing. I think she could have graduated but I'm really surprised more people who knew her during her college years have not come forward to talk about her.

 

[SavetheQueen]

I'm throwing the link to the live chat with Agent Velling up here for other new people:
http://live.seattletimes.com/Event/Live_chat_with_investigator_reporter_about_Jane_Doe_case?Page=1

This actually answered several questions, and gave me some clarification.

*All statements are that of my own opinion unless otherwise specified. *

 

[SavetheQueen]

I shared what PACER will provide on LEK's bankruptcy back in April of this year. The details were summarized in post #293 in the "General Discussion & Theories# 3" thread.

I wonder if that post should be moved to the "Timeline and Media Thread" -- or we should set up a similar thread for summaries of various data dumps (such as the bankruptcy summary, KdB's memories of meeting LEK, etc.) for convenient access. (It took a bit of searching for me to find that post -- & I knew it existed. What about newcomers who didn't know that the information existed, failed to find it, & end up repeating this work. I suspect that's what I actually did in researching her bankruptcy.)

Found it finally! Excellent post. I shall dig deeper into the bankruptcy and see what I can find.

Honestly, compared to my personal debt because of the oil bust, her list of creditors was small, and left me shaking my head. Bankruptcy seems like a drastic step. I guess it's all about perspective for some of us.


*All statements are that of my own opinion unless otherwise specified. *

 

[llywrch]

Forgive my blondeness (and I'm not even really blonde!), but I can't seem to find that particular post. Did it already get moved?

*All statements are that of my own opinion unless otherwise specified. *

(I just checked, & the post is still there.) Try this link -- http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ssion-and-Theories*-3&p=12212683#post12212683

 

[Hank36]

BBM.
Indeed. Most we hear about are caught, although quite few have gotten away with identity theft or living under assumed names for several decades before being arrested. Just in a quick search I found these:
http://wfla.com/2016/07/21/pasco-sh...-about-identity-theft-case-spanning-20-years/
http://www.starbeacon.com/cnhi_netw...cle_911bd606-4860-5364-bedb-15fa4086cca8.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/2...ed-nearly-40-years-after-florida-killing.html

Reading those other cases though made me think of something. Most of these people were discovered by the use of technology--one was discovered by a family member of a deceased person doing genealogy on Ancestry. Is there anyway that the divorce Lori and Blake were going through could have revealed her fraud?
I mean, she stood in front of judges so many times as Lori but is there anything special in the divorce process where she could have been found out? Her last dealing with courts was in 1997, correct? Even in 1997 the computer databases were not as inter-connected as they were by 2010. I wonder if she feared going to jail on top of the divorce?

I think that a major reason why her scheme seems so brilliant is because it was never found out within her lifetime, but dumb luck must still be considered a significant factor in its success. I suspect that her paranoia grew proportionate to the evolution of the information age.

As far as the divorce process is concerned--in a nasty divorce, assets are both hidden and aggressively pursued. I've wondered before if a forensic accounting was ever undertaken to determine whether she was living within her means for twenty-two years, but if there was, it doesn't appear that any red flags were ever raised (or disclosed.) But getting back to a divorce--off of the top of my head, siblings and parents are often asked to hold onto cash for a divorcing spouse in order to protect/launder assets, and Mr. Ruff's attorney could certainly have compelled "Lori" to disclose the names of her parents for that ery reason.

 

[Gardener1850]

I attempted to start a thread on her bankruptcy and got the same message that the post has to be approved by a mod. So I guess this forum is locked? I have been able to start threads elsewhere on WS.

 

[Hank36]

BBM.
I questioned her college before and I was told that they found her diploma and college transcripts at the house after her death--not sure the source of this info. Also, on the media thread someone posted a picture of her name in an alumni listing. I think she could have graduated but I'm really surprised more people who knew her during her college years have not come forward to talk about her.

I've probably said this before, but I would wager that prior to 1988, "Lori" had undergraduate credentials (and possibly a degree). Again--if investigators had asked the people who knew her about the sort of educational background she might have had, it could help narrow down the schools or programs she may have attended during this time. I do find it significant, however, that while most people who steal identities tend to do so in order to commit new crimes or avoid prosecution for past crimes--career criminals, in other words--the first thing "Lori" did was get a G.E.D. and begin to accumulate academic credentials. Going back to the relative "brilliance" of her scheme--another major reason she never got caught is because she simply stayed out of trouble with the law.

 

[Gardener1850]

I think that a major reason why her scheme seems so brilliant is because it was never found out within her lifetime, but dumb luck must still be considered a significant factor in its success. I suspect that her paranoia grew proportionate to the evolution of the information age.

As far as the divorce process is concerned--in a nasty divorce, assets are both hidden and aggressively pursued. I've wondered before if a forensic accounting was ever undertaken to determine whether she was living within her means for twenty-two years, but if there was, it doesn't appear that any red flags were ever raised (or disclosed.) But getting back to a divorce--off of the top of my head, siblings and parents are often asked to hold onto cash for a divorcing spouse in order to protect/launder assets, and Mr. Ruff's attorney could certainly have compelled "Lori" to disclose the names of her parents for that ery reason.

That makes a lot of sense then that she would be terrified of what Blake's attorney would find out. She did not choose to steal the identity of dead infant who also had dead parents--BST's parents are alive and would have swiftly denied knowing her. Lori could have been compelled to produce her BC and then it would be all over.

 

[llywrch]

Found it finally! Excellent post. I shall dig deeper into the bankruptcy and see what I can find.

Honestly, compared to my personal debt because of the oil bust, her list of creditors was small, and left me shaking my head. Bankruptcy seems like a drastic step. I guess it's all about perspective for some of us.

Thanks for the compliment!

Someone in that general thread brought up the likely explanation that LEK declared bankruptcy in order to reduce her non-college debt in order to afford her student loans. (I can't find that post, but I found it persuasive.)

Of course, if you were to examine the records & find another reason for her bankruptcy, that would be quite important.

I'm looking forward to seeing what more is in these records. It has the potential of providing us that profile of LEK some of us have wanted.

 

[Gardener1850]

I've probably said this before, but I would wager that prior to 1988, "Lori" had undergraduate credentials (and possibly a degree). Again--if investigators had asked the people who knew her about the sort of educational background she might have had, it could help narrow down the schools or programs she may have attended during this time. I do find it significant, however, that while most people who steal identities tend to do so in order to commit new crimes or avoid prosecution for past crimes--career criminals, in other words--the first thing "Lori" did was get a G.E.D. and begin to accumulate academic credentials. Going back to the relative "brilliance" of her scheme--another major reason she never got caught is because she simply stayed out of trouble with the law.

This is true--the people caught after decades of identity theft were almost all fugitives from the law--they had people looking for them for their crimes and they continued to break the law under their assumed names. We don't know whether Lori had people looking for her or not but I lean towards thinking she did not have too many people looking for her, or at least, not in the Dallas area. I have considered that she might have stolen more than one identity, though, because of how many mailboxes she had. Most seem to think she had all those mailboxes to keep in touch with someone but a common scheme of ID thieves is to open lines of credit and never pay it. By the time the debt goes to collections they are using a different identity. Maybe the "Lori" identity was actually the most clean one she had--she faced the consequences when the bankruptcy happened instead of just changing her identity again but we don't really know how she managed to pay the judgement off ahead of schedule while working the jobs she listed on her resume after 1997. If she had another false ID she could have continued to run up debt as that ID and then ditch it once "Lori's" debts were paid off.

 

[SavetheQueen]

This is true--the people caught after decades of identity theft were almost all fugitives from the law--they had people looking for them for their crimes and they continued to break the law under their assumed names. We don't know whether Lori had people looking for her or not but I lean towards thinking she did not have too many people looking for her, or at least, not in the Dallas area. I have considered that she might have stolen more than one identity, though, because of how many mailboxes she had. Most seem to think she had all those mailboxes to keep in touch with someone but a common scheme of ID thieves is to open lines of credit and never pay it. By the time the debt goes to collections they are using a different identity. Maybe the "Lori" identity was actually the most clean one she had--she faced the consequences when the bankruptcy happened instead of just changing her identity again but we don't really know how she managed to pay the judgement off ahead of schedule while working the jobs she listed on her resume after 1997. If she had another false ID she could have continued to run up debt as that ID and then ditch it once "Lori's" debts were paid off.

You raise a good point. It seems that a general consensus is that she had some type of funding or financial backing. But what if she just had stolen credit from other identities financing "Lori"?

*All statements are that of my own opinion unless otherwise specified. *

 

[llywrch]

BBM.
Indeed. Most we hear about are caught, although quite few have gotten away with identity theft or living under assumed names for several decades before being arrested. Just in a quick search I found these:
http://wfla.com/2016/07/21/pasco-sh...-about-identity-theft-case-spanning-20-years/
http://www.starbeacon.com/cnhi_netw...cle_911bd606-4860-5364-bedb-15fa4086cca8.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/2...ed-nearly-40-years-after-florida-killing.html

Reading those other cases though made me think of something. Most of these people were discovered by the use of technology--one was discovered by a family member of a deceased person doing genealogy on Ancestry. Is there anyway that the divorce Lori and Blake were going through could have revealed her fraud?
I mean, she stood in front of judges so many times as Lori but is there anything special in the divorce process where she could have been found out? Her last dealing with courts was in 1997, correct? Even in 1997 the computer databases were not as inter-connected as they were by 2010. I wonder if she feared going to jail on top of the divorce?

I should have written "best I can remember". I do remember one of these cases, but the one I was thinking of was in Ohio: where a machinist committed suicide, & upon settling his estate it was discovered he took the identity of a boy who died in the late 1940s. I don't remember the man's name, but I know it will be familiar to at least one person here since I learned of that case from a post here.

As for discovery in divorce... IANAL, but I figure divorce cases drag out as much stuff as either side is motivated to drag out & can afford to find out. I know Blake's BIL was eager to find out anything about her past, & a divorce case would be enough motivation to go looking. Who knows what he might have found asking people in 2010, when memories were a little more fresh than now? Or maybe he couldn't get any further than Velling had, who did have a lot more resources than one of the Ruffs, or a private investigator they hired.

Of course, we've since discovered the Ruffs don't have as much money as we thought, so maybe they would have been content with doing just enough to secure the divorce & get custody of the daughter.